The NPR Politics Podcast - Debate: Trump Refuses To Condemn White Supremacy, Biden Pitches Directly To Camera

Episode Date: September 30, 2020

The first debate was chaotic and light on policy as the participants disregarded the agreed-upon rules. President Trump repeatedly interrupted the discussion in order to lambast Joe Biden and debate moderator Chris Wallace. The president once again refused to condemn white supremacy and did not agree to respect the results of the election. This episode: congressional correspondent Susan Davis, campaign correspondent Asma Khalid, and White House correspondent Tamara Keith.Connect:Subscribe to the NPR Politics Podcast here.Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Listen to our playlist The NPR Politics Daily Workout.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Susan Davis. I cover Congress. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. And I'm Asma Khalid. I'm covering the presidential campaign. And it is 11.31 p.m. Eastern on Tuesday, September 29th. And the first presidential debate between President Trump and former Vice President Joe Biden has just concluded. I was watching it in my basement as usual these days, but Tam and Asma, you're both in Ohio. That's right. We're in Cleveland. We are in the media filing center. So we weren't actually physically in the debate hall, but we are here at the scene of where this first presidential debate was taking place. And I will say it was a feisty night. It was fire. People out there

need help. But why didn't you do it over the last 25 years? Because you weren't president screwing things up. You were a senator. You're the worst president America has ever had. The mayor of Moscow's wife gave your son three and a half million dollars what did he do to deserve it what did he do with barista to deserve 180 listen who is on your list joe this is all right gentlemen i think this is yeah i mean this this was not uh a normal debate there you know there were rules that were laid out at the beginning. And occasionally the moderator would try to remind the candidates of the rules. It was like an interruptus fest.

I mean, I would say that for me, like my takeaway as I sit here thinking about it is just how rude it all was. I mean, it was a constant interruption, more often than not driven by President Trump, although Biden certainly got some interruptions in there. They seemed to sort of totally ignore the rules that they had previously agreed to in this debate. It was really personal. It was really nasty. And it was, again, you know, we talk so much about the norms and decorum and traditions,

but this really kind of just blew up any kind of semblance of what I think people have been used to in these presidential debates that have traditionally been a little bit more state affairs. And I know that Trump was an aggressive debater in 2016, too, but he just seemed to turn it up to 11 tonight. And it seemed, Tam, to me that maybe that was part of the strategy here to just come out swinging and never stop. Well, I talked to the deputy campaign manager for the Trump campaign. They came by our very quiet media center. And it was like, you know, was this a missed opportunity here? Like,

could the, should the president have shown more sympathy about coronavirus? Should, you know, there was just like so much interrupting. And they were like, yeah, what he did was he dominated the debate. He, you know, all that interrupting they see as dominance. And they said that in their eyes, former Vice President Joe Biden looked weak. Arguably, former Vice President Joe Biden was trying to look presidential, but President Trump came out and did exactly, it seems, what he wanted to do. To me, that was perhaps, you know, a missed opportunity, you could say,

from Joe Biden's campaign. Because, you know, Tam, you say that a lot of this was done in the style of what President Trump wanted. There were moments where it looked like Joe Biden seemed flustered because of the constant interruptions. And, you know, one thing I think that we all were wondering leading into this debate was this race has looked remarkably steady in the polls for, frankly, months at this point. And I think that, you know, folks thought, well, maybe this is one of the few opportunities to see if either candidate could really fundamentally change the race to some degree. And look, I don't think that there are loads of undecided voters who are really tuning in and maybe, you know, saw how President Trump responded and saw how Joe Biden responded, who might have thought one way or the other and been more, you know, tuned into how how Donald Trump responded.

But what I do think is potentially possible is there are soft Biden supporters. Right. And it seemed like Donald Trump's strategy was to just heckle and heckle and interrupt to make it such that it was really hard at times for Joe Biden to actually relay that message that he was trying to convey to some of those independent or maybe soft supporters of his. And I think part of what he was trying to do here is sort of say, hey, do you guys really want four more years of that? Tim, what stood out to you tonight? You know, I think that the COVID section was the most resonant section of the debate, in part because, you know, maybe because we're sitting here in masks watching it. But, you know, this is this is the reality that Americans are living.

This is why, even though there were some similarities in performance to the 2016 debates, it all hits a little bit differently because we're in the middle of a pandemic. And Joe Biden clearly came in prepared to talk about coronavirus, to blame President Trump's handling of coronavirus for the very high death toll in the United States. 200,000 dead. As you said, over 7 million infected in the United States. We, in fact, have 5 percent, 4 percent of the world's population, 20 percent of the deaths. 40,000 people a day are contracting COVID. In addition to that, about between 750 and 1,000 people a day are dying. When he was presented with that number, he said it is what it is. Well, it is what it is because you are who you are. That's why it is. The president has no plan.

And I know this stood out to Asma too, but there were a number of moments where Biden did this sort of direct to camera appeal to voters at home. And inevitably, it would be interrupted by President Trump at the end. You folks at home, how many of you got up this morning and had an empty chair at the kitchen table because someone died of COVID? How many of you were in a situation where you lost your mom or dad and you couldn't even speak to them? You had a nurse holding a phone up so you could in fact say goodbye.

You would have lost far more people. Far more people. You would have lost far more people, far more people. And by the way, you know, I think that there were questions about how some of these policy issues really resonated with voters because it felt like much of the debate was actually just about people fighting and disagreeing with them. But to your point, Tam, COVID was an issue where it seemed like, you know, it's been a campaign issue that the Biden folks have tried to emphasize for months at this point. He came prepared and there were many moments where it felt like he was trying to basically tune out Donald Trump, tune out the interruptions and just look directly at the camera to try to relay his message to the American public. You know, how effective that will be, I honestly don't know

until we maybe get some additional polling or some sense from focus groups as to how this all plays out. But there was clearly an attempt to basically ignore his opponent and make his message directly to voters who are watching. All right, let's take a quick break. And when we get back, we'll talk more about the debate when we get back. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Google. Google's free tools are designed to help millions of businesses around the country adapt to a new way of working. From updating their business hours,

to switching to curbside pickup, to activating online booking, small businesses are staying connected to their customers with Google. They can even add gift card and donation links on Google so they can get support from their community. Explore Google's free tools for small businesses at google.com slash grow. With the passing of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the president is hoping to fill the seat with a conservative judge. And evangelicals who play an important part in American politics have been waiting for this moment.

But how did evangelicals become such a powerful force? Listen now to the history of evangelicals on the ThruLine podcast from NPR. And we're back. And there were a lot of major moments in the debate tonight. But there's a couple that I think are worth focusing on because I think they're going to be talked about a lot after this debate. And the first was in a portion of the debate that was about race. And the president was asked pretty directly by moderator Chris Wallace to disavow white supremacy. Are you prepared to specifically do it? I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing, not from the right wing. So what are you saying? I'm willing to do anything. I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing, not from the right wing. So what are you saying?

I'm willing to do anything. I want to see peace. Then do it, sir. Say it. Do it. Say it. Do you want to call him? What do you want to call him?

Give me a name. Give me a name. White supremacist and right wing. Who would you like me to condemn? White supremacist and right wing. Proud boys, stand back and stand by. But I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what.

Somebody's got to do something about Antifa and the left, because this is not a right wing problem. Tam, I would note that the president never directly did actually disavow white supremacy in that answer. No, he said he would, and then he didn't. And, you know, the Proud Boys are a far right group associated with white supremacy. You know, I think that there were a number of opportunities presented to President Trump during this debate by moderator Chris Wallace to answer a question very directly. Would he disavow white supremacy and militia groups? Would he accept the result of the election? And if there was a delay in the result, tell his supporters to keep it cool and not have any sort of unrest or uprising.

Even climate change, he was asked a couple of times whether he believes in man-made climate change. And when he finally did answer, he said, well, maybe sort of. And then he started talking about forest management again. There were just a number of these instances of President Trump not answering directly on things that we're going to be talking about for a while. But Asma, the race issue, especially for Joe Biden, goes to sort of the fundamental reason why he decided to run for president, or at least that's what he says is the reason that he decided to run for president, was watching Trump's response to the racist violence in Charlottesville. That's right. And, you know, look, President Trump has been, I would say, less than clear

in terms of actually disavowing white supremacy or the Confederate flag when he's had opportunities posed to him to do this. What's notable to me was that, you know, the question was asked so explicitly by Chris Wallace on the debate stage when there are so many people watching, and yet we still didn't hear a clear answer from President Trump. On the issue, though, I will say of election integrity, too, to Tam's point, that was some, you know, that entire exchange to me was fascinating because people are already voting. Like, this is not a normal election year where we're going to have an election day. This is election season. And so lots of people are already voting by mail-in voting. You know, the president has raised questions suggesting that mail-in voting somehow generates additional voter fraud that, you know, is not backed up by evidence.

But yet he still sort of went down this path of suggesting ballots in rivers, etc. I mean, just it didn't really compute with any evidence that we have around voter fraud and around mail-in ballots. This is going to be a fraud like you've never seen. The other thing, it's nice on November 3rd, you're watching and you see who won the election. And I think we're going to do well because people are really happy with the job we've done. But you know what? We won't know. We might not know for months because these ballots are going to be all over. And you juxtapose that with a contrast of hearing Joe Biden, who was pretty clearly saying, you know, go out there and vote. And regardless of

whether or not I win or Donald Trump wins, like we, he said, collectively are going to accept these election results. The fact is, I will accept it. And he will, too. You know why? Because once the winner is declared after all the ballots are counted, all the votes are counted, that'll be the end of it. That'll be the end of it. And if it's me, in fact, fine. If it's not me, I'll support the outcome. To me, it was this moment where he was trying to present himself as being sort of above the fray and be presidential and say that regardless of what this outcome is, we both will accept the results. The president's answer on election integrity had so much misinformation in it.

It is hard to even know where to begin. There's fraud. They found him in creeks. They found some with the name Trump, just happened to have the name Trump just the other day in a waste paper basket. Yes, the whole back and forth about the election to me might be the most, not only important, but certainly newsworthy exchanges of the evening where you did have a sitting president repeatedly, and in some ways, urgently insist that he did not have faith in the security or the outcome of the election. And I know he said that before, but I think it's worth stating again and again, how significant that is, and the message it is sending to voters

in real time as they cast their ballots in the election. And the reason why I think this platform was even more significant of a place to deliver this message is, remember, this is really a time when more Americans than ever are tuning into this election. And that was sort of the closing moment of this debate was the president suggesting that the outcome of the election could be in doubt. And from my own corner of the closing moment of this debate was the president suggesting that the outcome of the election could be in doubt. And from my own corner of the universe, I thought the question was really interesting about how we also have a Supreme Court nomination going on right now. And he was asked about Amy Coney Barrett being on the court and whether he would like the election to end up in

the Supreme Court. And he suggested that yes, would, and that they may have to evaluate ballots. That was such a brazen admission to hear out loud, right? Yes, and maybe could potentially complicate the smoothness of this confirmation fight on Capitol Hill, which is certainly not in his own self-interest either. Yeah, one other thing just worth talking about is that there were a number of occasions where either the moderator or President Trump tried to pin Vice President Biden down on on court packing.

Biden never really answered. But on the Green New Deal or on defund the police, Biden was very clear about his position. He basically, President Trump kept coming back to this, sort of trying to say like, if you admit that you don't support the Green New Deal, then you're going to lose all the Bernie supporters or tell that to the socialists. And Biden kept saying like, well, yeah, I don't want to defund the police and the Green New Deal is not my plan.

And also like Democrats know I'm the moderate one. yeah, I don't want to defund the police and the Green New Deal is not my plan. And also, like, Democrats know I'm the moderate one. Sue, I had a question for you because I think Tam and I both cover these respective candidates kind of day in and day out. But for you, you know, there were so many expectations set, I think, both around what Trump needed to accomplish tonight and what Joe Biden needed to accomplish tonight. Do you feel like at the end of the night, we have a sense that one of these two men did a better job accomplishing whatever it is they needed to do? I don't know. With a debate like this, it's so tough because I think, who's the debate for, right? That's the question we're trying to answer. Who were these candidates at least trying to reach? And it seems like Trump's strategy was base, base, base, keep people enthused behind him. I didn't hear a lot from the president that sounded like he was

reaching out to sort of undecided voters, swing voters, women voters. And Biden seemed to be doing that. Like he's, Biden's trying to be the reassuring voter, the skeptical, the Biden skeptic that he's going to be a safe and comfortable vote to land on. Whether that was effective, I don't really know because frankly, a lot of this debate was just unwatchable television. If you don't tune in a lot to politics because you don't like partisanship and you don't like yelling and you tuned in tonight because you wanted to find out more about these candidates, I don't think that you walked away with a lot. And I'm not sure if the public at large was well served by a debate quite like this.

Well, and how many people turned off the TV after some period of time? Because it was like... That's what I would really like to know. Just miserable. All right. Well, we're going to leave it there for tonight. But you can find more of our coverage and our fact checks from the night at NPR.org. And there will be links in the episode

description. I'm Susan Davis. I cover Congress. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. And I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the presidential campaign. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.