The NPR Politics Podcast - Congressional Republicans OK With Shifting Power Dynamics

Episode Date: February 5, 2025

Congress is supposed to hold the power of the purse. So what do Republicans in Congress think about what appears to be President Trump and Elon Musk's "cut first, ask later" approach? This episode: White House correspondent Tamara Keith, political correspondent Susan Davis, and congressional correspondent Deirdre Walsh.The podcast is produced by Bria Suggs & Kelli Wessinger, and edited by Casey Morell. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi.Listen to every episode of the NPR Politics Podcast sponsor-free, unlock access to bonus episodes with more from the NPR Politics team, and support public media when you sign up for The NPR Politics Podcast+ at plus.npr.org/politics.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hi, this is Daniel from Pasadena, California. Today is the first time since evacuating three weeks ago that I get to get back into my high school band room and prepare for the return of students tomorrow morning. This podcast was recorded at 1 07 p.m. Eastern Time on Wednesday, February 5th. Things may have changed by the time you hear it, but I'll be looking forward to reconnecting with my students and hopefully making some music too. Go Bulldogs and here's the show. Go Bulldogs. Yay, Daniel. Happy for you, Daniel. Yeah, they have been through so much out there. So getting back to some normalcy is a very

good thing. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. And I'm Deirdre Walsh. I cover Congress. And today on the pod, President Trump is asserting executive power in new and disruptive ways. Elon Musk's Doge project claims to be slashing spending and even eliminating an agency created by Congress. So Deirdre, Congress is supposed to hold the power of the purse. So what do Republicans in Congress think about what Trump and Musk are up to? I mean, for now, they're pretty much okay with it. I mean, as you said, Congress is

constitutionally directed to hold the power of the purse. These blizzard of executive actions and steps by Musk's Doge project are basically grabbing that power away from Congress. And so far, most House and Senate Republicans don't seem to be pushing back really in any meaningful way. For the most part, they are basically saying it's fine because this is a new president and it's his right to review government programs and see where there's waste. But these are programs that they authorized, that they specifically directed through their spending bills how much money should be spent on which projects.

So what the Trump administration and most projects are doing are essentially making their work moot. Look, I also think it's really important to remember that these first actions against trying to reduce the number of federal workers or targeting USAID and the funding for that, these aren't necessarily pet projects or supported by large numbers of congressional Republicans. I think a lot of congressional Republicans right now kind of support the idea of shuttering some of these programs and also support the idea of reducing the size of the federal workforce and support the idea of getting elements of the federal government more in line with Donald Trump's vision for

both his foreign policy agendas and how government should be run. I think the pressure point that we're all waiting to see and if it comes to pass is as they continue with this strategy, if or when do they start encroaching on the shores of policies, programs, earmarks, other areas of government that eventually are going to start to affect any number of things that lawmakers actually do care about? I do think in this moment, to Sue's point, fighting over $40 billion in foreign aid through USAID is a fight that most Republicans are fine having because their base opposes that aid, by and large.

But I do think going back to the first sort of move that grabbed power away from Congress was this Office of Management and Budgets memo that was issued last week, sort of without any heads up to members of Congress, that did sort of walk up to the line that Sue was talking about. This would have affected projects that they fought for in spending bills for programs in their communities. And in that case there weren't that many people that were willing to speak up. They obviously got a reprieve because the courts pulled that back and OMB rescinded the memo. But we're not far away from another fight down the road where we could see this pop up again.

And that's the spending bill that's coming up next month. Yeah, I mean, I think it it almost seems like and correct me if this is not the right way of thinking about it, but Republican members of Congress are in this position of saying, do I want to assert my power of Congress over a president that is exercising lots of power, or do I want to assert my party loyalty to the president who is their president? Yeah, I mean, I think it's obviously the latter. Donald Trump, I think right's obviously the latter Donald Trump I think right now might be as popular as he'll ever be in his presidency Presidents come in sort of at a high point and then that historically ticks down from there

I think certainly within the sphere of the Republican Party. He's wildly popular I think a lot of Donald Trump's actions right now are seeing our campaign promise made, campaign promise being kept. And I also think, like, look, the power grab in the federal government right now is, I think, in many ways being celebrated by a lot of Americans. This is exactly what a lot of Americans did vote for. They wanted huge disruption in Washington. There was this view that the only way to change the system is to essentially break it. It is radically shaking up the establishment of Washington, D.C., but I don't think at least yet Republicans see political peril here. I think that they see this as a political opportunity to really make a lot of change. And also keep in mind, this is all, as you noted, Tam, executive action. I'm like, look,

the rubber, when the rubber meets the road is when this administration and this Congress actually try to advance legislation and there is still a tremendous amount of possibility of internal party drama when they actually try to do things when it comes to spending in the budget. I do wonder, have any Republicans expressed concerns? Some have. Obviously, the first instance when lawmakers were fielding all kinds of calls from their constituents about the possible cancellation or pause in some community programs in their districts, some were

raising questions and some publicly were like, I think this is a bad idea. One of them, Nebraska Republican Don Bacon, did that a few hours later. He admitted to reporters that his public statements got attention, and he had folks talk to him about his public concerns. And then he said, well, I got some clarification, and now I know there's an appeals process for people who have concerns. So he sort of got back on message with the party. But folks close to Trump have made the point that a lot of members of this Congress weren't around during the first Trump administration. And things are far different the first time he was in office than now.

I mean, the party is Trump's party now in a way that it wasn't in 2017. There aren't many people who ran on the ticket with Trump and have said over and over again, he has a mandate that are willing to get crosswise with him at this moment. I do think that there is mass confusion and maybe unease among some about what Elon Musk is doing because they just don't know what he's doing. All right. We're going to take a quick break and we'll have more when we get back. This is Ira Glass with This American Life. Each week on our show, we choose a theme, tell different stories on that theme. All right, I'm just going to stop right there. You're

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And we're back. And Sue, after weeks of hearings on the Hill, it's looking like possibly all of Trump's cabinet picks are going to be confirmed, even after some Republican senators expressed reservations. Sue Zadok Yeah, I have to say I'm not really surprised by this. After Pete Hegsith was confirmed to be defense secretary, I think to me the writing was pretty clear on the wall that there wasn't going to be a lot of fight among Senate Republicans for Trump's cabinet. I think it's a couple of things. I think to me the writing was pretty clear on the wall that there wasn't going to be a lot of fight among Senate Republicans for Trump's cabinet. I think it's a couple of things. I think very broadly, most senators sort of ascribe to the notion that a president

should have who they want in their cabinet, unless they're a really egregious nominee. I think the best example of that that we saw was former Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz to be attorney general. What was the bridge too far? Matt Gaetz was the bridge too far. Though he never actually made it to being a nominee. That is true, but it was because it was made very clear to him that he would never have the votes to be confirmed. Look, a lot of these people, they're provocative.

They're outside the box. They are not someone a traditional Republican president would nominate, but I think that that all fits to the narrative and the type of cabinet that Trump wants to put together. And to the point we were making earlier, I think a lot of these senators, and I'll give you a couple of examples, but I think a lot of these senators have bigger battles to fight with the Trump administration. So hold your fire on a nomination and save that for the actual policymaking that's going to try to happen this year. I think Susan Collins, the Republican senator from Maine, she came out this week in support of Tulsi Gabbard for a director of national intelligence. She

was a big swing vote on that. Look, Susan Collins is the chairwoman of the Appropriations Committee. She is going to be at the table for all of the spending fights that are going to play out this year. I think she's going to focus her energy on what she can control. I think another one, Bill Cassidy, the Republican senator from Louisiana. He's also a medical doctor. There was a question of whether he would support Robert F. Kennedy Jr. for Health and Human Services secretary. And he said he would because he felt he had gotten some concessions like regular phone calls and meetings. But he also is someone that's going to want to sit at the table if Republicans try to do anything to healthcare programs like Medicaid. That could also be a big fight. And he's also up for reelection in 2026. So I think a combination of like

personal political heat, how much heat do you want to take from the base for derailing a Trump cabinet nominee? And what are the bigger fights here? And what can you control? And Congress has much more control over policy outcomes of legislation than anything that the president is doing on his own. And it's also been decades since a president lost a vote on a nominee. And that's what a lot of Republicans, even the ones who had concerns and talk publicly about their concerns about some of these nominees, have said. Like, look, he won and he deserves the right to get his people in place. Yeah, I do wonder, and just to take a step back here, has the balance of power just heavily tilted toward the executive branch?

Yeah. For sure. And it's been that way for years. It's not just that this is happening because of Donald Trump. I mean, it's been certainly accelerated in the last couple of weeks when you see sort of like the rubber hitting the road in terms of the executive swiftly taking action in terms of

programs and spending. But Republicans even admit that Congress has been giving up its own power to the executive branch for decades. Yeah. I also think, you know, power doesn't exist in a vacuum. And if the executive branch is exerting all this power and the legislative branch is taking the backseat, like by design, the executive branch is going to be more powerful. I just think that this is a moment in time. And I think the potential for conflict with Donald Trump and Capitol

Hill and with Congress is still pretty profound. And we're going to run into it really soon. In about six weeks, there's going to be a funding deadline to keep the government open or shut it down. Right now, there is no clear path for how Republicans get out of this without the potential of a shutdown or how they resolve all 12 spending bills and increase the debt limit, which is the nation's borrowing limit. I mean, they have a lot of big problems on the immediate horizon, so the honeymoon could be over pretty soon. nation's borrowing limit. I mean, they have a lot of big problems on the immediate horizon. So the honeymoon could be over pretty soon. I think there's two areas where you can see fractures in the Republican Party on Capitol

Hill. As Sue talked about the spending debate, March 14th is the day that the federal agencies are going to run out of government. There's no real progress, as Sue talked about, towards a resolution to avoiding a shutdown. And I don't see a lot of incentive for Democrats right now to help to provide the votes, which they've had to do over and over again to avoid a shutdown, to get Republicans out of this mess now that they control both chambers of Congress and there's all this activity that they're really upset about going on across the government. The other issue where we're seeing a divide today is Republicans reacting to President Trump's declaration that he's going to take over Gaza and run it and develop it and not

rule out sending American troops to stabilize it. That goes completely counter to the America First campaign slogan that he ran on and that his base embraced. And there's still a growing sentiment clearly in the party in Congress that this is not what they promised the voters. You can't cheer on the demise of foreign aid and USAID, and then turn around and embrace sending more money overseas. And to your other point, Tam, really about what can Democrats do here, please do not forget that Speaker Mike Johnson has not been able to pass appropriations bills with Republican-only votes. They need Democrats in the House to get bills passed. They still need Democratic votes in the Senate because the filibuster still exists.

There is no path forward on a big budget spending deal that doesn't have Democratic buy-in. And you could argue Donald Trump is taking a very antagonistic posture towards the Democratic Party that might come back to bite him, especially if Democrats sit down at the negotiating table and say like, hey, we'll cut a deal. You have to refund USAID, right? Like, they're not without some leverage when it comes to those purse strings. And it is certainly looking like the way the White House is conducting itself that those negotiations are going to be incredibly contentious. Well, and just in terms of the way the White House is conducting itself, it is sending

very strong signals that it doesn't actually care what Congress says it should spend money on. Well, and remember what happened the last time we got to a near government shutdown before the last Congress wrapped up is Elon Musk started tweeting that he hated the deal that the Speaker of the House cut. So we don't know yet what Elon Musk wants in a March spending deal that may have to deal with wildfire money and may have to deal with the debt limit. So that is a wild card that we still haven't figured out yet. I also am remembering a time back in the first Trump presidency where Republicans in Congress

came up with a spending plan and it was ready to go and Trump decided not to sign it. I think the added extra sprinkle on top this time around is it's not just the president they're looking over their shoulder with now, it's also Elon Musk, right? If either one of those two people takes a public position against a bill, even after it's been negotiated and ready to go, it can all collapse. So things can fall apart at any moment. And I think that just adds to the sort of feeling of unpredictability and chaos in Washington right now.

All right, we're going to leave it there for today. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. And I'm Deirdre Walsh. I cover Congress. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.