The NPR Politics Podcast - Colo. Supreme Court Knocks Trump Off Ballot — What's Next?

Episode Date: December 20, 2023

Citing the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, the Colorado Supreme Court ruled "President Trump is disqualified from holding the office of President" due to his role in the riots at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021. But, there's still a chance he'll be allowed on the ballot following appeals, and a potential ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court. We examine the ruling, and what may happen next.This episode: White House correspondents Asma Khalid & Franco Ordoñez, and Colorado Public Radio public affairs reporter Bente Birkeland.This episode was edited by Erica Morrison. It was produced by Jeongyoon Han and Casey Morell. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi.Unlock access to this and other bonus content by supporting The NPR Politics Podcast+. Sign up via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hi, this is Lisa and Kaya from Geelong, Australia. Today is my last day of first grade before the summer holidays. And I'm returning all of the rocks that Kaya has brought home from school in her pockets. This podcast was recorded at 12.43 p.m. Eastern Time on Wednesday, December 20th of 2023. Things may have changed by the time you hear this. But I'll be enjoying my summer vacation. And I'll be enjoying a summer of rock-free laundry. That is pretty darn cute. I can attest, as a mother, I often find the most weird things accrued in my kid's pocket, like sand, rocks. I feel you. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics

Podcast. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. And I'm Frank Ordonez. I feel you. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. And I'm Frank Ordonez. I cover the Trump campaign. And joining us today is Benta Birkeland from Colorado Public Radio. It is great to have you back on the pod. Thanks for having me. And you are here with us because today on the show, we have news from Colorado. The Colorado Supreme Court has ruled Trump is ineligible to stand for election in that state due to the U.S. Constitution's 14th Amendment. That says that anybody who engaged in insurrection against the U.S. government is ineligible to be president. It will no doubt be appealed to the highest court in the land. But this news is still significant and it comes as the former president is seeking to win the presidency again

in 2024. So, Beda, I've got a real broad question to begin the conversation. What does this mean? I think this is historic, monumental, whatever you want to call the decision, because it is the first time this Civil War era clause has been successfully invoked against a presidential candidate to be barred from appearing on the state's ballot. And in reading the decision, it was clear that Colorado Supreme Court justices really understood the high stakes here and what it could mean for this presidential election. They wrote that they were in uncharted territory and that they didn't reach these conclusions lightly. But they said it's their solemn duty to apply the law without being swayed by public reaction to the decisions.

And despite this ruling, though, there are a lot of unknowns. Trump's campaign has vowed to appeal and they feel they will be successful if the U.S. Supreme Court takes up an appeal. And I'll just add, I mean, looking forward, I mean, former President Trump lost Colorado in 2016, lost Colorado in 2020. So electorally, it may not matter. But there are big questions about whether some of these other states that are looking at this issue could follow suit. And this decision, this decision comes after months of litigation, which we have talked about on the pod earlier this year. Can you just remind us how we got here? How

did we get to the point of the Supreme Court of Colorado making a decision here? Well, the lawsuit was initiated by the liberal group Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, and it was on behalf of six Colorado voters, four Republicans, two unaffiliated voters. And the idea here was to have success in one state and then a cascading effect around the nation. But in the lawsuit, they said Trump was ineligible to run for election under the 14th Amendment that essentially disqualifies anyone from office who's engaged in an insurrection or rebellion against the government. And it was put in place after the Civil War to stop Confederates from seeking office again.

And they argued that Trump spearheaded a multifaceted scheme to stay in power by any means necessary, and that it culminated in a violent attack on the Capitol. And a lower court agreed that Trump engaged in an insurrection through his words, through his actions. But that court said he should still be on the ballot because the Denver District Court didn't think this constitutional provision applied to the office of the presidency. So both sides appealed. And then we have Colorado Supreme Court saying, yes, it does apply to the presidency. So it was a split decision, ultimately, four votes in favor of barring the former president from the ballot, three votes against. Walk us through the majority's opinion.

Well, the majority said that Trump's actions leading up to and during the January 6th attack do meet that threshold of engaging in an insurrection and disqualify him from running from president. So some of the key legal questions here, was January 6th in fact an insurrection? And then what does it mean to engage in an insurrection? Trump's campaign has long said that his speech is protected under the First Amendment and that also January 6th wasn't an insurrection. I would note here that all seven members of Colorado's highest court were appointed by Democratic governors, but they did first go through a bipartisan nomination process. So after this decision came out, Franco, we saw a very strong reaction from the Trump campaign. You know, they have said that they intend to appeal this decision right away.

What else are you hearing from the former president, from people close to him? And are there concerns that, you know, he may try to use this to his advantage ultimately, because he's often said the system is rigged against him? He's already fundraising on this. I mean, in many ways, he's kind of dusting off the old indictment playbook. I mean, coming out strong against the ruling. You know, they have his reaction team posting all these messages from members of Congress, from allies who are criticizing this as a partisan attack. The new House Speaker, Mike Johnson, spoke out against this. I mean, even many of the

presidential rivals are speaking out against this. I mean, this is a way to stoke his base, and he's shown that this is something that he can use to kind of gain attention and draw attention. What I thought was most interesting, actually, was that he didn't speak to this so much yesterday during his rally in Iowa. But I, you know, I suspect it's just a matter of time before we hear from his mouth directly a response and some, you know, some strong reaction to this. I've got to follow up on one thing you said there. You said some of Trump's Republican rivals are also coming out and supporting him. So they're not trying to use this moment to their own advantage. No, I mean, again, it's very similar to the indictments. I mean, he's kind of created in a way this somewhat of this litmus test for his rivals to kind of test it. I mean,

last time when people would come out in any way, you know, speaking out against Trump, they would often get booed in debates or at rallies. So they have to be very careful not to do this. Even Chris Christie, who has been one of the most vociferous, one of the most outspoken critics of President Trump, said that these decisions need to be made by voters, not the courts. And, you know, so this can really empower him for the primaries. But I do want to note, you know, very clearly that, you know, the primaries are one thing, the general election is another. And polls do show that while this may empower him for the primaries, or at least they did for the indictments, you know, there's a lot of information out there about Americans, American voters who are

getting a bit tired of Trump's legal woes. And you could see that play out here as well, possibly. All right. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be back in a moment. And we are back. And Benda, earlier we said that this Colorado state Supreme Court decision was a four to three ruling. So what did the justices who dissented argue? What was their case? from the Trump campaign that states don't have the legal authority to implement Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, that it requires legislation from Congress. Another justice was concerned about depriving Trump of due process and noted that he has not been convicted of engaging in an insurrection. And then another justice was concerned about the short timeline to decide a case of this magnitude with such far-reaching implications. So it sounds like these were more technical grounds than necessarily substantive debates

over whether or not Trump fomented an insurrection. Yes, that's right. But I've also got to ask you that, you know, importantly, the Colorado Supreme Court stayed their own ruling for a few weeks. So what happens now? And what are you hearing specifically from Republican voters in the state? If the U.S. Supreme Court agrees to hear the case, and it still is in process when Colorado's ballot hits its certification deadline, and that's on January 5th, the state opinion orders that the 2024 Republican primary ballot should include

Trump's name. And this is ahead of any potential Supreme Court final decision. Republicans I've talked to, some of the voters who back Trump are vehemently opposed to this decision. They feel like it's unconstitutional. They say it won't impact their vote, even if their vote didn't count for Trump, even if he's not on a ballot, they would still write his name in. And they really see it as a Democratic effort to keep him off the ballot because Democrats don't think they can beat him in November. And I'll just add, I mean, this is this is reflects kind of a national feeling from Republicans that this is partisan and that it is part of what Trump has been, you know, talking about for that the system is kind of biased against him and biased against Republicans, and that it works

for Democrats. And you can see that the campaign is kind of using that same messaging on a national scale. Yeah. I mean, to that point about this being so partisan, President Biden was asked just earlier today about the court case, and he said he was not going to comment on it, that he was going to let the court make that decision. But he also said that he certainly does believe that Donald Trump supported an insurrection. Quote, no question about it. None. Zero. All right. Well, Bente Berkland with Colorado Public Radio. It is always a pleasure to have you on. Thank you so much for your reporting. Thanks for having me. And that's a wrap for today's show. We'll be back in your feeds tomorrow with more news.

I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. And I'm Frank Ordonez. I cover the Trump campaign. And thank you all, as always, for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.