The NPR Politics Podcast - Democratic Debate Confronts A Loaded Question: 'Can A Woman Win Against Trump?'

Episode Date: January 15, 2020

Six Democratic presidential candidates debated on Tuesday night in Iowa, less than three weeks before the state's first-in-the-nation caucuses.It came up early: can a woman win? The candidates agreed that the answer is yes after Bernie Sanders denied Elizabeth Warren's accusation that he told her a woman couldn't win.And as the candidates debated trade, Sanders stood out as the only opponent of USMCA, the replacement for NAFTA.This episode: White House correspondent Tamara Keith, political correspondents Scott Detrow and Asma Khalid, and political reporter Danielle Kurtzleben.Connect:Subscribe to the NPR Politics Podcast here.Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Asma Khalid. I'm covering the presidential campaign. I'm Danielle Kurtzleben. I also cover the presidential campaign. And I'm Scott Detrow. That is what I do as well. All right. The time now is 12.11 a.m. on Wednesday, the 15th of January. And the CNN Des Moines Register debate just wrapped up. Scott and I are here in D.C. Asma and Danielle, you are in Des Moines. Are you in some sort of gymnasium somewhere? We are. And it is rather chilly, even though it's certainly warmer than it is outside right now in

Iowa. I have my gloves in my lap right now because my hands have been freezing all night. Also, by the way, it is the past here. It is January 14th here right now. Just timestamp fact check. Central times. Yeah, I know. All right. So as is a tradition on this podcast, we are going to go through the names of the candidates who were on the stage

and how much speaking time they got. But we are mixing it up tonight. Danielle, I am taking this away from you and giving it to Scott. That's because we're Wednesday people here. You Tuesday people, do your own thing. We're going to talk about the times of the candidates here. So this actually takes less time now that there are fewer candidates. Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren spoke the most at a flat 19 minutes. Then there's a clump of four candidates who all spoke roughly the same amount of time. You've got Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders at 17 and a half minutes. Then there's a clump of four candidates who all spoke roughly the same amount of time. You've got Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders at 17 and a half minutes. Minnesota Senator Amy Klobuchar, former South Bend, Indiana Mayor Pete Buttigieg at 16 minutes,

32 seconds. Former Vice President Joe Biden at a little more than 16 minutes. Billionaire Tom Steyer wearing the plaid tie he wears all the time, clocking in at 12 and a half minutes. I'm sorry. I was just thinking about the tie. I'm sorry. I was too, actually. Well, if you'd like to know all about it, I did ask Tom Steyer's campaign what the deal is with his tie. I mean, it's a rather trademark tie.

So are you curious? Did you write just, dearest campaign, what's the deal with this tie? It was a slightly more finessed email. But I was told that Tom has been wearing a plaid tie for many, many years because he's always seen tartan as a symbol of the fight. Am I pronouncing that correctly? Is it tartan? It's a tartan. Yeah.

Tartan. As a person with a Scottish last name, I too have a tartan. I don't wear a tie. Really? last name. I, too, have a tartan. I don't wear a tie. So yesterday on our podcast, we talked about some drama that had unfolded over the weekend between Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. Now, there's a reason we have a timestamp on our podcast, because more unfolded after that. And then it kind of spilled out on stage tonight. Asma, can you get us to what happened on stage tonight? So in December of 2018,

Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders and Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren had a private meeting in which they discussed the presidency. And in a nutshell, it's kind of he said, she said. Elizabeth Warren has said that Bernie Sanders told her that he did not think that a woman could win the presidency. Bernie Sanders has said that that was ludicrous, that that did not think that a woman could win the presidency. Bernie Sanders has said that that was ludicrous, that that did not happen. And so, I mean, it's a private meeting, and that's sort of where we were leading up to this debate. Yeah, there was a CNN article that sort of put this out into the bloodstream. And I think the thing that's worth highlighting is that Sanders denied it, and then hours later, Warren came out with a statement saying that, in fact, he did say that. And that obviously came up tonight. CNN reported yesterday that and Senator Sanders,

Senator Warren confirmed in a statement that in 2018, you told her that you did not believe that a woman could win the election. Why did you say that? Well, as a matter of fact, I didn't say it. And I don't want to waste a whole lot of time on this because this is what Donald Trump and maybe some of the media want. Anybody knows me knows that it's incomprehensible that I would think that a woman could not be president of the United States. And then Warren was asked about it. The question to Warren kind of put put a finger on the scales a little bit about what allegedly happened in this meeting. Senator Warren, what did you think when Senator Sanders told you a woman could not win the election? I disagreed. Bernie is my friend, and I am not here to try to fight with Bernie. But look, this question about whether or not a woman can be president has been raised,

and it's time for us to attack it head on. And I think the best way to talk about who can win is by looking at people's winning record. So can a woman beat Donald Trump? Look at the men on this stage. Collectively, they have lost 10 elections. The only people on this stage who have won every single election that they've been in are the women, Amy and me. Senator Klobuchar jumping in to say, so true. So, you know, electability has been a significant undercurrent in this campaign this whole time.

How did you read this moment in the debate? I mean, look, this is a thing that we have been hearing about from voters throughout this campaign. Asma and I were just talking about this today. I think we've talked about this multiple times today, where we've talked about how voters have voiced to us throughout this campaign worries that a woman may not be able to win the presidency, especially after having seen Donald Trump win the presidency himself. Now, I am not taking any position here on what Bernie Sanders did or did not say. But there is also the question of whether a woman can win the presidency and whether a woman can win the presidency versus Donald Trump. Because also a very real thing that voters will raise to you is that Donald Trump, you know, made fun of women's looks and or talked about women being good looking, you know, objectified.

Along with he has many allegations of sexual assault against him, which he denies, we should say. But the fact that America elected him, even given all of that, really scared a lot of Democratic voters, especially many who consider themselves feminists. And what Elizabeth Warren tried to do there was essentially flip this notion of electability on its head and say, well, you know, all you voters who've been questioning the notion of whether or not a woman is electable, look, at least on this stage, it's the women who have a greater track record of winning elections. And one thing I think is always worth flagging with Warren is that she has been dealing with this voter concern her entire political career, something she talks a lot

about. And I think she often does it because it's a not so subtle comparison to the question in 2016 is that, remember, when she ran for Senate for the first time against Scott Brown, he had beaten a woman, Martha Coakley, who everybody thought would run away with that race. She lost. There were all these questions. And the way that Warren retells it, it's almost like she's projecting this onto 2016. There were questions. Can a woman win? So I went out there and I won. So this all led to probably maybe the funniest moment of the debate when Bernie Sanders started trying to check something that Elizabeth Warren had said. Yeah, Warren had ended that answer about electability saying, and I'm the only one on this stage who within the last 30 years has beat an incumbent Republican. And then a couple of minutes went by and then Bernie Sanders says,

wait a second, I baited a Republican in 1990. I defeated an incumbent Republican running for Congress. When? 1990. And then Warren kind of is like doing the math, making a visual of it. Carry the four. That's how I won. Beat a Republican congressman. Number two. Of course, I don't think there's any debate up here. Wasn't it 30 years ago? I beat an incumbent Republican congressman. And I said,

I was the only one who's beaten an incumbent Republican in 30 years. Well, 30 years ago, it's 1990, as a matter of fact. So was that him being confused on the way she framed it or not quite hearing it? Or was that a well, actually, of like, well, actually, November 1990 would have been less than 30 years. We don't know what he was thinking or not thinking. Right. But I think the point he was trying to make is that he, too, has beaten a Republican incumbent. Right. And what we saw from Elizabeth Warren there was that her team did some very intentional framing of those numbers. So drama aside, let's get to policy, because they did talk about a lot of policy in this debate and not just electability. And going into it, we were pretty sure that they were going to talk about foreign policy,

especially in light of President Trump's recent escalation and then de-escalation with Iran. How did you guys see the contrast between the candidates come out? I mean, there was a relitigation of the Iraq war vote between Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden. This is certainly something we've heard before publicly. It's something we've heard in previous debates. You know, it's sort of remarkable to me, to be blunt, just given that the Iraq war is a war that's been going on for essentially my entire life. So it's just entire adult life, I should say. So just the fact that it's being relitigated in a Democratic debate even now, it's just sort of, I mean, it's noteworthy to me.

This is the fourth contested Democratic presidential primary where a raw four votes are an issue. Every candidate found a way to take these foreign policy, these foreign conflicts, and to try to put their fingerprint on them, to try to differentiate themselves using them. For example, you, of course, had Biden and Sanders with their disputes. But then Biden, by the way, made a point of bringing up Barack Obama. The man who also argued against that war, Barack Obama, picked me to be his vice president. And once we were elected president and vice president, he turned to me and asked me to end that war. Bernie Sanders, of course, made a point of

talking about opposing the Vietnam War and the Iraq War. Both of those wars were based on lies. And right now, what I fear very much is we have a president who is lying again and could drag us into a war that is even worse than the war in Iraq. Et cetera, et cetera. Everybody had a way of saying, yes, and I'm unique from everyone else. I mean, the other thing that was interesting to me was the sort of unanimous agreement amongst the Democratic candidates that something needs to be done to change the authorization for use of military force. And, you know, to me, this is noteworthy because President Obama also sort of, you know, had a lot of liberty in terms of deciding where to strike targets, whether it was in Pakistan or Yemen. All right, we're going to take a quick break.

And when we get back, trade and free college. Check out our daily crash course in economics, The Indicator. In less than 10 minutes, we tackle important topics like unemployment, the housing crisis, and how Justin Bieber saved the Icelandic economy. NPR's The Indicator from Planet Money. Listen now. And we're back. And let's turn to another policy discussion that came up that, Danielle, I know you had to have been happy about. Trade. Woo! Specifically, the U.S.-Mexico-Canada Agreement, or USMCA, which the Senate is set to vote on very soon.

The House has already approved it. And the senators on that stage will be voting on that measure. Two of them plan to vote in favor. One of them, Senator Sanders, plans to vote against it. Right. Yes. So like you said, Senator Amy Klobuchar, Senator Elizabeth Warren, they both are planning on voting in favor of this, also called NAFTA 2.0, is what some of our listeners might have heard the USMCA referred to as. Bernie Sanders is one of the loudest opponents of it. And tonight on stage, he really, as he has in past debates, tonight on stage, he really made it clear that his opposition is in large part due to climate change or lack thereof in this trade agreement. And this is one thing that is really, I always think is really important to

keep in mind about trade agreements. Yes, they are about trade, but they are often or can be about so much more. For example, often when a trade agreement is in the works, you will have activist groups, for example, saying, you know, you could use this to leverage better labor standards. You could use this to leverage better climate provisions in it. And so that is definitely a thing that Bernie Sanders is doing here. And this was one of many moments where Senator Amy Klobuchar in this debate sort of jumped in for the more moderate position, defended the more moderate stance. So what we should do, and I support the USMCA, I am glad that these improvements

were made that are supported by people like Richard Trumka and Sherrod Brown on labor and environment and on pharma, the sweetheart deal, because I think we need a big trading block with North America to take on China. Trade is a very big deal here in Iowa. She brought up China because the USMCA is not the only trade game in town right now. There is this phase one deal with China, sort of a start at dialing back that trade war, I guess you could call it, that is about to be signed. And that is something that Iowa farmers definitely care about. And you can bet that Amy Klobuchar had that in mind because soybean farmers here in Iowa were in particular were hurt by that trade war. One thing that we have talked about on every single debate post debate podcast, I think thus far is health care. And this debate, they talked about

health care, but we are not going to talk about it on this podcast. Instead, we are going to take this time to talk about the differences between the candidates on free college or canceling college debt, because there are candidates with big plans on that and there are candidates with different plans on that. Yeah. And it's kind of the same candidate by candidate divide that you see with the health care conversation. Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are in favor of essentially free college education, canceling student debt. And you have more incremental approaches to making college more affordable and in dealing with student debt from Biden and Buttigieg. And this came up

because Pete Buttigieg has been running these ads and talking a lot on the campaign trail about this idea of, I don't think that taxpayers should pay for the college education of a millionaire's kid, is the way that he frames it. As Danielle reported on when this started, that's gotten a lot of pushback from the progressive community saying he's just parroting a Republican talking point about their higher education plans. But that got into a conversation about whether it is appropriate to have it across the board. But it was put to him with a good question, I thought, of, well, wait a second.

There's a lot of public goods that the government provides and pays for that nobody says, wait a second, you make too much money. You need to contribute, you know, some to come in, like libraries and parks, for example. We expect and hope for everyone to get through 12th grade. It's not the same for college. Now, again, I don't want cost ever to be a barrier to somebody seeking to attend college. And under my plan, it won't be. Matter of fact, for the first 80 percent of Americans by income, it is free at public colleges. But if you're in that top income bracket, don't get me wrong.

I still wish you well I hope you succeed when you go to college I just need you to go ahead and pay that tuition because we could be using those dollars for something else and Minnesota Senator Amy Klobuchar jumped into this conversation and made the argument that really the focus should not just be on college it should be looking at where the jobs are and where people need to be. And, you know, she said essentially that there's a whole bunch of fields for which there's likely to be a job shortage. And those aren't necessarily jobs that require a college degree. Right. And her plan, like Biden's, they're not exactly the same, but her plan would provide for free community college, which would train people for some of those jobs that she mentioned. But coming back to Buttigieg and Sanders and Warren, one thing that I'm continually struck

by with that debate is that it's a debate between free college for all and free college for most, which is essentially what Pete Buttigieg's plan is. I mean, I don't want to downplay this too much, but it is to some degree about upper middle class kids and how much assistance they should get. This wouldn't affect lower and middle income people any differently between those two plans. And it kind of seems to me that that gets to another tension point that we heard tonight and other nights where Pete Buttigieg and Joe Biden, when they're framed as moderates, they talk a lot in the moderate way about, you know, we need to appeal to everybody. We need to come together. But they really bristle at the idea that their policies are moderate. You know, Buttigieg, you heard tonight, you've heard 100 times him saying my health care plan

would be more progressive than any ever passed. But Amy Klobuchar, on the other hand, seems to really embrace that position and be very comfortable being called a moderate and talks about her moderate plans in a way that Buttigieg or Biden maybe doesn't want you to hear. Yeah, like if you had the deficit on your bingo card, which no one did, she got that one. She mentioned the deficit. I would like to end this podcast essentially where we started this podcast, which is with the idea of electability, because these candidates were on stage in many cases making arguments about how they would take on President Trump. And Vice President Joe Biden, you know, with the Senate impeachment trial looming, was asked about, you know, how impeachment is going to affect his candidacy and how the attacks on him from President Trump are going to affect the candidacy and how the attacks on him from President Trump are going

to affect the way he makes his case? You know, I understand how these guys are, this Republican Party. They've gone after, savaged my surviving son, gone after me, told lies that your networks and others won't even carry on television because they're flat-out lies. And I did my job. The question is whether or not he did his job and he hasn't done his job. And so it doesn't it doesn't really matter whether or not he's gone after me. I've got to be in a position that I think of the American people. I can't hold a grudge. I have to be able to not only fight, but also heal. It's an argument he's been making to sort of elevate himself from the conversation and present himself as the general election candidate.

I mean, but I will point out that here in Iowa, where we are, it is still a very contested race. I mean, I think nationally there is no doubt Joe Biden is seen as the frontrunner. That is not necessarily the case here in Iowa. It's a pretty crowded field between Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, Pete Buttigieg and Joe Biden. And any given day, any given poll, sometimes you see movement as to who's actually in first place there. And Tom Steyer, who was on the debate stage, was not one of the top candidates in the polls or in speaking time. He made his argument about how he would take on President Trump. But whoever is going to beat Mr. Trump is going to have to beat him on the economy.

And I have the experience and the expertise to show that he's a fake there and a fraud. Look, Mayor Pete has three years as an analyst at McKinsey. I have 30 years of international business experience. I can beat Trump on the economy. We're going to have to beat him on the economy. And I look forward to taking him down in the fall on the debate stage. And in just 20 days, we will have a better sense of this when Iowa voters go to caucus. In the meantime, there's an impeachment trial coming. And there was a lot of impeachment news today. We're going to catch up on that in the podcast tomorrow. But there's going to be a lot more that happens with impeachment on Wednesday. Until then, I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Asma Khalid. I'm covering the presidential campaign. I'm Danielle Kurtzleben.

I also am covering the presidential campaign. And I'm Scott Detrow, also covering the presidential campaign. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.