The NPR Politics Podcast - Democrats Want To Reform, Not Defund, Police

Episode Date: June 8, 2020

Congressional Democrats on Monday unveiled the Justice in Policing Act of 2020, which aims to install wide-ranging reforms for police departments across the country. It faces Republican opposition. Responding to a mantra of nationwide anti-racism protests, Joe Biden's campaign announced he doesn't support defunding police departments. Reform activists say their ask is more nuanced than that.In this episode: campaign correspondent Asma Khalid, congressional reporter Claudia Grisales, and congressional correspondent Kelsey Snell.Connect:Subscribe to the NPR Politics Podcast here.Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. It's 2.07 p.m. on Monday, June 8th. I'm Asma Khalid. I'm covering the 2020 presidential campaign. I'm Claudia Garizales. I cover Congress. And I'm Kelsey Snell. I also cover Congress. This morning, House Democrats unveiled a major new proposal to reform policing in this country. Today, this movement of that moment of national language is being transformed into a movement of national action as Americans from across the country peacefully protest to demand an end to injustice. Today, with the Justice in Policing Act, the Congress is standing with those fighting for justice and taking action. And Claudia, there are a lot of changes being suggested in this legislation. So can you begin by just walking us through a few of the key ideas? Oh, sure. It would prohibit

the use of chokeholds and lower legal standards to pursue criminal and civil penalties for police misconduct. It would ban no-knock warrants in drug-related cases. It would also create a national registry to track police misconduct. And that's just a few of the highlights. Others include limiting the transfer of military-grade weapons to state and local law enforcement. And it would also empower state attorneys general and the Justice Department to play a much larger role in its oversight of these police agencies. Claudia, I want to ask you one quick thing. When you're talking about creating a national registry to track police misconduct, is this because police officers who misbehave sometimes

in one department will go and move on to another police department in another location? Yes. So that's exactly why. It's this concern where a police officer can have a case of misconduct on their record, rather than address it with their current agency, they can just get up and leave and go to another agency. And that's the concern is they'll use this database to track these officers if they have that history. You know, this package also talks about changes to what's known as qualified immunity for police. Kelsey, can you talk to us about what that phrase means? Yeah, qualified

immunity has been used to shield police officers from lawsuits. And Democrats say that it prevents police officers from being accountable because it allows them to say that they can't be held liable for their actions when they were doing it, doing whatever they were doing under the cloak of law or they were acting on behalf of a law enforcement agency or any kind of branch of government. And it has been used pretty widely for officers when they are presented with lawsuits. And this is a major, major element of the bill that is actually expected to be very controversial. It's opposed by a lot of Republicans and frankly, a lot of Democrats. Though I will point out that this portion of the bill was written by Ayanna Pressley, a Democrat from Massachusetts. She is known as one of the squad. We've talked about them many times.

She is one of the more progressive freshman members of Congress. She wrote it with Justin Amash, who is now an independent after having left the Republican Party. He's, I guess, more of a libertarian vein of the Republican Party. So Kelsey, can you talk to me, you mentioned this is a major piece of this, but what is, what are they actually suggesting should happen to qualified immunity? They would like to eliminate qualified immunity. Entirely. They what they want. What Democrats want is they want police officers to be held accountable for their actions the same way as a member of the general public. They say it's part of the reason why there isn't a lot of trust in communities that where police violence is a major

concern. People say that they don't have recourse, that they can't go through the courts and the courts do not respond. So this is a major thing that Democrats want to have included in this bill. So, you know, what's notable to me is what's also not in this package. And there is no reference, no wording suggesting that Democrats want to defund the police. And that's a slogan I feel like I've been hearing a lot. I've heard a lot of chatter about that in the last couple of days. So, you know, both of you, I guess, just talk to me about why that's not in the package, given the kind of specifically, I guess, progressive chatter we've been hearing about defunding the police. So I think one of the concerns when we talk about defunding the police is what does it mean? And it seems to have a whole range of answers depending

on who you ask. And there's concerns about when people talk about defunding the police, is this get rid of the entire policing system in our community? Or is this just moving some of that money to other community programs? So Democrats have largely shied away from this, and it isn't in the bill. And it's something that we may continue to hear about from protesters, from certain activists. But when it comes to Democrats, it seems like it could be a small group right now who'd be interested in that. Part of the response that we hear, I think, is kind of characterized by two different versions of this response. One is House Speaker Pelosi

responded to a question about defunding the police, saying that police have to deal with various other issues that are not about just making sure that law and order is kept, like responding to mental health and education issues. And she said that they could look at what she's called rebalancing some of the funding to address those issues more directly. I think another part of this is we heard Karen Bass, who is the chair of the Congressional Black Caucus, respond to the question by saying that this bill is meant to transform policing. It's meant to change the way that police interact with the communities that they are in charge of protecting. And so they say that, you know, they're avoiding the question about funding by talking about action and changing the action and the I I guess, the entire implementation of policing. So regardless of whether or not this package is talking about defunding the police, it seems like

some of the rhetoric I've begun to see from Republicans is endorsing the president's message of emphasizing law and order. So where are Republicans on this idea of reforming the police? So I think we do hear that theme from Republicans. At the same time, we have heard alarm from a lot of Republicans, including Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, raising concerns about the George Floyd case and his killing in police custody and other cases of police brutality. Now, where Republicans seem to diverge is, so what's next? And they seem to be going in different directions there. For example, Senator Kelly Loeffler, she is from Georgia. She's facing a tough election fight this year. Today, she said she's going to propose legislation focused on funding police, making sure that that is secure. And so some folks are going in that direction.

Meanwhile, others, such as Senator Roy Blunt of Missouri, are reaching out to the Justice Department and saying, listen, we need to do more oversight here. There's alarm here. So we're seeing a whole range of responses. I mean, we should be clear that House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy did say last week that he was interested in finding some common ground, but he did not define what common ground actually means. There are Republicans, like

Claudia mentioned, that do want to work on this. I know Senator Cassidy from Louisiana is interested in doing this. And Roy Blunt is actually working with a member of the CBC, Congressional Black Caucus. He's working with Emanuel Cleaver, who I talked to last week, and they said that they are working on things that would go above and beyond this bill. Legislation like to address the patterns and practices investigations that the Justice Department was doing, largely under the Obama administration. Now, it's possible that these more discreet bills could have a life of their own outside of this broader reform package that Democrats are putting forward. All right, then let's take a quick break. And when we get back, we'll talk more about the calls to defund the police.

Support for NPR and the following message come from DuckDuckGo. Are you tired of being tracked online? DuckDuckGo can help. They help millions of people like you take control of their personal information online. DuckDuckGo can help. They help millions of people like you take control of their personal information online. With one download, you can search and browse privately, avoiding trackers. DuckDuckGo. Privacy simplified. This week on It's Been a Minute, I talk out the news with my Aunt Betty. I'm more concerned about the Black men that I love than anything in the world because I just don't want to get that call. Also, parenting in the age of Black Lives Matter and the history of police reform.

Listen and subscribe to It's Been a Minute from NPR. And we're back. And before we dive into discussing the idea of defunding the police because it means a lot of different things to a lot of different peoples. Let's try to define what it means because it does feel like this kind of catch-all, amorphous slogan. So, Claudia, what are we talking about when we hear people say defund the police? Yes, that's a very popular question these days, and it just varies by who you ask. Some folks would say, listen, this is not about taking money away completely from police departments. This is about diverting those funds, portions of those funds, to other efforts, to other community efforts. But I think what we're hearing when it comes to local officials and making changes, reforming their police departments in the cases that we have heard of, they're talking

about disbanding their police department. So basically, let's undo our current policing system in our city, and let's replace it with something else that works with our community in a better way. And so that's what we saw in Minneapolis, right? Exactly. So that's what we just heard about. Minneapolis City Council is moving forward with this plan to disband their police and they would replace it with something else, another form of policing that wouldn't look the way it does today. Now we did see this happen in Camden, New Jersey about eight years ago. The movement started there. They installed this change. They disbanded their police. Their county police,

their county law enforcement took over public safety in that area. So I think that's the theme we're hearing a little bit more from local officials when they talk about changes is disbanding versus defunding. Got it. You know, Claudia hit on something there that I think is probably important to talk about whenever we're talking about policing, that much of the authority over police departments, law enforcement, and the entire process of policing happens at the state and local level. And traditionally, that's actually been a way that Congress has stepped aside from trying to actually have any hand in any of this is just to say, you know, this is a state and local issue. We're seeing a major change here

where Congress is trying to step into a space they would normally be avoiding. Hmm. And, you know, how you guys are talking about defund the police makes it clear that this means differing things. But what I think is interesting is we have begun to see some Republicans try to throw this slogan as if it's like sort of a political weapon against a whole bunch of Democrats just when they're talking about police reform. Oh, my inbox is full. I don't know about you, Claudia, but my inbox is full. Mine too. Ex-Congress person, ex-Democrat embraces defund the police and then a picture of a member of Congress in a protest or out marching. And we should be clear, these members of Congress haven't really said that they want to defund the police in all these cases,

no. By and large, they've said absolutely nothing about this or they've avoided the question. I raised this issue with Ayanna Pressley, the progressive Democrat we were just talking about. I asked her earlier today, you know, what do you do? How do you respond to a situation where defund the police is becoming a new version of the Republican attack line about all Democrats being socialists? And this is what she said. I mean, those efforts are always underway. So we won't, we will not allow that narrative to persist and to obstruct the work that we need to do as a legislative body. She called it predictable. She called it a painful thing for them to be doing. But she says that it's a way to try to kind of co-opt a message and use it back against Democrats. But they're walking such a delicate line here where they're trying to get major police reforms through in a moment when there is a genuine political uprising, largely from their own base. And separating those two things may not be so easy as dismissing it. And we've definitely seen the Trump campaign very eager to use this type of messaging against Joe Biden, right? I mean, I don't know if you all saw this, but there were definitely attacks from the Trump campaign suggesting that Joe Biden was supportive,

trying to tie him essentially with this defund police movement. And his campaign came out this morning with a pretty clear statement from his spokesman saying that Biden does not believe the police should be defunded. And what I thought was interesting is there's no room for kind of wavering in that statement. It was very clear. The campaign then pointed out that he has called for additional investments in community policing and additional funding for body cameras. He wants reform, they said. But the first line was very clear that he does not believe the police should be defunded.

I mean, listen, this is what Republicans want to see happen, right? They want to see reporters asking every single Democrat, do you support defunding the police? Right. It creates a bit of a wedge issue for them to use, especially during this very heated partisan election season. It also might make it harder for them to get this bill passed if Democrats, more moderate Democrats from less liberal districts, like, say, an Abigail Spanberger in Virginia or an Alyssa Slotkin in Michigan, is being forced to answer questions about whether or not they support defunding the police and tying this bill to that message might make it really hard for them to vote for it. We don't know yet because this is a really new bill. And frankly, lawmakers aren't in Washington for us to ask them.

All right, then. Well, let's leave it there for now. We'll be back bill. And frankly, lawmakers aren't in Washington for us to ask them. All right, then. Well, let's leave it there for now. We'll be back tomorrow. Until then, you can keep up with all the latest updates by heading to NPR.org, listening to your local public radio station or the NPR One app. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the presidential campaign. I'm Claudia Grisales.

I cover Congress. And I'm Kelsey Snell. I also cover Congress. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.