The NPR Politics Podcast - From A Basement In Lviv, The Latest On Russia's Invasion of Ukraine

Episode Date: March 14, 2022

The UN says more than 600 civilians been killed, though the true number is likely far higher. Russia's attacks have begun to reach the westernmost parts of the country, including on a military installation near Ukraine's border with Poland.This episode: White House correspondent Asma Khalid, White House correspondent Franco Ordoñez, and correspondent Ryan Lucas.Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Thank you. This is day 19 of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. And so far, nearly 600 civilian fatalities have been confirmed from the violence in just the last couple of weeks, including an American journalist. That's the official tally from the United Nations. But the true death toll is expected to be much higher. Officials from Ukraine and Russia are ostensibly still in talks, but those discussions show very little signs of progress. Russia insists the invasion will continue until all of its goals have been accomplished. Ryan, before we really get into the substance of what I want to ask you about, where are you right now? Well, you may

actually hear a fair amount of noise behind me, and that's because I'm currently sitting in the bomb shelter of where a team of NPR reporters are staying. There's a guy over there with a guitar playing some music. There are people sitting on the floor on yoga mats. They've got computers out. I'm sitting next to a Christmas tree for no clear reason. But, yeah, we have had a lot of air raid sirens in the past couple days in Lviv, actually from 2.30 to 7.30 this morning. We were down in the air raid shelter again, sleeping on the tile floor.

So that's kind of what life looks like here in Lviv right now. And Lviv, frankly, is one of the safest places in Ukraine at the moment. So, Ryan, you last joined us on the podcast a week ago, and a lot has changed since last Monday. I mean, I'm sure in some ways the conflict, the war, it feels like some things haven't changed. But walk us through what's changed in this last week. So in terms of the fighting on the ground, a lot hasn't changed, actually. There's still a ton of fighting around Kyiv, but the Ukrainian government remains in control of the capital. There's fighting in the east, fighting in the north, fighting in the south. The town of Mariupol still is under siege by Russian forces.

The humanitarian situation there remains dire. We hear that from residents. But what has changed is we have seen more Russian military strikes to hit places in western Ukraine, where I am. There were a couple of strikes a couple of days ago that hit airfields, one in a town called Lutsk, another in a city called Ivano-Frankivsk. And then yesterday there was an airstrike that hit a base about 30 kilometers west of Lviv. And that is a base where actually U.S. and NATO forces used to train Ukrainian troops. They have, you know, the U.S. and NATO troops all cleared out

before this war began. But there were 35 people killed in that strike yesterday. And the sort of couple of days of strikes hitting targets in western Ukraine certainly punctured, I think for some people, the sense of safety and normalcy that has in many ways kind of permeated life here in the West for the past 19 days. And Ryan, throughout all of this, we've seen Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky repeatedly making these direct appeals to foreign leaders.

He's set to talk to the U.S. Congress again on Wednesday. What is he asking for? And what is he trying to do in making these direct appeals to a number of leaders? I mean, specifically here with Congress? I expect that the speech that Zelensky delivered is probably going to be fairly similar to one that he delivered last week to the House of Commons. He made an appeal for all the support that Britain could give, made an appeal again for this no-fly zone, which is something that you hear repeatedly from Zelensky, you hear from other Ukrainian leaders, but you also hear it from Ukrainians on the street. So it's something that people here desperately want. I'm curious to hear from you, as I was a week ago, whether anything has changed on that front from the administration.

Well, I can tell you that, you know, with this conversation with Congress, I mean, I think it's likely it's a sign of the growing momentum on Capitol Hill to to send more help, you know, maybe not necessarily or, you know, we'll see about the fly zone. But, you know, as you know, Ryan, there have been calls to send fighter jets to Kiev, which Zelensky has also been pushing for for weeks. The Biden administration has resisted that they do not want to do anything seen as engaging in direct combat with Russian forces. But, you know, there's more and more energy towards giving more help to Ukraine. I mean, Zelensky is, you know, I expect this will be a really powerful speech by Zelensky. I mean, he's, as you know more than anyone else, you know, in this car right now, Zelensky is the face of this fight. You know, he's been really effective at inspiring his people and much of the West to get behind Ukraine through his videos and, you know, messaging that he's not going to run away, that he's going to stay.

And he's already pushed Westerners to take more steps than expected. And I think we'll see more of that on Wednesday when he gives that speech. All right, let's take a quick break and we'll have lots more to talk about in just a moment. And we're back. And Ryan, you're still with us, is that right? I am, but we did just get the all clear, which means people are going to head back upstairs. It is good. It is good. That's great. Okay, so it might get a little quieter on your end of the line for good reasons. So from the White House's perch, this conflict in Ukraine is not limited to just what happens within the borders of Ukraine.

There is really a larger geostrategic dynamic involved here. There was news over the weekend that Russia reportedly requested military assistance from China, and U.S. National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan met with officials from China today. Franco, I don't know that we've gotten all the intel on what transpired from that meeting yet, but how do you interpret what's going on here? Yeah, I mean, Sullivan was there, you know, expectedly to warn Beijing against helping Russia. You know, he was pretty blunt on Sunday on CNN, for example, warning that the United States would not allow China to provide a, quote, lifeline to Russia to avoid economic sanctions. The United States is very concerned about China getting more involved, offering that lifeline. And as you said, the reports about Russia asking China for

military equipment, you know, it's a big deal. I mean, China is obviously a key partner to Russia. China has refused to call Moscow's actions in Ukraine an invasion. And the United States has also accused China of spreading Russian misinformation about chemical weapons, for example. But China also does need to tread carefully, hence this meeting with Sullivan. Because the United States and the European Union are very big trading partners as well for China.

So they have a lot of different interests involved that China must contend with. There's another angle of the geopolitical and geostrategic kind of ripple effects of this war in Ukraine. And one of them comes from the strike that we saw yesterday. And I want to ask you two about this since you covered the White House. You know, the strike that happened yesterday hit a base that was only 10 miles from the Polish border. Poland, of course, is a NATO member. How big of a concern is it there that a NATO member might get hit and then the U.S. is going to have to do something? And what would the U.S. do? I mean, I can speak about, you know,

sort of the reassurances that the Biden administration has been trying to make, particularly to the eastern flank of NATO. I was traveling with the vice president just at the end of last week. We went to both Poland and Romania. And I will say there seemed to be this palpable fear amongst the leaders, just in the way they spoke about the conflict. It seemed like they were deeply concerned that Russian President Vladimir Putin has these sorts of imperialist ambitions and that he might not just stop at the borders of Ukraine. And really, it seemed like the vice president was there,

Kamala Harris, to reassure these NATO allies that the United States has their back. And as she said many times, that the United States sees an attack on one as an attack on all, and that they will defend, they have said repeatedly, every inch of NATO territory. And it really did seem like she was there to alleviate concerns. This really does speak to the very delicate, fine balancing act that it feels like the Biden administration is trying to walk here because they have been very clear from the get-go that there will not be U.S. troops fighting on the ground in Ukraine. They continue to want to support Ukraine through security assistance, and now we're seeing also large sums of humanitarian assistance. But they have also been very cognizant of not wanting to get dragged into a greater conflict with Russia.

I mean, they say that they don't want this conflict, that NATO, they don't want to see an escalated conflict where NATO gets dragged into it. And it feels like a very, very delicate balancing act. You know, the Congress just approved a $13.6 billion package in emergency military and humanitarian aid for Ukraine. But it's been resistant, though, to, for example, send military jets into Ukraine. And it's also been resistant, as we were talking before, of enforcing a no-fly zone. And, you know, there's a lot of concern for very, very, very good reasons is that they just do not want this to turn into a much bigger, larger conflict. The concern is this spilling over. You know, there's all this, the attacks in the West, the nuclear brinksmanship, it all has these echoes of the Cold War. And that can be pretty scary, depending on how far down the road it goes.

You know, Ryan, before we let you go, we've spent so much of this conversation talking about the military conflict itself. But obviously, there's, you know, very, there is a very severe humanitarian crisis that's developing as a result of everything that's going on. I know you've been reporting on some of that. Just talk to us a little bit about that. Yeah, it's a pretty dire situation in a lot of places here. Some of the cities like Kharkiv in the north and suburbs of Kyiv, people are desperate to flee. People have been killed trying to flee. And there's a situation in the southern port city of Mariupol, which has been under siege for days, mentioned it earlier, and our colleague Lauren Freyer was speaking to someone there this morning

who looked out his window and said, it looks like something out of a World War II movie. And he told her, oh, can you hear the airplane in the background? Can you hear the shelling? Because it was going on when she was on the phone with him. And he told her that he has one more day of food. That's all that he has left. And the situation is getting increasingly worse.

And unfortunately, it looks like other cities in Ukraine may go through similar things in the days and weeks and months to come, if this doesn't come to an end. All right. Well, stay safe, Ryan. Wish you well. And I really appreciated hearing your report. So thank you very much. Thank you. Stay safe, Ryan. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. I'm Frank Ordonez. I also cover the White House. And I'm Ryan Lucas in Lviv, Ukraine. And thank you all, as always, for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.