The NPR Politics Podcast - Biden, Sanders Debate One-On-One As Coronavirus Upends The Race

Episode Date: March 16, 2020

Former Vice President Joe Biden made big news, committing to have a woman as his running mate. Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders said it would be his "strong tendency." Biden and Sanders started Sunday night's debate with an elbow bump and responded to the coronavirus crisis. They got into detailed arguments over their records on a range of issues, from bankruptcy to immigration.This episode: political reporter Danielle Kurtzleben, political correspondent Asma Khalid, and national political correspondent Mara Liasson.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hey there, it is the NPR Politics Podcast. I am Danielle Kurtzleben. I cover the presidential campaign. I'm Asma Khalid. I also cover the presidential campaign. And I'm Mara Liason, national political correspondent. All right. It is Sunday, March 15th, 10.23 p.m. and the CNN Univision debate featuring former Vice President Joe Biden and Senator Bernie Sanders has just wrapped up. And guys, it was the first debate where it was just the two of them on the stage and also no audience this time. Woohoo! That meant for me, I was not sitting in a press filing center. Instead, I could enjoy this debate while eating ice cream and cookies on my sofa, which is exactly what I did. That's true.

Although we should add this is under grave circumstances. The nation is, the world is under threat from the coronavirus. And let's talk about this. You know, no audience, no press. How do we feel like that affected the tone of what happened tonight and the substance? I think it was an advantage for both of these men. Joe Biden turned in his most crisp and coherent performance in any of the debates so far. I think he benefited, first of all, from the crisis, because his whole strategy was to showcase himself as someone who can be commander in chief and president. With all those candidates on the stage previously, sometimes he had trouble kind of getting in the game. But this time, it was just him and Sanders. And I think both of them succeeded in what they wanted to do.

Right. There was no one stumbling over each other and stepping on each other's words tonight. I got to say, though, to zoom out before tonight's debate, I was wondering how would this work? Because coronavirus is occupying all of our brains right now. Like, is this the most helpful thing for a country facing a pandemic? What, to have a debate? It's certainly the most helpful thing for Joe Biden, whose whole strategy was, I would be in the Situation Room. Did I mention that I would be in the Situation Room?

All the time I spent in the Situation Room when I was in the White House with Barack Obama, we sat in the Situation Room. I would call a meeting in the Situation Room of all the experts in America dealing with this crisis. I would sit them down and I would do exactly what we did then. I mean, his goal was to help people imagine him as the president of the United States.

Really also traditional campaigning has ground to a halt. These candidates are not knocking on doors anymore. They're not holding rallies. And yet there are still primaries that are going to take place on Tuesday. And so the only thing that they have largely been able to campaign or talk about is the coronavirus. You know, when they give speeches, that's the only thing they're talking about. And so I think for both of them, it's an opportunity to essentially talk about how they would differentiate themselves and govern differently than the decisions that President Trump is currently taking. Right. Well, so let's get at exactly what they said about the coronavirus. A huge chunk of the first part of the debate was about this virus

and what these two men said they would do to combat it. Here's what Joe Biden said. First of all, I have to take care of those who, in fact, are exposed or likely to be exposed to the virus. And that means we have to do testing. We have to get the testing kits up and ready. I would have the World Health Organization. I take advantage of the test kits they have available to us, even though the president says a million or more are coming. Let's just get all the tests we can done as quickly as we can.

So Biden kind of summing up what he wants to do, a sort of checklist running thing he was doing. Now, here's what Senator Bernie Sanders said. This is an unprecedented moment in American history. Now, here's what Senator Bernie Sanders said. This is an unprecedented moment in American history. Now, I obviously believe in Medicare for all. I will fight for that as president. But right now, in this emergency, I want every person in this country to understand that when you get sick, you go to the doctor. When you get sick, if you have the virus, that will be paid for. Do not worry about the cost right now because we're in the middle of a national emergency. So what did you two make of these two different approaches?

Sanders pivoting to Medicare for all for part of his answer and Biden's sort of more crisis checklist. I mean, Biden certainly has operational experience in a crisis, and he made that very clear. He spoke about Ebola and having to deal with that under the Obama administration multiple times tonight. And if people are looking, you know, if people are anxious right now, which we get the sense that many folks are anxious, and they are looking for clear level headed leadership. That was what Joe Biden was trying to present tonight. You know, debates never occur on a level playing field. And this one certainly didn't. Biden is way ahead. There are a lot of Democrats who think he just about has the nomination wrapped up. So the bar for him tonight was very low. Even so, I think he more than cleared it. And Sanders, even though I think he presented his

positions consistently and vigorously all night long, he had to pull off a miracle tonight to change the trajectory of this nominating battle. He had to somehow off a miracle tonight to change the trajectory of this nominating battle. He had to somehow totally reverse the momentum that Biden has. And I think he needed a real Biden collapse to do that. And he couldn't force one to happen. And the difficulty also is that what he is arguing for is a radical change to the health care system at a moment of health care crisis. I mean, he is dealing with

this against the backdrop of a moment people feel a lot of anxiety. And so, you know, calling for Medicare for All under any normal situation may be a sort of ideological challenge, but doing it right now poses unique challenges. How in God's name does it happen that we end up with 87 million people who are uninsured or underinsured and there are people who are watching this program tonight and say, I'm not feeling well. Should I go to the doctor? But I can't afford to go to the doctor. What happens if I am sick? It's going to cost thousands of dollars for treatment. Who's going to feed my kids? We are the only major country on earth not to guarantee health care to all people. We're spending so much money, and yet we are not even prepared for this pandemic.

Yeah. And Joe Biden didn't buy into the rationale that this was about health insurance, at least not right now. He pointed out that Italy has a single-payer system, and they weren't ready for this. He talked about paying attention to the crisis right now and then moving on to making sure everybody has universal health care. People are looking for results, not a revolution. They want to deal with the results they need right now. And we can do that by making sure that we make everybody whole who has been so badly hurt in terms of their they lose the job, in terms of not having the ability to care for their children, in terms of the health care costs that they have related to this crisis. We can't make them whole now.

Going into tonight's debate, Sanders and Biden had largely avoided attacking each other over coronavirus. And I was wondering how on earth will they have much to differ on about this? Because it might appear to be poor form to be politicizing this crisis. I mean, do you think they pulled off a debate, a substantive debate over coronavirus without maybe turning voters off? Yeah, because they didn't really disagree about coronavirus. They really went at it hammer and tongs about Social Security, the vote for the bankruptcy bill, the vote for the Iraq war. There were plenty of differences, but not necessarily on coronavirus. Right. Yeah, there was not much disagreement about the severity of the crisis. And they were, in fact, both asked about what precautions they're taking. And, you know,

they talked about using a lot of soap, not shaking hands, using hand sanitizer. Of course, good advice for you as a general listener of this podcast to also be abiding by. Most definitely. I think I think we can all agree on that. All right. Well, for now, we're going to take a quick break. And when we get back, all those things that Mara was saying they disagreed on and then some, we're going to get back to other key moments from the debate. Change is hard. Transitions can be even harder. But they're also an opportunity to explore and discover and reimagine things you thought you knew.

I'm Manoush Zomorodi, the new host of NPR's TED Radio Hour. And with all this in mind, we've decided to make my entire first episode about reinvention. Subscribe or listen right now. And we are back and let's get to some big news that was made tonight. Joe Biden made a commitment during the debate to name a woman as his running mate if he were chosen as the nominee. If I'm elected president, my cabinet, my administration will look like the country. And I commit that I will, in fact, appoint a, I'll pick a woman to be vice president. There are a number of women who are qualified to be president tomorrow.

I would pick a woman to be my vice president. Now, Bernie Sanders was also pushed on this, and he didn't quite commit to it, but came close. In all likelihood, I will. For me, it's not just nominating a woman. It is making sure that we have a progressive women and there are progressive women out there. So my very strong tendency is to move in that direction. All right. So were we surprised by this, guys? Not at all. The discussion of which female person that should be on the ticket with Joe Biden is just raging in the Democratic world. And everyone has their favorite. But it is considered to be a fait accompli.

Asma, how meaningful do you feel it is, the sort of little sliver of daylight there was between Biden and Sanders here? I don't know that it's particularly meaningful. I mean, Biden has already indicated and had been indicating for a while that in all likelihood, he would choose a woman as his running mate. I don't know that anyone really over interpreted that little sliver of a differentiation between choose a woman as my running mate, or I would, in all likelihood, choose a woman. I agree with that. That wasn't really important. What was significant, though, differentiation between choose a woman as my running mate, or I would, in all likelihood, choose a woman as my running mate. Yeah, I agree with that. That wasn't really important. What was significant, though, is that Sanders supporters are already mounting a pretty strong argument that they care about

how progressive Joe Biden's choice is, because they don't consider him progressive enough. So one of the things they feel they want to make the ticket more appealing to Sanders voters is someone who they consider to be a progressive vice president. Well, let's get at some of these other ways that Joe Biden seems to be making an appeal to the progressive wing of the party. He brought up a couple of policy areas tonight in the area of college tuition, in the area of bankruptcy. So Asma, tell us a little more about what kind of outreach he seems to be doing. I mean, these were tangible overtures that he was trying to make. You know, senior Biden campaign officials before the debate even kicked off

made a point of highlighting these particular issues, saying that they decided to endorse Warren's bankruptcy bill. This is something that Elizabeth Warren has touted for years and years. And you could argue it's one of the central reasons she got into politics. And then they say that they made this overture to decide to come out with a plan that would offer free tuition, tuition-free college to any families making less than $125,000. They say this was also inspired by Bernie Sanders. I think what was interesting to me, though, is that the general tone of the second half of the debate did not seem so conciliatory. You know, Bernie Sanders certainly came at Biden pretty aggressively. They, you know, disagreed over long records that they've

had in the Senate over the years, despite the fact that Biden's camp seemed to say that, hey, we are trying to unite the party. They seem to be trying to wrap things up and put a bow on it neatly. You know, I interpreted that as Sanders' last stand. During those attacks, sometimes Biden had a big smile on his face. He seemed pretty relaxed and confident. He didn't seem embattled at all. And this was Sanders' last chance to change the dynamic of this race. But I think it was important. Anybody who wins a nomination has to bring the supporters of the people they just beat into their column. And they do that by absorbing the issues or arguments that those people are making. And, you know, he just took Elizabeth Warren's bankruptcy bill. He just took a piece of Bernie Sanders' free public college plan. He also went through a whole list of

healthcare should be a right, not a privilege. We should have a Green New Deal, campaign finance reform, forgiveness of student loans. I think he went through a whole list of things to say, I am more progressive than you think I am. And here's why. And this isn't just sort of goodwill, you know, gestures. This is the fact that Joe Biden, if he is to be the nominee, has consistently struggled with winning young voters. And there are real concerns in the Democratic Party that they don't want to see a repeat of what happened in 2016, when a number of young voters who supported Sanders decided to stay home and not vote for anybody in November. You know, they are acutely aware of that. And the Biden campaign, certainly, you know, these are not just things that they are doing out of sort of good intentions. There's a sense that he needs

to bring in the Sanders progressives of the party, young folks in particular. Right. Even if Bernie couldn't get them to turn out, the ones that do turn out, Biden wants to make sure that he can get them to vote for him, too. You know, listen, Democrats, whichever of these guys becomes the nominee, Biden certainly has the upper hand on that right now. Whichever one wins, the Democratic Party wants to win in November. I mean, what does the party need coming from these guys moving ahead? If Joe Biden becomes the nominee, it needs Bernie Sanders to be committed to him in a way that many Democrats feel he was not committed to Hillary Clinton. It needs for this battle not to go on all the way till Milwaukee,

and it needs to have Sanders and Biden kind of singing from the same lyric sheet pretty soon. I think tonight was a start. There were some Democrats who were a little uncomfortable by how much time the two of them spent fighting over Social Security and the Iraq war. But it needs the party to come together as soon as possible, because the whole time they've been fighting this out, Donald Trump has had a huge head start on the general election. All right, well, that is a wrap for today. We will be back tomorrow at 5pm. I'm Danielle Kurtzleben. I cover the presidentialpm. I'm Danielle Kurtzleben.

I cover the presidential campaign. I'm Asma Khalid. I also cover the presidential campaign. And I'm Mara Liason, national political correspondent. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.