The NPR Politics Podcast - Can Harris Assuage European Allies' Fears In Munich?

Episode Date: February 15, 2024

Vice President Kamala Harris is in Germany this week for the Munich Security Conference. Harris is tasked with reassuring European allies the U.S. remains committed to their safety despite Congress' failed attempts to fund Ukraine, and renewed threats to NATO members by former president Donald Trump. This episode: national political correspondents Sarah McCammon & Danielle Kurtzleben, and White House correspondent Asma Khalid.This podcast was produced by Jeongyoon Han, Casey Morell & Kelli Wessinger. Our editor is Erica Morrison. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Listen to every episode of the NPR Politics Podcast sponsor-free, unlock access to bonus episodes with more from the NPR Politics team, and support public media when you sign up for The NPR Politics Podcast+ at plus.npr.org/politics.Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

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Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Sarah McCammon. I cover the presidential campaign. I'm Danielle Kurtzleben. I also cover the presidential campaign. And I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. Vice President Kamala Harris is in Munich this week for a conference on global security, the week after Republicans rejected a border bill that would have included military funding for Ukraine. Asma, you're there in Germany with Vice President Harris for the Munich Security Conference. What's it been like so far and what's on the vice president's schedule?

The VP is prepping for what is being billed as a major foreign policy speech that she's delivering here tomorrow in Munich. You know, she arrived earlier today and as she got up, I was going to say I wanted to share the story with you because I feel like one of the things about having a woman in this job is I think a lot of foreign leaders don't always have a clear sense of how to relate to her and what her role is. And so she's coming down off of Air Force Two in Munich to attend this very high-level security conference. And one of the ministers here in Germany welcomes her with a heart-shaped cookie cake. And some of the other journalists and I were wondering afterwards, like, can you imagine a scenario in which, I don't know, Donald Trump, Mike Pence or someone else would have been, you know, welcomed with a heart-shaped cookie cake? It feels very Valentine's Day, doesn't it?

But to me, it just also signifies that there has been a lot of curiosity about what the vice president is, what she represents on the international stage, not just, you know, back home domestically about who she is. It's the sort of thing you kind of want to roll your eyes at and that there is definitely a gender angle to, but also if you're Vice President Harris and you get a cookie cake from a foreign minister, I mean, beyond wondering if you're expected to finish it, I imagine you also kind of wonder slash hope not to read too much into this, but like, I hope you take me seriously because this conference is deathly serious. There is a lot at stake. And, you know, she's coming here to Europe at a really pivotal moment. There are a lot of questions from European leaders about

the future of American politics, given that they don't know who could be president after the November elections. But also, I think a lot of questions about the U.S. commitment to Europe. You know, President Biden came into this White House pledging that America was back, that the transatlantic alliance is back. And now, you know, there's a lot of uncertainty about whether or not the White House can actually keep that commitment, given, you know, Congress has not been able to pass additional funding for Ukraine. And so even if Biden says he will be there for Ukraine for as long as it takes, how can he really keep that pledge if he can't back it up with money? What is Harris's message going to be and how is she going to reassure European leaders, given this backdrop, given this context of what's happening at home? You know, experts tell me that is the fundamental mission for Harris here, is to reassure European allies. You know, her staff says that she will also try to present

a contrast, presumably with Donald Trump, given all that has been going on domestically, showing that Americans do believe in the value of alliances. They do believe in NATO. But this is all happening at a moment in time in which we have seen Donald Trump's vision of an isolationist America first policy increasingly popular amongst a flank of the Republican Party. I mean, this is not a fringe idea, necessarily. You're seeing a number of House Republicans endorse this. And I do think there are serious questions in Europe about how long the U.S. will be a reliable, consistent partner. And, you know, you have to imagine that there is both a diplomatic and a domestic

aspect to this, right? Because Kamala Harris is delivering this major important foreign policy address at this important conference. And this can be seen as a way of her showing the American people who might be listening to watching news coverage that Kamala Harris does big, important international things and is every bit as capable as Joe Biden is of being a figurehead of being the face slash voice of America overseas. And furthermore, that's not only a thing you want to telegraph to voters, which is, of course, important, but to foreign leaders to show that, for example, should the aging president, God forbid, should something happen to him, or should Kamala Harris just be needed to step up a bit more under an older president in the future, should he be reelected, to sort of introduce her to these leaders and say, she can also be trusted on foreign policy to come talk to you, to come lead on a global stage.

She's, yeah, to say she's got this, essentially. Danielle, we heard Asma mention a moment ago, former President Trump's longstanding isolationist rhetoric. European leaders have no doubt heard his recent comments suggesting that he would encourage Russia to attack U.S. allies, for example, if they didn't contribute to the joint security arrangement of NATO. What might that mean for the kinds of conversations that Harris is having in Munich? I mean, you've got to imagine, I am not a European leader, but if I were one, I would be very, very, very nervous because, yes, not only the NATO comments, but also the fact that there is so much tension, uncertainty, to say the least, in Congress about providing aid to Ukraine as it defends itself against Russia. a no-brainer. Looking at that and looking at the word I think of often is sclerotic

nature of American politics these days, where we have a pretty relatively evenly divided country, our elections are very close, but with the parties pulling further away from each other, the meaning of any given election means a great deal. So if you're a European leader, you're watching our elections and you're not thinking, well, good old steady America, they always come through. Now you're watching and going, wow, America isn't as steady as it used to be. Really, what it does on this global stage could mean wildly different things depending on who the leader is. And that has not been the case in the past. I was speaking earlier with a former German ambassador. His name is Wolfgang Ischinger. And you don't often hear diplomats, I will say, speak so bluntly about politics in another country. But he told me. And let me be very frank. I don't think that it is in the interest of America's European allies to see Donald Trump reelected.

It was a very blunt assessment. And he told me that increasingly Europeans are thinking about a potential plan B. You know, what will they do if the United States necessarily can't be this reliable, credible partner in the future? That being said, I don't think Europe's in a position to go it alone without the United States anytime in the near future, is what experts tell me, but they are thinking about this. And that speaks to the fact that they just don't know what will happen given the ebbs and flows and rapid polarization of American politics. We're going to talk more in a moment about that

uncertainty and the pressure it puts on Vice President Harris in Munich and what's happening here in the U.S. But first, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. And we're back. I want to talk more about Harris's role as vice president in the United States. Asma, why is Harris, first of all, going to this major event in Munich and not President Biden? Well, this will be her third time going to the Munich Security Conference. It's something she's done. And it's something that President Biden himself did when he was the vice president. So I don't think it's particularly unusual for her to be here. You know, it is fair to say that she doesn't have maybe as much experience on the diplomatic scene

as many other Washington politicians. You know, she was only a senator for four years in Washington before she became vice president. So a lot of her political experience wasn't necessarily in this as many other Washington politicians. You know, she was only a senator for four years in Washington before she became vice president. So a lot of her political experience wasn't necessarily in this realm. But since she's been VP, she has traveled quite a bit to Africa, Asia, Central America, the Middle East, and here in Europe as well. But I do think that there is more attention on Harris this time, this third trip to Munich than there has

been during the previous two trips. And the reason for that is, you know, the elephant in the room domestically, and that is the increased attention on President Biden's age. You know, I was speaking with an expert on vice presidencies, and he told me that, you know, it's natural that there's going to be this increased attention on who she is, on potentially who the former President Donald Trump's VP pick is, because you don't have young candidates. You have two men who ostensibly will be amongst the oldest presidents in American history. And what about her domestic role, Asma? I mean, thus far, we've seen her on the campaign trail talking to younger voters, voters of color, and addressing issues like reproductive rights. Is foreign policy and diplomatic experience. Biden led the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. And so usually presidents, I would say, look to their vice presidents to bring something distinct that they don't have. And for Harris, you know, very bluntly,

Joe Biden said that he wanted to pick a woman as his vice presidential pick. And so there was a lot of focus initially on her identity. I will say where she has found, I think, a very clear niche domestically has been on issues of abortion and reproductive rights. And that is a place and a space where you have seen her very actively campaigning in the U.S. and where you will likely continue to see her campaigning. And at the same time, you know, this administration sees her to be an asset talking to key voting groups of the Democratic base that Joe Biden himself has struggled with, which are younger voters and voters of color. It's not clear to me that the vice president is at this point in time able to galvanize and

energize those key blocks that do seem to be, I think, broadly disenchanted with some of Joe Biden's past few years in the White House, but it is certainly being put to her to try to talk to them. Kamala Harris has proven that she can speak very compellingly on reproductive rights. It is an issue that she speaks about with a lot of feeling, a lot of what seems to me as sincerity. And it's a topic that Joe Biden, as we've talked about on this podcast before, does not always seem and has not always been enthusiastic about talking about reproductive rights and abortion specifically. As to the identity part of this, about how Joe Biden said, yes, I would like to pick up a woman

as my vice president. On the one hand, yes, that can allow her to speak to certain groups. But on the other hand, you would hope that wouldn't have circumscribed her role in any way. And you can perhaps read, let's give her a broader portfolio like doing foreign policy as allowing her to reach beyond the quote unquote women's issue of reproductive rights. We've mentioned concerns around Biden's age, similar concerns around Trump's age. Republicans have attacked Harris as a way of highlighting those concerns around Biden. And that role on the campaign trail has also opened up an avenue of attack. Here's what Nikki Haley has been saying on the campaign trail about this. You know what should send a chill up every person's spine? The thought of a President Kamala Harris. Danielle, she's said things like this a few times. Right. Yeah. What do you make of it?

Yeah. I mean, there are a couple parts to this. One is the pretty common thing of setting up a politician, specifically a woman politician, as a sort of boogeyman or, I guess, boogie woman. The way that Republicans for years made Nancy Pelosi the center of their political attack ads, even when she had little to do with what was going on in the district proper, right? And so there is that kind of history. But also, you can see Republicans also thinking that if you have a president on the opposite ticket who is quite old, now you have another target to aim at. You don't just have President Biden's weaknesses to throw barbs at. You have Kamala Harris's weaknesses to throw barbs at. So you can bet

that coming up in this election, Republicans are going to take any opportunity to take more swings at her than they would at, say, the running mate of someone who is a bit younger. She's a natural target because of Biden's age, and she's an easier one because of her status as a woman of color. How is that identity shaping her status and her perception in office? Asma? You know, one of the things I've heard from former staffers of Harris is that there is no model for her to do this job, that people don't have a sense of what a Kamala Harris vice presidency ought to be like because they have never seen somebody like her in this job.

And, you know, I think to some degree that allows her flexibility and autonomy to do what she wants. But I think in other ways, it doesn't provide a clear pathway for how to do the job. I would say one place in which we have seen her is, you know, we were talking about just a minute ago, is lean really heavily into issues of reproductive rights, abortion rights, maternal health issues. She's also really prioritized trying to sort of diversify who actually has a seat at the table. But I think, you know, to go back to the question of age, these are legitimate questions. And I will say that many Democrats realize these are legitimate questions. And they realize that the flip side of answering the Joe Biden age question is answering the Kamala Harris competency question. And, you know, it's to that point that even just the other week in an interview we saw that Harris gave to the Wall Street Journal, she flatly said that she is able to lead. And I do anticipate seeing her try to lean more directly

into answering that question. Well, that's all for today. I'm Sarah McCammon. I cover the presidential campaign. I'm Danielle Kurtzleben. I also cover the presidential campaign. And I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. Thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.