The NPR Politics Podcast - Georgia's Runoff Ends. Doomed Electoral College Certification Fight Begins.

Episode Date: January 5, 2021

Voters cast the final ballots in Georgia's Senate runoff elections Tuesday, ending the state's two months at the center of the political universe.Now, attention shifts back to Washington, where many Republican lawmakers will take a theatrical, if ill-fated, stand against certifying President-elect Joe Biden as president-elect. This episode: political reporter Danielle Kurtzleben, national correspondent Sarah McCammon, congressional reporter Claudia Grisales, and senior political editor and correspondent Ron Elving.Connect:Subscribe to the NPR Politics Podcast here.Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Listen to our playlist The NPR Politics Daily Workout.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This is Trey in Cleveland, Ohio, and I got an email over the holidays that I listened to 40,374 minutes of content on the NPR One app. This puts me in the top 2% of the NPR Politics podcast listeners. This specific podcast was recorded at 2.12 p.m. on January 5th, 2021. Things may have changed by the time you hear it, but I will probably still be listening to NPR. Enjoy the show. I swear we did not pay him to say that, everyone. Amazing winner, gold medal. I know. All right. Hey there. It is the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Danielle Kurtzleben. I cover politics. I'm Claudia Grisales. I cover Congress. It is the last day of voting in Georgia with two

runoff elections for Senate seats, one between Democrat John Ossoff and Republican David Perdue, the other between Democrat Raphael Warnock and Republican Kelly Loeffler. These, as we've been saying on this podcast, are enormously important races. They will determine the balance of power in the Senate chamber, which means huge implications for how much of his agenda President-elect Joe Biden might be able to enact. And so joining us, we have NPR's Sarah McCammon. She is a Georgia expert. She used to work for our member station in Georgia. Hello, Sarah. That's right, I did. And hello. Happy New Year. Yes, you too. It's great to talk to you again. So let's get right down to business. Both the president and the president-elect have been campaigning in the state recently.

What are the closing arguments here on both sides in both of these races? So the big theme is what you were just talking about, Danielle, just how high the stakes are here, how much significance these two runoffs have, not just for Georgia, but for the whole country. In Atlanta, Biden yesterday said the power is literally in your hands. One state can chart the court, not just for the next four years, but for a generation. President Trump has also stressed during his rally here in Dalton, where I'm recording from today, he was in Dalton last night. He stressed the importance of Republicans getting out the vote in huge numbers and reelecting those Republican senators. But he also spent a lot of time weaving in and out of talking about the Senate runoff, while also talking about his own grievances with

Republican elections officials here and the Republican governor who have affirmed Biden's win in Georgia, something he still does not accept. And he continues to tout these conspiracy theories, debunk conspiracy theories about voter fraud. You know, it's interesting that we have seen Washington, D.C. very focused on this race. It's really impacted the politics here. For example, some would argue that this recent wave of coronavirus relief aid was passed in part to boost these candidates that they both want to argue on both sides of the aisle that they help bring that through and is bringing it to voters in Georgia. Meanwhile, in terms of

these national implications, we're also seeing potential 2024 candidates down there in the field trying to reach out to voters, perhaps at the beginnings of their own aspirations of trying to run for president in 2024. Well, and one measure that kind of blew my mind, although maybe it's not that shocking when you think about it, is that these two races are now the number one and number two most expensive Senate races ever, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. And on top of that, it just seems like everything about these races is huge. Turnout has already broken Georgia's record for Senate runoff turnouts.

I mean, Sarah, what does that look like on the ground? Is it just being bombarded with ads, phone calls, that sort of thing constantly? Yeah, that's my sense. I mean, just driving down the highway, you see billboards everywhere. You see signs all over the place. And, of course, as we've mentioned, lots of outside money, hundreds of millions of dollars in ads have been spent on these races from Georgia and across the country, lots of outside people, so to speak, both grassroots organizers and volunteers and paid staffers. You know, the Democrats have a huge ground game here. Republicans also have a lot of people canvassing, at least in the past few days since I've been here.

Both sides do realize just how significant these runoffs are, and they're making their last big push. What issues seem to be at the center of the race here? What issues are the parties bringing up? Or maybe more pointedly, to what degree is this a race about the issues? Or is it just about nationalized politics? Is it all about Trump, Biden, Senate control, that sort of thing? I'd say it's much more the latter. Just a little side note, there is a third runoff election in Georgia today for public service commissioner. And in that race, people are talking about things like utility costs in Georgia. But in general, in the two big races, everyone's paying the most attention to the Senate runoffs.

It really is primarily about national politics and not just Senate control. But big issues facing the country like the coronavirus pandemic. I've heard a couple of voters, Democratic voters mentioned that as a big concern. Over the weekend in Warner Robins, Georgia, I met Danielle Goins. She works in health care. She's 55. She was at a rally for Warnock. And she said she is really motivated to elect these two Democrats. Because we got to stop Mitch. We had to stop Mitch because Mitch McConnell has already showed his hand on what he would do. He doesn't care about Americans. And if you are not in a high, rich, he doesn't care about you. And she was referring, of course, to the coronavirus relief package that Claudia was

just mentioning and, you know, expressing the feeling that it really fell short of what Americans really need, especially those who've lost jobs to get through this crisis. And Sarah, what are you hearing from Republicans? We've been hearing so much come out of the state, including President Trump, who called into the state recently raising these claims that the elections in Georgia have been rigged. What have you been hearing from other Republicans in the state? You know, Claudia, the people that come to these events to rallies and, you know, get out the vote events and canvassing are motivated, engaged Republicans. So I want to caveat this with that. But the people I'm meeting are, at minimum, they

don't trust the system. And many of them are very, very angry. I talked to Bruce Carter, he's 66, lives outside Atlanta, and he'd come to Dalton last night to this Trump rally. He said it's his seventh Trump rally, and he still refuses to accept the election results. I asked him why he won't believe Republican elections officials in Georgia who affirm Biden's victory. And he raised some baseless conspiracy theories. I think their wallets got fat. Yep, time will tell, but it ain't right. Do you have anything to back that up?

Why else would they do it? Possibly because it's true? Nah. Trump's been the best president in my lifetime. Nah, he's been the best president in my lifetime. Now, he's been the best president in my lifetime and probably the best president the United States has ever had. So, assuming that Joe Biden is inaugurated in a couple of weeks, what do you think that means for the country?

I think we'll be in civil war. Lock and load, baby. We've fought for this country many times. It ain't going to stop now. Would you actually commit violence against fellow citizens yourself? Damn right I would. And at that point, he just walked off. And, you know, if one person had said this, I might dismiss it as a fringe idea. But in just a few days of reporting here in Georgia, three different people, two Republicans and one Democrat, have independently

expressed to me that they either are concerned about violence or even willing to engage in it. And I think this is also reflective of the broader skepticism I mentioned among Republicans, the lack of faith in the election system that's been seeded and promoted by President Trump. All right. Well, we're going to leave it there for now. Sarah, thank you so much for your reporting. And it's always a delight to talk to you. Thank you so much. Good to talk to you all, too. All right. We're going to take a break now. And when we come back, we're going to talk about the process of certifying the Electoral College results. This message comes from NPR sponsor Hint, fruit infused water with no calories or sweeteners.

Hint water comes in over 25 flavors. The watermelon water actually tastes like watermelon. The blackberry water tastes like blackberries. Hint is water with a touch of true fruit flavor. You can get Hint water at stores, or you can have it delivered directly to your door. When you buy two cases, you'll get a third case free and free shipping. Visit drinkhint.com and use promo code NPR at checkout. LifeKit is rethinking New Year's resolutions. All this January, we're thinking

about both really big and really small changes. If you're wanting to change up your life and start fresh, we've got you covered. If you're looking to just make your home a little nicer, we got you there too. Listen now to the Life Kit podcast from NPR. And we're back not only with Claudia Grisales, but also with the one, the only Ron Elving. Ron, hello. Hey, good to be with you guys. Happy New Year. Guys, tomorrow Congress is set to certify the electoral college results. I've got to say I've been in the news for years now. I don't recall this much attention ever being put on this before, but it's been a long time since standard affairs stopped being standard. Norms are out the window. So let's talk about the process tomorrow. First things

first, Claudia, what is the schedule of events? How does this go down? This all kicks off at 1 p.m. Wednesday in the House chamber. So we'll see Senate members head over to that chamber to commence. Vice President Mike Pence will take over as presiding officer. And alphabetically, they'll go state by state over their certificate of electoral results. And Trump and his Republican allies have targeted several states where members say they'll object. So a House member will need a partner in a Senate member for an objection to be heard. And they're focused on six states. That's Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. And so once an objection has a House and Senate member objecting jointly on that state, the members

will depart to their respective chambers. They'll hear those objections. They'll debate for up to two hours. It could be less. But all in all, it's a very long day that will stretch perhaps late into Wednesday and into Thursday. And it's really hard to say how long this could go on. But we're all going to

wait and see. Absolutely. It has been as little as 23 minutes, but we did have a hiccup in 2005. There was an objection from a House member and one senator. They did go to their chambers and have a debate, come back, very lopsided votes to disallow those objections and allow the electors from Ohio to vote. So that didn't amount to much, but that was a little bit of a hiccup. They tried in 2000 around the state of Florida. You may remember all of that incredible dispute over Florida back in 2000. And when that got to this point and they were approving the electors, there was some talk about objecting to Florida,

but there was no senator who was willing to join the House members. So it didn't come to anything at that point. And really, all of this stuff is pretty much 19th century. All of it comes from a law back in 1887, and we don't have to go into where that came from, but it was trying to solve a big mess that basically came out of the end of the Civil War. And a note that, as Claudia said, this could be a very long process. So we will be putting our podcast out later than usual tomorrow because the process could go on for a while. But getting back to you, Claudia, tell us more about these senators, House members, these people who might object. Who are they and what does it tell us about what's going on?

These are very close allies to President Trump. We expect more than 100 House Republicans to sign off on these objections. And now more than a dozen Senate Republicans have said they're planning to object as well, meaning they're planning to join these House members in their objections of these various states results. We are noting that some of these folks are candidates or are hoping to be candidates for the 2024 elections. This could be a moment for them to make their mark on this stage. Now, this is going to be a much bigger stage than usual, and they're kind of fighting it out on who is going to be the biggest Trump ally. And we see members such as Josh Hawley of Missouri. This was the first Senate Republican who said he would sign on to this. And then we saw the

dominoes fall after that. And that includes Ted Cruz of Texas. This is another 2024 hopeful. And so we may see a lot of that come Wednesday in terms of these folks who have these presidential aspirations. This is not going to change the results of the election. But on the other hand, this is a group of lawmakers attempting to subvert the results of a fair election. I mean, give us some perspective here. How big of a deal is this? How worrisome is this to you? This is dangerous territory.

It's a dangerous idea, but it's not going to go anywhere. And we can't emphasize this too strongly. The president has been urging Mike Pence to exercise some power. The president imagines that he has to cast out the reports from some of the states. There are no competing slates of electors. There are only the agreed upon electors. All of it's been certified by the governors of all 50 states in both parties. It's been up to courts all over the country. And Trump judges, as well as other judges, have basically kicked it away. So this is just an attempt really to endear a number of Republican senators to the strongest supporters of President

Trump and show their loyalty to the president in the final days of his time in office. All right, well, let's leave it there for now. A reminder that we will be back late tomorrow after watching all of this closely to wrap up the biggest moments from the certification process. Until then, I'm Danielle Kurtzleben.

I cover politics. I'm Claudia Grisales. I cover Congress. And I'm Ron Helving, editor-correspondent. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.