The NPR Politics Podcast - Harris, Trump Spar In First Debate

Episode Date: September 11, 2024

Vice President Kamala Harris went on the offensive against former President Donald Trump in the ABC News Presidential Debate, putting Trump on the defensive for most of the night.This episode: White House correspondents Asma Khalid & Deepa Shivaram, and political correspondents Susan Davis & Danielle Kurtzleben.The podcast is produced by Jeongyoon Han, Casey Morell and Kelli Wessinger. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi.Listen to every episode of the NPR Politics Podcast sponsor-free, unlock access to bonus episodes with more from the NPR Politics team, and support public media when you sign up for The NPR Politics Podcast+ at plus.npr.org/politics.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Autograph Collection Hotels, with over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of hotel brands. Find the unforgettable at AutographCollection.com. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. I'm Deepa Shivaram. I also cover the White House. I'm Danielle Kurtzleben. I cover the presidential campaign. And I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics.

Oh, look at that, an all-ladies pod. Let's go. And we are coming to you at 11.17 p.m. Eastern Time on Tuesday, September 10th. We are coming to you quite late on this Tuesday night because the first presidential debate between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump has just wrapped up. It was a lively conversation. Here's a little bit from that ABC News presidential debate. She doesn't have a plan. She copied Biden's plan. And it's like four sentences, like run, spot, run. Donald Trump was fired by 81 million people. So let's be clear about that. And clearly he is having a very difficult time processing that.

So let's dive in with the analysis. This was not just the first debate between Harris and Trump. It was, in fact, the first time that they had met and spoken in person. I want to start with just broad impressions from all of you. Deepa, why don't you kick it off? I mean, yeah, first time they've ever met. And for her to walk on stage, I thought it was really interesting that she went more over to Donald Trump's side, shook his hand, said Kamala Harris had that moment. She kind of, you know, had a slower start, I would say. And I think this sometimes happens with Kamala Harris and in

debates or big moments, she kind of walks over her own words a little bit, but she really solidified, you know, especially talking about abortion and having these very solid hits against Trump. She did a couple lines where she was trying to bait him, clearly talking about people leaving his rallies because they lost interest, about how foreign leaders are laughing at Donald Trump. A lot of points where, you know, you could tell she was really trying to chide him. But I thought one thing that was really interesting to me, generally speaking, was that she really landed this point, which is she said, I'm not Joe Biden and I'm not Donald Trump. It's really the thesis, I think, of her very short presidential campaign, which is to sort of be this change candidate while also trying to hold on to

parts of Joe Biden's presidency and separate herself in other ways. And what about you, Danielle? Because this was the first time Donald Trump was also facing off against Harris. This is a new candidate for him. And it seemed like at moments he sort of was struggling to see that he was running against a new candidate in this race. Absolutely. He talked about Joe Biden a lot. I don't believe he said Kamala or Kamala Harris at any point during that debate. I mean, he started off the debate relatively for Donald Trump, relatively calm, relatively seeming kind of centered. But because she brought up the crowd size at his rallies at that ABC News presidential debate tonight, she got under his skin. And I'm going to actually do something really unusual.

And I'm going to invite you to attend one of Donald Trump's rallies because it's a really interesting thing to watch. You will see during the course of his rallies, he talks about fictional characters like Hannibal Lecter. He will talk about windmills cause cancer. And what you will also notice is that people start leaving his rallies early out of exhaustion and boredom. And I will tell you, the one thing you will not hear him talk about is you. You will not hear him talk about your needs, your dreams, and your desires. And I'll tell you, I believe you deserve a president who actually puts you first. And I pledge to you that I will. Vice President Harris, thank you.

President Trump, on that point, I want to get your response. Well, I would like to respond. Let me just ask, though, why did you try to kill that bill and successfully so? That would have put thousands of additional agents and officers on the border. First, let me respond to the rallies. She said people start leaving. People don't go to her rallies. There's no reason to go.

He had multiple flat out rants during this debate. These two at various times did not even seem to be on the same game board. He just would get ruffled and start talking about whatever he felt like. One thing that she subtly seemed to be doing was constantly using the word you, really trying to talk to the voters at home. I am going to be president for you. I am going to help you in this way or that way. And this is a thing she has been trying to do is say, I'm running for you. Donald Trump is all about himself. And she really seemed, I think, to be trying to do that tonight as well. I would agree with Danielle on that. It seemed pretty clear that Kamala Harris was much more focused on messages of persuasion,

especially when you step back and look at this race that's very tight, that there's still a big chunk of the country that's making up their mind about her. And it was striking to me throughout the evening how she would sort of drop these statements that seemed to me to indicate to the audience, like, look, I'm a moderate, I'm a centrist, I'm not as liberal as they want you to think I am. She noted she was a gun owner. She distanced herself from some of the more liberal policy positions she took when she ran for president in 2020. She said she wouldn't try to ban fracking in a state like Pennsylvania where the debate was held. She praised the late, great John McCain. I mean, there was a lot of tells in there that she was sending a message to the broader audience.

In contrast, you know, Trump has run a very base campaign. We've said that before. It was very clear. But tonight, I thought it was like putting a very fine point on it in how angry his message was about how negative the tone about America was. And also, frankly, throughout the night, his message about immigrants here, both legally and illegally. There were several moments where he spoke in such stark terms throughout the ABC News presidential debate that America was going to end if Kamala Harris was elected president. And to me, it was a very effective base message. It's proven to be a very effective base message, but I'm not sure that it is a persuasive message to who's left undecided in this election. You know, on that note, in terms

of persuasion, we didn't really hear a whole lot on policy. Certainly there were questions asked and answered about the economy, foreign policy, abortion, immigration. But this entire debate night felt like it was much more about vibes and how both candidates presented themselves. And to that point, Danielle, I am curious if you felt like this debate was in some ways fundamentally different than the version of Donald Trump who this country saw and how he presented himself earlier this summer when he was debating Joe Biden. Yes and no. I think there's a difference between style and substance here, right? Because in that Joe Biden debate, I think in a lot

of our memories, Donald Trump kind of fades from view because what so many people remember from that debate was Joe Biden flaming out on national TV, right? And Donald Trump, he said a lot of lies that night. He said things that in any other year, in any other debate, would be considered eye-popping at the very least. But it's easy to forget them. Now, tonight, it was all about contrast. Donald Trump, who is himself an older man, was not on stage next to another older man. Donald Trump was on stage next to this literal former prosecutor who was keeping herself together and clearly trying to be the calm person in the room. That contrast was very notable. Now, in terms of substance, I cover Donald Trump a lot. I don't think I heard anything tonight, or at least very little tonight, that I have not heard at a Trump rally before.

He stuck to his talking points. He stuck to them hard. To me, the real question is like something that Deepa brought up earlier, is how much did he get thrown off of that message by Kamala Harris's attacks? For example, he likes to stick to immigration. Many times in debates, you ask him about any topic, he'll turn to immigration. He wants to talk about crimes committed by undocumented immigrants, and he wants to talk about it a lot. But because she brought up his crowd size tonight, during the conversation about immigration, he got sidetracked. He got derailed, and he started talking about that and came off, I think, as angry and defensive. I would push back on the point earlier, though, on it being about the vibes, because I think, yes, vibes are there.

But there was a decent chunk of policy that was asked about and I think maybe not fully fleshed out answered because it's a debate and there's only so much time. But there was a point where Kamala Harris was throwing out the word plan so much of like, I have a plan for this. I have a plan for this that I turned to Domenico, our colleague, and I was like, I'm sorry, is Elizabeth Warren in the room? Like this was her line. That was Elizabeth Warren's line when she ran for president in 2020. You know, I have a plan for that. And Kamala Harris made a point over and over and over again to say, this is my plan. What's yours, Donald Trump? And so there was, to Danielle's point about setting up that contrast. I think that's been a very critical point that, you know, members of the media have been making, that conservatives have certainly been making, that Kamala Harris doesn't have a lot of policy to offer. And this debate really kind of put her on a different direction to say, no, I really do, because look at the other option. It's nothing. He also dodged various questions on policy. For example, he talks a lot about a mass deportation.

He was asked, OK, how would you deport 11 million or more undocumented immigrants? He didn't have an answer for that. And that happened on multiple topics. All right. Let's take a quick break and we'll be back in a moment. Support for this podcast and the following message come from the NPR Wine Club, which has generated over $1.75 million to support NPR programming. Whether buying a few bottles or joining the club, you can learn more at nprwineclub.org slash podcast. Must be 21 or older to purchase. Support for NPR and the following message come from Carnegie Corporation of New York, working to reduce political polarization through philanthropic support for education,

democracy, and peace. More information at carnegie.org. And we're back. And I want to speak just briefly about the moderators of the ABC News presidential debate, Lindsay Davis and David Muir. They, at moments, I would say sprinkled in little fact-check nuggets. There would be a comment that Donald Trump made, for example, whether it was about the idea that people could have abortions in the ninth month and in Donald Trump's words, commit a, quote, execution of the baby. He talked about immigrants eating people's pets, also an allegation that one of the anchors refuted. And this was distinctly different than what we saw in the prior debate between Joe Biden and Donald Trump that was held on CNN. I'm curious what you made of this live fact-checking suit and how do you think the candidates handled it? You know, it's such an unwinnable position

because this is an art, not a science, and every network and every anchor gets to do it their own way. And there, as you noted, moments tonight where I think Donald Trump was the only candidate fact-checked. I do not check me if I can fact-check me on this, but I don't believe that Kamala Harris was ever fact-checked. But look, Donald Trump often says things that are so extreme and often laden in conspiracy that it would require someone to fact-check. He also continues to deny that he lost the 2020 election fair and square. I believe that was another moment where Mears stepped in and said, you know, this has all been upheld in the courts. To no surprise, I think there is a tremendous amount of pushback on ABC and on these moderators already coming from members of the Trump family, from Trump supporters, from conservative

commentators, suggesting that, you know, big media has the fix in for Kamala Harris. Not a surprise message. I think that what that does seem to tell you is in many ways a lot of Donald Trump's allies don't believe he performed it wasn't that much different from the first presidential debate. But because Joe Biden collapsed so spectacularly on that stage, all the focus was on him. And this was a reminder that, you know, Donald Trump says and does a lot of very outrageous things. And it was more on display tonight than it was in the first debate because Kamala Harris could balance that out more as his opponent. I also want to ask you ladies about the style here tonight. You know, the former president has historically been triggered by women in power, particularly women of color. And one thing that stood out to me is that throughout the night, we had this split screen, but you'd see Kamala Harris turn towards him if she was speaking about him or turn towards him

when he was speaking. I don't believe I ever caught a moment of Donald Trump actually making eye contact with her, which was rather remarkable to me just as, you know, as somebody who sort of is obsessed with like making eye contact with people. I'm like staring into both your eyes right now. That the idea that they didn't really engage with one another. And I'm curious what you all made of the lack of interaction between them. I mean, I think one element to me that I noticed is that Kamala Harris definitely was turning, looking at Donald Trump, as you said. Even when she was speaking and it wasn't his turn to speak and they weren't talking to each other, she would still look over at him.

I don't know if that was partly because, you know, this campaign is one that tends to cut a lot of these videos, put it out on their social media. So it could have been, you know, some element there. But I also think, you know, Kamala Harris, despite the fact that she hasn't been on a debate stage in four years, right, the last time she did a debate was against Mike Pence in Salt Lake City when she was Joe Biden's, you know, VP running mate. But she is a seasoned debater. She's someone who knows how to use her facial expressions in debates like this. She's often known for that, even not on the debate stage in those Senate hearings. That's really where she picked up traction in Washington. And I think she knows that she has to, like, give space for Donald Trump to say the things that he's

going to say. And her reactions count just as much as what she would say in response anyway, if that makes sense. You know, you saw her facial expressions, raising eyebrows and putting a hand on her chin at some point. And so I think there were a lot of interactions there that weren't necessarily like things that came out of her mouth, but just were part of vibes, for lack of a better word, of their interactions on the stage. Unfortunately, on this type of thing, we're stuck in the position of trying to know what's going on in Donald Trump's head, which, of course, we don't. But if you look at this debate and you look back to when he debated Hillary Clinton in 2016, he called her a nasty woman. He kind of loomed behind her, which was a function of the setup of that debate. That was not possible.

We didn't hear that language tonight from George Harris. No, we absolutely did not. Trump, see, I do wonder if there was some sort of a correction on his part. He did call her comments stupid at one point. Yeah, he did at one point tell her to please be quiet or something to that degree. Yeah, so it wasn't totally absent. Those were genuinely very memorable moments from the 2016 debates. It's fair to say. I mean, memorable and t-shirted and tote bagged moments from those debates. And you do have to wonder if he was really trying not to make any of those happen tonight.

It was almost like he was trying really hard because he didn't, in addition to not really looking at her, he didn't say her name. Yeah. He only ever said she or her. And I thought it was interesting because she had gone over there and said Kamala Harris and introduced herself at the very beginning. He still never said her name, which stood out to me because I've done reporting on this. He has often used her name against her, right? Called her Kamala, Kamala Mala and like made fun of her name before and often said that at rallies. And this goes back to, you know, 2019, 2020. So that's not new for him. But then tonight, it was like none of that, almost the entire opposite end of the spectrum. So I want to ask you about what you think both candidates achieved or didn't achieve from tonight. I mean, coming into this debate, I'd heard a lot about the fact that Harris needed to somehow differentiate herself from Joe Biden while she remains the sitting vice president and needed to somehow clarify why her policy positions on some key issues had shifted over the years.

I think there was also an expectation that Trump was going to try to tether her to the Biden administration, particularly on policies where Republicans seem to have some strengths like immigration and the economy. So did they accomplish that? The thing that's so fascinating about this is it's so hard to know because there's nothing to compare this to. And I think that she is unknown at a point in a race that a candidate has never really been this unknown in modern presidential elections. And so there is just a significant element of this electorate that is going to vote that doesn't have particularly strong feelings about her. Donald Trump promotes very strong feelings one way or the other. And it was clear tonight to me that she was trying to speak

to those voters and both try to make the case that she has a plan, but also prosecute the case against Donald Trump and why this candidate is a more dangerous option. I think that Trump did land a couple good lines against Kamala Harris and lines that his broader campaign would like him to focus on more than the personal attacks or conspiracy theories. And it was more in his closing message from the ABC News presidential debate. So she just started by saying she's going to do this, she's going to do that, she's going to do all these wonderful things. Why hasn't she done it? She's been there for three and a half years. They've had three and a half years to fix the

border. They've had three and a half years to create jobs and all the things we talked about. Why hasn't she done it? And that is a message that I think Republicans, certainly on Capitol Hill and other places, want them to focus on is run against the Biden record and blame her for it. And he did do that. He just with Trump, it always gets convoluted in so many other messages that it's hard to differentiate. I mean, the two things we're all going to look for, right? What do the polls look like two to three weeks from now? Because that's usually about how long it takes to shake out if there's been any movement based off an event.

And do they agree to do another debate? The Harris campaign has already said they want to do another one. It's unclear so far if Donald Trump does. But if Trump feels like he did not do well tonight, which seems coming out of the evening, what sort of the broader conventional wisdom is, he has a lot of interest in going back

and doing that again in the close of the campaign to try to have a better night facing off against her if this was ultimately a good night for her in the eyes of voters. Well, if polling shows that the debate didn't change the course of this election, it is potentially possible that a certain endorsement from a one Taylor Swift might. That happened tonight shortly after the debate. Taylor Swift posted on Instagram and said that she was supporting Kamala Harris and Tim Walz. We never know how much a celebrity endorsement affects any race, of course. But this is not just any celebrity. This is Taylor Swift with her armies of fans. And we do know that younger

voters have lower turnout rates than older voters. So to whatever degree Taylor Swift endorsing Kamala Harris gets people interested in voting, that could, to even small degrees, change turnout. And we know that small degrees are what matters in a really close race. All right. Well, let's leave it there for today. We will be back in your feeds tomorrow afternoon. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. I'm Deepa Shivaram. I also cover the White House. I'm Danielle Kurtzleben. I cover the presidential campaign. And I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics.

And thank you all, as always, for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.