The NPR Politics Podcast - Georgia Used Terrorism Law To Detain Activists Protesting Police

Episode Date: July 5, 2023

In Atlanta, dozens of activists who oppose a new police and fire training facility are being accused of domestic terrorism. That has alarmed civil liberties and human rights groups — and reignited a national discussion over policing.Protestors have alleged that law enforcement are targeting out-of-state visitors for arrest. In an interview on WANF-TV, Georgia's Attorney General Christopher Carr said "if you come to this state, engage in acts of violence to destroy infrastructure and property with the intended effect of changing public policy, it is a domestic terrorism charge." Carr's office did not respond to NPR requests for an interview.This episode: national political correspondent Sarah McCammon, domestic extremism correspondent Odette Yousef, and senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro.The podcast is produced by Elena Moore and Casey Morell. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Unlock access to this and other bonus content by supporting The NPR Politics Podcast+. Sign up via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hi, this is Annie in Christchurch, New Zealand. I'm getting ready for my first day as a volunteer for the FIFA Women's World Cup. This podcast was recorded at 109 p.m. Eastern Time on July 5th, 2023. Things may have changed, but I'm still supporting these incredible athletes. Okay, enjoy the show. That's awesome. Go USA, by the way. The women should do pretty well. Sounds way more fun than politics. That's awesome. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Sarah McCammon. I cover politics.

I'm Odette Youssef. I cover domestic extremism. And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent. Police in Georgia are building a large new training facility that has drawn major protests. Activists who've labeled the training complex Cop City are being arrested and accused of domestic terrorism. But even after months, none of them have been formally charged. And Odette, you spent some time in Atlanta recently. Let's start with that. What drew your attention to this story, first of all? So it's the domestic terrorism statute, Sarah, and how it's being used here.

So since December, law enforcement officials in Georgia have arrested 42 people, and the arrest warrants cite a domestic terrorism statute. Now, they haven't been formally indicted yet, but it's interesting because there is no federal domestic terrorism law. When you think about federal terrorism cases that are charges that have committed crimes motivated by some sort of untested still, Sarah. And so here in Georgia, we may be seeing kind of an interesting, like, first test case of the constitutionality of these state domestic terrorism statutes. Really interesting. And as we've said, a lot of this centers around this complex, this training complex called Cop City. Why, first of all, Odette, do police say that they need this facility to be built? So to be clear, the term Cop City is what the opponents of this project have been calling it. It's officially known as the Atlanta Public Safety Training Facility. This is going to be

an 85-acre training facility, both for police and fire in Atlanta. And the city has said that it needs it because basically its former training facility has completely deteriorated. It's been condemned. Critics say that it was allowed to deteriorate to kind of set the stage for this project. But this is going to be really quite a large campus built in mostly what's currently a forested piece of property that the city of Atlanta owns. And the city has said that this facility is going to help them become more effective and lower their use of force rate because they'll be able to sort of simulate more real world scenarios on this property and practice de-escalation tactics. But of course, critics are

highly skeptical of that. Yeah, that's what police say. What are the activists saying about the project? Well, this has been just very interesting, because if you're looking at this project as like a snapshot in what's going on in leftist movements right now, this particular project has brought together this very interesting and diverse group of opponents. You've got environmentalists who are really concerned about the raising of forest in what's called one of the four lungs of Atlanta. You've got people that are police abolitionists or racial justice advocates who are really concerned about this level of investment in policing in Atlanta. You've got people that are just sort of fiscally

concerned about this because the cost of the project is turning out to be multiples higher than what was initially disclosed. There are people that are really just sort of like anti-capitalists that are concerned about this too, because there's a lot of private and corporate bankrolling of this project. But I think what's really causing the most concern is that the size of this project and the designs as currently known have led many to believe that there's going to be sort of a highly militarized form of policing at this campus. And not that it would just be limited to the Atlanta police, but that this could actually be used in training police from all over the country that would actually come to Atlanta for training exercises there. You know, Domenico, even outside of Georgia, there's a lot of concern among Democratic

activists about police abuse. That's still an animating concern. How does this fit into the larger picture here? Well, definitely for progressives, this is a major issue, you know, and this is an animating issue. It's a motivating issue. And it's one that there's been tension with the White House on and with President Biden in particular, who's been trying to look to the center because that's where a lot of these presidential elections are won or lost. He's sort of walked this fine line between wanting to reform police departments but also having police back. And that's rankled some especially young progressive activists on this issue. And it's a difficult line to walk for Democrats in particular, nuance doesn't do great in politics. And when there are extreme voices on either end, you know, in politics, it's not always

intellectually honest. And, you know, there's always one side looking to, you know, take the most extreme example of something that's happening and pin that as the whole of the party or the whole of what people are thinking or talking about. All right. We're going to talk more about that in just a second. But first, it's time for a quick break. We'll be back. And we're back. Odette, you actually met some people who had had encounters with police as part of their activism, as part of this movement. What did they tell you? So I've spoken with three people who've been accused of domestic terrorism in Georgia. None of them would comment on the exact circumstances of their arrests, but they all said to me that they had not committed any criminal activity when they were arrested. But the thing that I think is interesting is that all of them are from out of state. And I spoke with one of these three, Alex Papali, about that a little bit more. And what he told me was very interesting was that at the end of this music festival that was sort of capping off the end of the last week of action, which was in March, you know, the police came to this forest to arrest people.

It was dark. People started kind of running in a panic through the forest, and the police were sort of catching whoever they could. And what Alex told me is they were all brought into the parking lot, and police asked to see the IDs for everybody, and they separated out the Georgia residents from the non-Georgia residents, and they let the Georgia residents go. And then the non-Georgia residents were taken to the DeKalb County Jail. It couldn't have been more transparent

that they were trying to create this narrative outside, agitators coming in to disrupt a peaceful community, when the reality was there was a lot of local residents who also were supporting this event. And so he's very interested to know, you know, what he is going to be accused of that would be any different from what those Georgia residents were up to at the music festival. And nobody's been indicted yet. Now, this is, of course, a story more about policing and prosecution than about crime per se. But I do want to mention violent crime is falling in much of the country after spiking during the pandemic. And that's coming after some real losses for progressive politicians over concerns about crime. New York City elected Eric Adams, a Republican turned Democrat and former police officer to lead that city, for example.

You know, Domenico, do you see crime remaining a high profile issue in the next year or two or is that fading? There are a lot of different issues, obviously, that people are concerned about. I mean, when you look at the top issues, crime doesn't necessarily rise to the top of those lists. But it is one of those issues that continues to be used as an animating issue for a lot of Republicans who are saying that crime is up in different places. And a lot of cities, remember, are run by Democrats. So it's an easy way for Republicans to point the finger and say, look, this is Democrats' fault. For a lot of Democratic progressive activists, this is a key and important issue. like carjackings or vandalism or things that people can see outside of their homes in places where that doesn't normally happen in the suburbs or in some of these more swing areas,

that that can have an effect at the margins and make it more impactful. I mean, remember, in local elections, crime is probably the number one issue, more of a threshold issue than in a presidential election when you're really looking at a choice between two politicians who mostly who you agree with largely on one broad set of ideologies or another. Now, Odette, these state domestic terrorism laws we've been talking about, they're still pretty rare. They've also drawn a lot of scrutiny from civil rights groups. What are you watching for from here? Yeah, so I think what's rare is, you know, a state statute that actually uses those terms, domestic terrorism. As far as we've been able to find, there are three states, Georgia, New York, and Vermont that use those words in their statutes. But almost every state really has

statutes about terrorism, and many of them in their statutes have similar language. You know, looking at what Georgia's law says, you know, this is criminalizing conduct intended to alter, change, or coerce the policy of the government of this state or any of its political subdivisions by intimidation or coercion. You'll see that kind of wording in many, many states' anti-terrorism laws. And the concern about this is that it becomes quite subjective. You know, who is determining what conduct was intended to coerce the government and for what reason? And when are they making the decision to actually apply that statute and charge someone? That sort of subjectivity has many people concerned that it

could be misused for political means to repress the free speech rights of one's political opponents. All right, let's stop there for today. I'm Sarah McCammon. I cover politics. I'm Odette Youssef. I cover domestic extremism. And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.