The NPR Politics Podcast - Donald Trump's First Criminal Trial Begins In New York

Episode Date: April 15, 2024

Trump faces 34 felony counts alleging that he falsified New York business records in order to conceal damaging information to influence the 2016 presidential election. This is the first time in U.S. history a former president will be tried on criminal charges.This episode: political correspondent Susan Davis, senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro, and national justice correspondent Carrie Johnson.This podcast was produced by Kelli Wessinger and Casey Morell. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Listen to every episode of the NPR Politics Podcast sponsor-free, unlock access to bonus episodes with more from the NPR Politics team, and support public media when you sign up for The NPR Politics Podcast+ at plus.npr.org/politics.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Autograph Collection Hotels, with over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of hotel brands. Find the unforgettable at AutographCollection.com. Hi, this is Annette from Los Angeles, California. I'm currently on the way to take the LSAT for law school admissions, which I have been studying really hard for. I hope today will be a one and done so I can finally have my social life back. This podcast was recorded at 1234 p.m.

on Monday, April 15th. Things may have changed by the time you hear it, including the fact that I would have finished my first and hopefully final attempt at taking this excruciating test. Anyways, enjoy the show. It does sound excruciating, I'm going to be honest. No doubt about that, but I have something to tell her about the first year of law school and a social life that might be informative in the future. What, that you don't have one? Yep.

That is a tough test and goes exactly with the theme for our podcast this week. So nice job to the producers. Hey there. It's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. I'm Domenica Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent. And I'm Keri Johnson.

I cover the Justice Department. And former president and current Republican candidate Donald Trump is back in court in New York today. We've talked a lot about how unusual this presidential campaign is, but it's worth noting this is the first time a former president has ever faced a criminal trial. Carrie, we've talked about this case in the past, but can you catch us up to speed and remind us what the charges are against Donald Trump in this case? Sure thing. This is the case filed by the district attorney in New York, Alvin Bragg. It involves 34 charges of falsifying bookkeeping or accounting records. Trump faces the lowest level felonies in New York. So even if he is eventually convicted, because he has no criminal record, it's unlikely he'd receive jail time. But all of this stems from what happened in 2016, Sue. This is when Michael Cohen, Trump's

then-fixer, paid the adult film star Stormy Daniels $130,000 before the 2016 election, allegedly to keep quiet about a relationship she had with Trump. Then Trump reimbursed Michael Cohen, allegedly after the election, calling it legal fees. But really, the DA says it was this hush money payment so that voters would never find out that Trump had a dalliance with Stormy Daniels, with another woman named Karen McDougal, a Playboy playmate, and another chunk of money to a doorman who was also peddling a salacious story about Donald Trump. The trial starts today, but we should note it's jury selection that begins. How long is this process expected to take?

You know, I think we need to do some expectations management here. The wheels of justice grind so slowly. Trump arrived at the courthouse this morning, but they still haven't seen or talked to any jurors. The judge in this case, Juan Marchand, says about 500 prospective jurors have been cooling their jets. But in the meantime, they've been dealing with all kind of other business, like what kind of evidence the jury might be able to see, certain arguments Trump tried to make once again to knock this judge off the case, which the judge denied. So this could take days. It could even take more than a week to get a jury in this case.

Dominica, we were just talking about this last week. The potential jurors have to fill out this 42-question questionnaire. You know, it seems pretty complicated to do jury selection in a case like this because how many New Yorkers don't have strong feelings about Donald Trump? Yeah, I'm imagining all of the people in the, like, overflow rooms, you know, having to fill out this 42- questionnaire, like the first time you go to a doctor's office, you know, and they ask a lot of stuff sort of around political affiliation. You know, they're, they're not asking if you're a Democrat or a Republican,

but they're asking things like what podcasts do you listen to? Hopefully this one, they ask your news consumption. They even are asking things like whether or not you've ever had any affiliation with extremist groups like the Proud Boys, the Boogaloo Boys, and on the left, a movement like Antifa. So there's a lot that goes into this questionnaire and then the lawyers from each side, they're trying to weed out people who definitely would be against them. That's for sure. But, you know, the judge had told both sides here that just because politics is at play and just because this is a high profile case doesn't mean you can't pick a jury with people who are going to be able to be impartial despite whatever their personal politics are. Yeah, I read something that I thought was notable that jurors would not be asked who they voted for in the past and also would not be asked who they plan to vote for in this year's presidential election.

Yeah, and I think that's an important piece of things here because this really does feel like something that's of the Trump era where almost everything is viewed through a political lens and party identification has become, you know, almost the principal reason for anyone saying that they believe anything. And we've seen that in polling. So, you know, being able to have a jury that's impartial, this is going to be a group that does go through a fairly significant vetting considering this questionnaire. You know, the thing that always strikes me about jury selection, having covered this stuff for a long, long time, is that it's always shocking to people like me who read a couple of newspapers a day and listen to NPR. Regular people don't have time to do that often. So they may not be as aware of the allegations against Trump. And they don't need to know nothing about Donald Trump. They need to be

able to keep an open mind. That's the standard the judge is looking for. Carrie, you also referenced that there's already been some tensions with the judge in the case, and it seems like the former president could also be testing his patience with a gag order that the judge put on him. Just over the weekend, Trump on social media criticized various people involved in the case, including his former lawyer, Michael Cohen. Isn't this exactly what the judge told him not to be doing? Yes. And this morning, the prosecutors have asked the judge to hold Trump in contempt and to sanction him $1,000 for each violation. Three violations, they point out, involving Michael Cohen, Stormy Daniels and some other commentary Trump made.

And they want the judge to warn Trump that if he keeps this up, he could be incarcerated. The judge has not yet ruled on any of those issues, but I think this is going to be a tension moving forward. The judge also pointed out to Donald Trump this morning that he has a right to appear for everything, for jury selection, for other parts of the proceeding, but that he should not disrupt the proceeding. And if he does, he could get in big trouble. Do you anticipate that Donald Trump is going to be in the courtroom for the jury selection process? I think it makes sense for Donald Trump, in part because he seems to have such confidence in his ability as a salesperson. And this is the potential jury's first look at

this guy. And they could react in some ways or take some clues from his body language. I think a guy who's that interested in persuading people and selling them will want to get an eye on these jurors. Carrie, also, I was struck by comments that Trump himself made recently suggesting that he could testify in this case. Does that seem likely? Sue, that's what he said. But it's really probably unwise for the former president to put himself out there on the stand in this case, in part because it hurt him in this case, given all the posting he's done on social media and all of his public statements about some of the allegations. But also, he's facing three other prosecutions down the line in Georgia, Washington, D.C., and Florida. And so he could open himself up to really a world of hurt, not just about his

criminal trouble, but also his recent civil trouble. Remember, his company has gotten in trouble, and he has been on the losing end of two defamation awards in a case filed by the writer E. Jean Carroll as well. All right, let's take a quick break, and we'll the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Download the WISE app today or visit WISE.com. T's and C's apply. And we're back. And former President Trump is about to spend the next several weeks inside a courtroom in Manhattan. Domenico, normally in a presidential election year, this is exactly the time of year that

would be peak campaign season. They would be barnstorming through swing states. How's it affecting the race? Trump is most likely going to have to be in court four days a week, you know, Wednesdays and the weekends, essentially, he'll have off to be able to campaign. Frankly, I don't know how much it's going to change how things are going on the campaign trail because Trump hasn't been campaigning that much. You know, he does these big rallies usually on a Saturday night in a swing state often, but

he's not doing the traditional, you know, grip and grin on a rope line, going to diners, meeting people. His celebrity and outsized personality and the fact that he was president once, he feels he doesn't really need to do that because there's 100% name identification for both of these guys. But it certainly is potentially hampering for somebody who wants to be able to get out on the campaign trail. And he doesn't have the money right now, it seems, to even run many ads across the country because we're just not seeing any Trump ads really running almost anywhere at this point. So, you know, he's not going to be on the campaign trail very much and he's not on the

airwaves. So what does that mean for his campaign? We're going to see if it moves any of the numbers, you know, in a couple of weeks. Yeah. I mean, you just have to think about when it comes to what it takes to run a presidential campaign, even not just the campaign appearances, but the fundraising that has to go on the travel that has to go on. It does seem as long as Trump is occupied in this way, it does give an advantage to President Biden, who is running a much more traditional presidential campaign operation. You know, it's too soon to say, but I was getting emails from the Trump campaign all weekend long and this morning, too, hyping the fact that he was going to trial today and in his view is being persecuted.

And I wonder how many small donors are interested in donating to him based on his appeals about this case in particular. Well, I was just going to say that this is actually these trials have actually been his biggest fundraising vehicle over the last year or so, you know, that he was able to raise a lot of money around these events. He's seen sort of diminishing returns, though, over the last couple of months of this and these kind of fundraising pushes. I mean, we got an email at 8.51am this morning with Trump now calling them the Biden trials, essentially saying that Biden is coming after him. Although this has nothing to do with the president, this isn't even a federal

case. This is something that local prosecutors decided to take up. Carrie, once they get through jury selection, which you said could be days, could be weeks, they'll get into the actual trial. Is there an expectation on how long the actual trial will take? It's supposed to last between six and eight weeks. But I want to emphasize, it's just not clear. This is kind of a first of its kind proceeding involving the former president who can be a chaos agent. And so it's not clear to me we're going to stick to schedule entirely. And there's also something else here, which is when you bring the justice system and the jury into the equation, a lot of unpredictable things can happen. You know, I've covered trials over the last few years where jurors

got COVID and where witnesses were ill and required kind of a changing of the lineup. So it's just not entirely clear whether we're going to stick to that schedule. And also, you know, I remember 20 years ago covering a big case in that building in New York at Center Street in lower Manhattan. And I remember how dilapidated the courthouse was at that point. And I think it's not much better now. I think I saw a rodent in there in the 2004 era, and it wouldn't surprise me if they've still got them. But in that case, which was against a major corporate CEO for fraud allegations, the whole case blew up toward the end of the trial based on a hand gesture. A juror allegedly flashed at the defendant and then outside people got involved sending letters to the juror and the whole thing blew up and they had to do it all over again. So I'm not saying that's going to happen in this case, but because it's Manhattan, because there are so many extraneous factors in play here, and because Donald Trump is involved, we should leave some

room for surprise, I think. Yeah, and delay, right? I mean, if that's the case, and we're looking at a six to eight week trial, we're looking at sometime in June for when we could have any kind of a verdict. And, you know, that this could be the only trial that Trump winds up seeing classified documents, his role in the January 6th attack on the Capitol and that racketeering case in Georgia, it's possible that this criminal trial is the only verdict that the public has prior to the election. And not just possible, I think that's quite likely. The Florida case involving classified documents stored at Mar-a-Lago and that Trump allegedly refused to hand back to the FBI, that one was supposed to go to trial in May. There's no chance of that happening. They're bogged down in all kinds of issues regarding classified information. And Judge Eileen Cannon in that case has really moved very slowly. In Georgia, there was a lot of

talk and back and forth about the conduct of DA Fannie Willis and the prosecutor she hired to handle the case. And that's also bogged down. And in D.C., this federal election interference case in D.C. involving January 6, 2021, it's all going to depend on what the Supreme Court does and when it does it. Remember, former President Trump is claiming he has absolute immunity for any actions he took while in office. Even if the court, the high court disagrees with the former president, if they don't get the show on the road this summer, it's possible that trial won't even kick off before the election either. All right. Well, that is it for us today.

I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. I'm Domenica Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent. And I'm Carrie Johnson. I cover the Justice Department. And thanks for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.