The NPR Politics Podcast - GOP Targets Immigration Boss, Will Hold Hearings In Arizona

Episode Date: February 14, 2023

Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy will lead fellow Republican lawmakers on a trip to Arizona this week, part of an effort by his caucus to boost the profile of border security as an issue through messaging that spuriously links migrants to drugs and crime.This episode: political reporter Deepa Shivaram, congressional correspondent Claudia Grisales, and immigration correspondent Joel Rose.This episode was produced by Elena Moore and Casey Morell. It was edited by Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Research and fact-checking by Devin Speak.Unlock access to this and other bonus content by supporting The NPR Politics Podcast+. Sign up via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hi, this is Kenny in Jamestown, New York. I'm at the Hockey Jamboree at Northwest Arena, where we're hosting 21 teams, and I'm running the clock for the 9 and unders. It's my job to hit the buzzer every minute and a half to announce the player shift. This podcast was recorded at... 103 p.m. Eastern Standard Time on February 14th, 2023. Things may have changed, but I'll still be proud of my son, who scored his first competitive goal. Here's the show.

Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Pee-wee hockey. Let me tell you, running those clocks is intense pressure when your kid is out there. I am not good at it. So bravo to him. Yeah, big day. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Deepa Shivaram. I cover politics. I'm Claudia Grisaram. I cover politics. I'm Claudia Gidizalis. I cover Congress. And Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy will lead a trip to the U.S. southern border

later this week with a few members of his party. And this trip is coming as the party targets Secretary of Homeland Security Alejandro Mayorkas, who oversees customs and border protection. Joel Rose is with us. Hey, Joel. Hi, Deepa. Hey, you cover immigration for NPR. So I'm going to start with you here. What is the situation like at the border right now? And has anything changed significantly in the new year so far? It has. The number of migrants apprehended at the border was down sharply in January,

illegal crossings down 40% from December, to their lowest point since February of 2021, which was President Biden's first full month in office. And that is a remarkable shift after years of migrant apprehensions at record levels. And the administration says this is evidence that its new enforcement measures are working. These measures include more rapid expulsions of migrants, as well as a new legal pathway for some migrants from Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, and Venezuela. The number of migrants from those countries who, Nicaragua, and Venezuela. The number of migrants from those countries who are crossing illegally is down very sharply. The administration

says more than 90%. Now, we will see if that holds up. January is traditionally a slower month at the border, but this is a dramatic change from where we were, you know, just a month ago. Yeah, that does sound like a dramatic change and definitely something the Biden administration is going to be touting as a success. And Claudia, this is Kevin McCarthy's first trip to the border since becoming speaker. I imagine he has some more critical things to say on this. Where on the U.S.-Mexico border is he headed? What's on his agenda this week? Right. They're going to be going to the Tucson sector. He is traveling with four Republican freshmen. This is their opportunity to showcase what they're hoping is a new push for border security legislation. They'll show this new generation of lawmakers who could be taking the baton, if you will, on matters related to the border. And a quick follow-up. Is it significant at all that McCarthy is headed to Arizona instead of Texas or a different place along the border? Yes, I'm glad

you asked that. I talked to a senior Republican aide about this, and he has been to Texas previously, at least on two of his last trips before he was Speaker, when he was Republican leader for the House. And what I'm told is that McCarthy's office wants to highlight how big this issue is in terms of what they see as this border crisis, that it stretches 2,000 miles. It's not just the Texas border with Mexico. It's also in Arizona. And the timing works out as well as this comes a week ahead

of the House Judiciary Committee, which is led by Jim Jordan. They will hold a field hearing near that area in that Arizona area in Yuma next week. Does that mean that lawmakers are flying there for this hearing? Is that logistically how this works? That is the expectation. We are seeing a shift here when it comes to House Republicans holding field hearings all over the country. And several committees have jurisdiction over the border area. So House Judiciary is just one of several committees that's holding a hearing in the Yuma, Arizona area next week. We know that all 14 Republicans, I've been told, are planning to attend. We're still hoping to hear about more

Democrats who will be attending, who will be there. But this is kind of the political calculation for Republicans who are trying to get Democrats down there. That's what some of them say to try and address this issue. And you have to wonder if they want to try and help point blame at Democrats if they can get them to the border. Joel, I want to get into the politics of this a little bit because Jim Jordan and some other Republicans have been pointing fingers at DHA Secretary Mayorkas for months now, right? They've been alleging that the administration is inviting migrants to cross the border illegally and that the border is open, though to be clear, the border isn't open and seeking asylum is legal. But they're talking about trying to impeach

Mayorkas. How likely is that to actually happen? Thank you for those caveats. Yes. Important to keep those in mind. Yeah, there is a strong push, especially from immigration hardliners in the GOP to impeach Mayorkas, which is an extraordinary step. But these Republicans say it's warranted because of what they call the administration's failure to secure the border. And there's this argument you're hearing a lot that this is deliberate, that the secretary is intentionally not enforcing immigration laws on the books. Mayorkas rejects that allegation. He says these are just basic policy differences, not impeachable offenses.

Mayorkas held a roundtable with reporters a few weeks ago and made it clear that he's not going to resign. He's going to stay in the job. He's going to keep doing the work. And, you know, clearly DHS is digging in for a fight. They've retained an outside law firm to advise them. This is going to be a setting up for a real battle. Yeah. And to be clear, like cabinet members are not typically going through impeachment proceedings, right? No, we haven't seen anything like this in well over 100 years. And as far as I know, no cabinet member has ever been removed through impeachment. Yeah. And this administration has faced a lot of criticism because the president hasn't really been spending a lot of time, many visits to the border. He made a brief visit in January in Texas. But other than that, we haven't

really seen President Biden visit the border. His DHS secretary is now theoretically facing a possible impeachment. What is the president kind of saying in all this? Have we heard from the White House or the administration? Well, I think in order to get a sense of how they're going to respond to some of these expected attacks during, for example, McCarthy's visit to the border this week, to the judiciary hearing next week. We can look back at the previous House Republican investigative hearings and how the White House has responded. They have issued statements, rebuttals before the hearings, sometimes during and after. And so I think this all ties into how they'll address any kind of claims that Republicans make during these visits to the border. And this also ties into this effort to hold impeachment hearings against Mayorkas. And so it sounds like they are preparing, as Joel mentioned, DHS is preparing on their end.

The White House is preparing on their end. They have their offensive game, their defensive games down on how they're going to respond if it gets that far. And I'm hearing in terms of timing that this impeachment argument for Mayorkas, it could play out in the House as early as this year. There's a lot of Republicans to get in line in terms of getting on the same page to move forward with this. There are some that have raised concerns about even looking at this impeachment first. But the timing on this is what I'm hearing from both sides. It could come as early as this year. All right. Time for a quick break and we'll be back in a moment. And we're back. I'm curious what the other side of the aisle is saying about all of this.

Claudia, how have Democrats been responding to the criticism of Secretary Mayorkas and of the administration? I think we're hearing what Joel heard from the secretary himself when he talks about these are policy disagreements. What are impeachments directed towards? It's towards certain behaviors that Democrats argue are not exemplified here. That have not happened. This is just Republicans and Democrats disagreeing about how they're approaching the border and immigration issues. And so they're really getting geared up to be on the defense, if you will, to battle Republicans on this effort. But again, it's unclear the timing on when this happens, but they are working to be ready when and if it does come up. Yeah. And Democrats that I spoke to echoed that argument as well, that these are just

normal policy disagreements that are being dressed up as impeachable offenses. I talked to Cecilia Munoz, who was a domestic policy advisor during the Obama administration and a member of the Biden transition team. This is about politics. What's happening is that we have a challenging situation at the U.S.-Mexico border, and the Republicans want to play politics with it. I think we'll hear versions of that argument from a lot of folks on the left if this impeachment inquiry really moves forward. You know, and that reminds me, one other thing I've heard from Democrats is that Republicans have really filled up their plates in terms of what they want to tackle when it comes to investigating Democrats,

investigating issues that Democrats have been linked to or legislation. And so they see that in their favor in terms of this long to-do list that House Republicans have on their various committees and investigations, that an impeachment of Secretary Mayorkas is going to take up a lot of oxygen. They're going to need a lot of time. They're going to have to work to get all of their members with that very tight margin of only four of a majority in that chamber to get on the same page when it comes to Mayorkas. So they feel like right now they're buying time before this could come up. Yeah, geez. Welcome to a divided Congress. And in the meantime, you know, while all of this oxygen is happening and getting sucked out with impeachment potential, in the meantime, Republicans, you know, do they have immigration reform legislation lined up?

Is there any movement on that, Claudia, in Congress? Well, movement, probably not. As you mentioned, divided Congress, that's where we are. There's not a lot of hope there for a lot of bills to move through that are partisan-led. So if Republicans are. There's not a lot of hope there for a lot of bills to move through that are partisan led. So if Republicans are going to put up a border security bill on their own, they're not going to get much help to move it outside to Biden's desk without Democrats. At the same time, they do see windows for compromise. What if there is a bipartisan path to negotiate with Democrats and some of these other issues that Republicans are pushing for, whether perhaps it has to do with spending or what have you? Sometimes we see both sides come together when there's a larger deal to be had.

So that's really iffy if they can get through some sort of reform bill. But they're certainly using these visits to the border to try and raise the awareness of the need for border security legislation. Joel, there's another topic that Republicans have started to bring up in their border crisis rhetoric, and that is fentanyl smuggling. Here's Kevin McCarthy on Fox News earlier this month. I am tired of having America wide open because you know what else you get with a wide open border? More people dying from fentanyl. More fact checking needed here, though. Joel, talk me through some of that. Yeah, we have been hearing a lot about fentanyl and the border. Republicans trying to link the situation with the rising number of deaths from the synthetic opioid. And there are a couple of things to note here. Fentanyl overdose deaths have been rising for years, well before President Biden took office. Okay, that's one.

Also, it's true that a huge amount of fentanyl is smuggled into the U.S. from Mexico, but the vast majority of fentanyl seizures happen at official ports of entry, where the drug is often smuggled by U.S. citizens or legal residents in cars or in tractor trailers. There is a smaller fraction that's seized by border patrol agents, usually at checkpoints near the border. Virtually none of this fentanyl is seized from migrants who are turning themselves in in an effort to seek asylum, which, as you noted before, is legal. There is an argument that some Republicans are making that large groups of migrants arriving all at once are distracting border patrol agents and thereby creating a window for more fentanyl smuggling between the ports. But they have not produced any evidence to support that theory. And the data, experts say, points overwhelmingly

to the ports of entry as the main way that fentanyl and other drugs are smuggled in. You would not necessarily get that impression, though, from a lot of the hearings that we've had so far. Yeah, this is definitely not a new move or strategy or rhetoric necessarily get that impression, though, from a lot of the hearings that we've had so far. Yeah, this is definitely not a new move or strategy or rhetoric, for that matter, from Republicans who have often kind of used this idea of migrants are bringing in crime, they're bringing in drugs, obviously pointing to no evidence of that and using a really racial kind of strategy here and making very racist claims. Claudia, I mean, this is something we've been hearing since years now, right? I mean, going back to former President Trump's announcement speech when he decided to run for president, right? Right. Some would argue that this is one of the original culture wars. And we're continuing to see some campaign with this, as Trump did before his presidency, as you mentioned.

We're seeing some continuing this effort. We saw it during the midterms. I was on the trail for some candidates, some Republican candidates who really hit this point about fentanyl and the problems there. And as Joel's mentioning, how much we've been hearing about it. And it has been a selling point that some Republicans have been trying to use to draw Republicans in. And one described it to me as a fear tactic to draw in voters to consider that this is happening. But in terms of how it's getting here, there's a much larger story, as Joel mentioned. Yeah, this is definitely something

we're going to be paying more attention to. And Joel, we'll have to have you back again. Thank you so much for joining us with your reporting. Happy to do it. I'm Deepa Shivaram. I cover politics. I'm Claudia DeSantis. I cover Congress. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.