The NPR Politics Podcast - A New Special Counsel Will Oversee Investigations Into Donald Trump

Episode Date: November 18, 2022

Attorney General Merrick Garland has named Jack Smith, the Justice Department's former public integrity chief, to oversee the investigations into the former president.This episode: White House correspondent Tamara Keith, senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro, and national justice correspondent Carrie Johnson.This episode was produced by Elena Moore and Casey Morell. It was edited by Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Fact-checking by Katherine Swartz.Unlock access to this and other bonus content by supporting The NPR Politics Podcast+. Sign up via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. The time now is 3.55 p.m. Eastern on Friday, November 18th. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent. And I'm Carrie Johnson, national justice correspondent. This afternoon, Attorney General Merrick Garland announced that he has appointed a special counsel to determine whether charges should be filed in two ongoing investigations involving the former president, Donald Trump. Based on recent developments, including the former president's announcement that he is a candidate for president in the next election and the sitting president's stated intention to be a candidate as well, I have concluded that it is in the public interest to appoint a special counsel. Such an appointment underscores the Department's commitment to both independence and accountability

in particularly sensitive matters. It also allows prosecutors and agents to continue their work expeditiously and to make decisions indisputably guided only by the facts and the law. This announcement comes just days after control of Congress was established and Trump announced his plan to run for election again. Carrie, what investigations in particular is this special counsel going to be overseeing? Well, for starters, the special counsel is going to be overseeing the ongoing investigation into the sensitive material the FBI found at Mar-a-Lago, former President Donald Trump's resort,

earlier this year, as well as possible obstruction of justice related to that information. Remember, DOJ had tried for months and months and months to get the former president to turn over those materials, which it says belongs to the National Archives and in very secure places, not a resort in Florida. But Trump stonewalled, and now this investigation has become a very serious criminal and national security probe. The second thing the special counsel will do is oversee investigations of the attempt to interfere with a peaceful transfer of power in an effort to disrupt the electoral count around and on January 6, 2021. have already gotten underway, of people who broke into the Capitol, beat up police officers that day, or even these ongoing seditious conspiracy cases. Rather, it's just key aspects of the January 6th probe, including that investigation into the fake slates of electors. So, Carrie, who is the counsel exactly? We know it's a man named Jack Smith, but what's his background?

Yeah, he's a veteran prosecutor at Domenico. I met him back in the Justice Department when he led the Public Integrity Unit after a scandal involving the botched prosecution of the late Senator Ted Stevens in the Obama years. But Jack Smith also worked as a prosecutor in Brooklyn and in Tennessee. And for the last several years, he's been a war crimes prosecutor in overseeing war crimes cases in The Hague, in the Netherlands, involving Kosovo. So he's got a lot of experience. He's a known quantity at the highest levels of the Justice Department. They have respect for him, and they think he can get this job done relatively quickly. Yeah, it sounds like he's somebody with a lot of experience at a high level in dealing with politics. I mean, he took over that unit, right, in trying to deal with political investigations,

you know, not just after the Ted Stevens stuff, but there was a congressman from Arizona, Rick Renzi, right, who wound up serving three years in prison because of it, even though people thought that his, I guess, his office had gone a little light on some politicians. But we'll see what happens in this case. You know, Jack Smith is now the third special counsel in recent memory. Remember how many times we talked about Robert Mueller in the Trump administration in his investigation of Russian interference in the election in 2016? We have a current special counsel, John Durham, who has brought two prosecutions to trial. He's lost both of those cases, and he's believed to be writing a report. And now we have a third, Jack Smith,

investigating these matters that are very close to former President Donald Trump and his inner circle, too. So just technically, how does this work? Like, how is it different to have a special counsel in place rather than the Justice Department just continuing to move forward a pace with its investigations as it had been? Sure. Attorney General Merrick Garland said today he's not going to be involved in the day-to-day supervision of Special Counsel Jack Smith and what he's up to. But there are actually regulations with respect to the special counsel. So if the special counsel recommends that somebody be charged and the attorney general disagrees under those regulations, the attorney general would have to notify members of Congress if he overrules the judgment of the

special counsel. So there's an additional layer of notification there that's not always the case in regular old prosecutions. Well, it's funny because this phrase special counsel, I think that a lot of Republicans are interpreting it as somehow, you know, being something like Captain America or something and having like special powers, when it's not necessarily the case. And it seems that Merrick Garland, correct me if I'm wrong here, seemed like he was trying to depoliticize the situation, or at least make it less political, because Trump announced for president a few days ago. Yeah, that's exactly right, Domenico, not just that Trump announced for president a few days ago. Yeah, that's exactly right, Domenico. Not just that Trump announced for president a few days ago, but that President Biden keeps saying he's inclined to run again, too.

And that could present the appearance of a conflict. So bringing in this special counsel will add another layer in the chain of command. And the attorney general says that he's committed to providing Jack Smith with whatever resources he needs. But, you know, there are really good people in the U.S. Attorney's Office here in Washington, D.C., and the one in Florida that has been involved in the Mar-a-Lago matter. And so we expect at this point for a lot of those people to keep working on these cases. All right, we're going to take a quick break. And when we get back, what this means politically.

And we're back. And Carrie, you mentioned that many of the people currently involved in these investigations are expected to move on to the special counsel's team and continue their work. I'm wondering if you have any sense of timing or speed. The Mueller investigation, the Durham investigation, they took a really long time. They did take a really long time. I had heard from people who used to work at the Justice Department that they were concerned as rumors about a special counsel began to emerge over the last six months or so about the timing and the pace. The new special counsel, Jack Smith, said today in a statement that he's going to pursue this work without pause. It will not flag. The pace will not flag. And the attorney general said that given Jack Smith's reputation and experience as a prosecutor and given how much work has already been done on both these

investigations, he is confident that this naming of a special counsel will not cause an undue delay. Domenico, former President Trump's team has given a statement, or actually, it looks like Trump himself spoke to Fox News Digital. And he said, quote, I have been going through this for six years, for six years, I have been going through this, and I am not going to go through it anymore, adding, and I hope the Republicans have been going through this and I am not going to go through it anymore, adding, and I hope the Republicans have the courage to fight this. Well, neither he nor the Republicans in Congress have the ability to stop it. You know, they can certainly throw up as many roadblocks as they want to try to say politically, publicly, make a PR

statement about how this is, you this is politics or Biden is trying to weaponize the Department of Justice. But as we said earlier, it seems more of an effort to depoliticize the situation, yet Republicans are sort of taking it and running in the opposite direction, which is not all too surprising. I mean, we heard from Ted Cruz, the senator from Texas, who also said that Biden is weaponizing the Department of Justice and political opponents said that this is Trump derangement syndrome but with a badge and a gun, which is not unlike stuff we've heard prior. We know that Republicans in the House are going to have a bigger megaphone than they had in the last congress because they will be running these investigations because they're going to be running the House with a small majority. But that's going to mean lots of different kinds of investigations from oversight of the Justice Department, potential impeachment of Justice Department or other Biden administration officials, as some have threatened to do. Of course, that will go nowhere in a Senate that's

controlled by the Democrats still. And of course, this investigation that's potentially likely into President Biden's son, Hunter, as Republicans try to embarrass Biden and the Biden administration. Over at the White House, Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre was asked about Trump's comments about the special counsel. And she said, quote, we do not politicize the Department of Justice. So, Carrie, the White House has been pretty consistent on that idea throughout the Biden presidency. But is there true independence there? In situations like these over the last 15 years or so that I've covered the Justice Department, sometimes the White House will find out through a public announcement by the Justice Department. And every so often, there'll be a call around the same time as the public announcement between a high-level official

at DOJ and the White House Counsel's Office, the top lawyer inside the White House, that would serve as a notification. But there really is not a lot of advance notice or special notice to the White House that would defeat the entire purpose of trying to create a layer or a patina of independence here by the special counsel. Domenico, before we go, I do want to get to the politics here. Do you have any sense of whether there is a likely clear cut impact on the former president's campaign to be president again? You know, the former president continues to be under this cloud of investigation, whether it's this special prosecutor, whether it's criminal investigations in other places, whether it's civil investigations like one in New York State, whether it's the one in Georgia that's looking into how much he played into trying to pressure

officials to try to overturn the election results in 2020. So he's under a lot of that kind of cloud of drama and chaos. We saw that his grip on the Republican Party started to slip some last summer with the January 6th committee's revelations during the summer. But then it got tighter when the FBI searched his home in Florida. But after these midterm elections and the losses that Trump has suffered, this is another reason why Republicans who don't want Trump to be president again can say in an argument to the base that do you want this drama that hasn't actually politically worked out for us in purple states and swing districts, or do you want someone new, someone different, someone who can look to the future?

Carrie, I want to let you close this out for us. What are you watching for as this now becomes a special counsel investigation? Well, you know, even though the attorney general and the new special counsel say there won't be a big delay here, I must say that there is a special math and it's Justice Department math. And every time you think that the prosecutors are ready to do something, it can take a few weeks or a few months or many months to actually see it happen and become public. And with this kind of set of investigations, any delay would bump closer and closer to the 2024 presidential election. Well, Carrie, I know you need to go get on the radio. And Domenico, thank you so much as well. Oh, happy to do it. You've done it. Now, we taped a whole other podcast today before this news broke. And yes, that podcast included everyone's favorite Friday segment, Can't Let It Go. And we didn't want to let that go and send you into the weekend without that.

So when we come back, our Asma Khalid, Claudia Gonzalez, and Deirdre Walsh will tell us what they can't stop thinking about. More in a moment. And we're back. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. I'm Claudia Grisales. I cover Congress. I'm Deirdre Walsh. I also cover Congress. And it is time now to end the show like we do every week with Can't Let It Go. That's the part of the show where we talk about the things that we just cannot stop thinking about, politics or otherwise. And Claudia, why don't you kick it off?

Yeah, so I can't let go of The Crown. I just finished binging the last season. I've only seen the first episode of the new season. No, you must. It's been a busy time, Claudia. I'm kind of amazed. This is The Crown. This is the monarchy. These are priorities. I know. So I encourage you. Normally I would. This is the crown. This is the monarchy. These are priorities.

I know. So I encourage you. Normally I would. Get back with it. Yes. Season one is fabulous. There is a jarring transition when they switch casts. I don't like it.

Like I really got it. But you binged the new season that just came out. Yes, I binged it. And by the way, I stretched it out for a week. Usually I would do it over a weekend and I stretched it out. I was like, I can't let this end so fast. But now I'm like in my post-binge depression. I don't know what to do with myself now. Okay. So without giving us any spoilers, how would you compare it to previous seasons? Okay. So I think, I'm sorry, I feel like it was too sympathetic to

Prince Charles. They cast Dominic West from The Wire. The last one was not. I saw the last season and he did not come off as a nice person. He did not. I like that better. I like that better. So I didn't like Dominic West. He's too sympathetic for Prince Charles.

I wonder if they're sucking up to the new king. Maybe they're right. I think they are. The rumors are they are not watching this season. This is a painful season. That's the rumor. They are not watching it? That's the word from the crown.

They started it with the initial season. Oh, come on. They're watching. I don't believe that. I know. It's a very painful season. They go through. Is it Anas Horribles or whatever, the horrible year?

So that's a lot of the focus. So it is a tough season to watch. I cannot wait for the next season. Oh, I could see how the kids couldn't watch. That's tough because of the focus. So it is a tough season to watch. I cannot wait. Oh, I could see how the kids couldn't watch. That's tough because it's all about Diana. Yes. Yeah. That's, I mean. And the falling apart and all that. It was a terrible era for them. But yeah, I am going to watch too, but I haven't started.

Okay. Well, thank you for my motivation. Now I know I'm off next week, so. Do it, do it. We'll save some of that for airplane watching as we fly out for Thanksgiving. Thank you for that tip. All right, Deirdre, what about you? So as a former high school soccer player, the thing I cannot let go of is the World Cup news from this morning. So I admit I don't watch a lot of soccer or as a lot of people call it football, depending on where you live. Yeah. But I do tune into the World Cup.

I find it so fun to watch. It's like the tradition from all these different places around the world and their fans are so amazing. But this morning, the World Cup banned serving beer in Qatar. Oh, I saw this headline. I think I saw it on Twitter. Yeah. So obviously, there was already a lot of controversy about holding the World Cup in Qatar. Terrible human rights records, people dying, constructing the stadiums. So the government of Qatar strictly controls who serves alcohol and where. Qatar initially allowed the sale of alcoholic beverages at the World Cup, but they reversed themselves after coming under pressure from those who live in the country and the tradition in the country not to sell beer at these events. But Budweiser was one of the big

sponsors for the World Cup. And when the news came out, they tweeted, this is awkward. Wow. I mean, one thing I will say here to play devil's advocate a bit, let's say, have you ever been on a subway in England after a big football match? No. It's mayhem because everyone's so drunk. So I will just say that if they could like notch it down a tad. Look, I'm not calling for a prohibition, but, you know, they are so wild that if I could temper it down a small little bit from that, I'd be like, all right. Asma, what can you not let go of?

So you'll probably know that Taylor Swift has had ticket sales for her upcoming tour. If you did not know that, I will say you've not been listening to our wonderful producer, Elena, who's been trying to snag some of those tickets. Who isn't trying? I am very sorry to say that Elena was not able to snag a ticket through the sales because essentially what happened is that like there was utter, utter madness with Ticketmaster, who, you know, essentially controls all of these sales. There was a huge fiasco. There was this temporary outage on the Ticketmaster website. Long wait times.

All these fans super frustrated. And then Ticketmaster decided to long wait times, all these fans, super frustrated. And then Ticketmaster decided to cancel its public sale. Like, I mean, literally, people have been waiting for this to happen. It just suddenly announced it was not going to do this. And I guess my question has been, I mean, there's no other company where you can buy a ticket from, right? Like Ticketmaster has a full on monopoly, but for some reason, we don't call it a monopoly. There's really no other place you can go to buy your tickets. And I feel like there's all this big outcry always from lawmakers about other places that have monopolies.

And for a long time, ticket masters just been able to do its thing. But now we've suddenly seen attorneys general. I think it was Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar speaking up. All these politicos are saying they want to do something about Ticketmaster. So who knows? Maybe Taylor Swift is the person that will ultimately get us past these crazy fees and rules and open up the marketplace. Instagram earlier today and said that it has been excruciating for her to watch these mistakes happen, that it's really difficult for her to trust an outside entity with these relationships and loyalties that she has with her fans. She also says to those who didn't get tickets, all I can say is my hope is to provide more opportunities for us all to get together and

sing these songs. No word on more tickets, though. So sorry. Sorry for you all to get together and sing these songs. No word on more tickets, though. So sorry. Sorry for you all. She just needs to do more Tiny Dust. Several more. I don't know. I feel like with the money you could make promoting a Taylor Swift tour, there's got to be somebody else to get in the marketplace.

But I'm not an expert on that. All right. Well, that is a wrap for today. Our executive producer is Mathoni Maturi. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our producers are Elena Moore and Casey Morrell. Thanks to Christian Depp-Calamore, Brandon Carter, Lexi Schipitel, Juma Say, and Catherine Swartz. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. I'm Claudia Grisales. I cover Congress.

I'm Deirdre Walsh. I also cover Congress. And thank you all, as always, for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.