The NPR Politics Podcast - How The Shutdown Is Affecting Federal Workers And Services

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

The federal government shutdown is in its seventh day, with negotiations on Capitol Hill over reopening the government at a stalemate. We discuss how the shutdown is affecting federal workers and the services they keep running, as well as warnings by the White House that they will lay off workers as a result of the shutdown.This episode: senior White House correspondent Tamara Keith, labor and workplace correspondent Andrea Hsu, and political reporter Stephen Fowler.This podcast was produced by Casey Morell & Bria Suggs, and edited by Rachel Baye. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi.Listen to every episode of the NPR Politics Podcast sponsor-free, unlock access to bonus episodes with more from the NPR Politics team, and support public media when you sign up for The NPR Politics Podcast+ at plus.npr.org/politics.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for NPR and the following message comes from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. RWJF is a national philanthropy, working toward a future where health is no longer a privilege but a right. Learn more at RWJF.org. Hey, everybody, Tamara Keith here. Before we start today's show, I wanted to remind you of something fun. The NPR Politics Podcast turns 10 years old this fall. And to celebrate, we are doing a live show later this month. That's right, a live show. We are back with a live audience and you can be part of it. You can join me and some of the other voices you hear every day in person here in Washington on Thursday, October 30th.

You can find information on tickets and more at npr.org slash politics live show. Again, npr.org slash politics live show. All right, here's today's show. Hi, this is Steve. Coming to you from the wilds of Taney County, Missouri, part of the greater Branson Rural-Politan area, where I'm celebrating the end of our long drought by finally burning my ever-expanding brush pile. This podcast was recorded on Tuesday, October 7th at 12.6 p.m. Things may have changed by the time you hear this, but I'll still be out here, Chorin. Enjoy the show.

That is fabulous. I was like, what is that sound? It's the best kind of timestamp where we have to guess what the sound is. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics podcast. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Stephen Fowler. I cover politics. And we're joined by NPR Labor and Workplace correspondent, Andrea Shue. Hi, Andrea. Hey, thanks for having me back. Yeah, we are one week into the government shutdown, and there is no clear end in sight. So today on the show, we'll talk about how this shutdown is affecting federal workers, as well as everyone else who relies on. on the federal government. Stephen, it can be hard to keep track of who's working and who's

working without pay and who's not working at all right now. Which agencies are operating at full force? Which ones aren't? Give us the landscape. Well, a government shutdown is a bit of a misnomer. It is not like everything in the government grinds to a halt. There are large pockets of the federal government still operating. You have some people that are operating and working and doing their services without pay. You have some people that are working with pay because their funding source comes from somewhere else other than Congress trying to get enough votes for the bills. The VA, for example, only 3% of their workforce is being furloughed. They've said that the shutdown doesn't affect veteran health care, things like that. Then you have other agencies like

the Commerce Department, where they say 80% of their staffs being furloughed. So it's a bit of a mix that's a bit of a grab bag. And each agency has their own contingency plans that they put forth where they say these are the people that are essential to keep working. And these are the people that we need to stay home and not do anything. Another one just to toss in there is Homeland Security, well-staffed. And also active duty military who continue to work, though they are not getting paid either. Andrea, do you have the big numbers? Like what share of the federal workforce is furloughed or what shares working without pay? Yeah, well, before the shutdown started, the Congressional Budget Office put out this estimate of 750,000 civilians would be furloughed.

That was based on the contingency plans that Stephen just mentioned. And that's roughly a third of the civilian workforce. I will say, you know, I had federal workers tell me this shutdown has been like no other. And some of them didn't know until Wednesday morning, October 1st, whether they were going to be furloughed or whether they were going to be asked to work without pay. I mean, a lot of these decisions, it seems like, came down to the last minute. There are some agencies, as Stephen mentioned, that we knew we're going to largely operate through the shutdown, like the Social Security Administration, where about 45,000 out of 50-odd thousand people are working without pay to make sure, you know, retirees are still

going to get their checks. Speaking of checks, we're talking about people working without pay, but people don't get paid every single day. There are paychecks that come on a a regular interval. And when that pay is actually missed is likely to be one of these big pressure points where members of Congress really feel it and where federal workers really feel it. So when does that rubber hit the road? Yeah. So most federal employees are still expecting to get a paycheck next week. Now that will be for the last pay period, which ended October 3rd. So they will get paid through September 30th. They'll miss a few days pay in that paycheck. It will be two weeks after that, where they will not get a paycheck, even those who have been working, they will not

get a paycheck for the work they have been doing. Members of the militaries are expecting to miss their first paycheck October 15th, so even sooner than that. And in terms of services, what do we know is being affected by this shutdown? What might people feel? Well, one of the most well-known examples from previous shutdowns have been the Federal Aviation Administration and air traffic controllers. You need air traffic controllers to have planes in the sky. And in the past few days, we've had reports of staffing issues, including the Hollywood Burbank Airport, which had the air traffic control tower unmanned for several hours because of people calling out sick and they're not being enough people to staff it. So that's one example. You also have the TSA that does

the security for the airports. As another example that people interact with, where you would see the service degrade over time, the longer that the shutdown happens? You know, at the VA, for example, as Stephen mentioned, medical centers are open, hospitals are open. The crisis hotlines are still operating, but some regional benefits offices are closed, career counseling, public affairs. These are the kinds of things that are not operating right now during the shutdown. All right, well, we're going to take a quick break, and we will have more in a moment. Sea levels around the world have been rising for years. And now, they're starting to rise faster.

Here's a thing, though, it really depends on your individual location. Like, Seattle will see less sea level rise than Annapolis, which will see less sea level rise than New Orleans. On Shortwave, NPR's science podcast, we get into why. Listen in the NPR app, or wherever you get your podcasts. Support for NPR, and the following message comes from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. RWJF is a national philanthropy. working toward a future where health is no longer a privilege but a right.

Learn more at our wjjf.org. And we're back, and we've been talking about some of the ways the federal government shutdown is affecting things inside and outside of Washington. Even before the shutdown started, the White House was warning there would be layoffs, mass firings, not just the usual furloughs. Andrea, now that we're a week in, are there signs of that happening? Not yet. You know, the president on Sunday night actually said these layoffs were underway, but so far we have not heard of any layoffs since October 1 that are related to the shutdown. The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office did announce some layoffs, but that agency is funded by fees, not by annual congressional appropriations. And so we really don't know when these layoffs might be coming. Labor unions representing federal employees have sued saying these threats of law. layoffs are an abuse of power. But to date, we just have not seen any announcements of mass layoffs so

far. Yeah. And the White House actually walked back to the president saying he was just referring to the furloughs. It's fascinating. Stephen, you've been following this too. Yeah, there isn't really any evidence that layoffs are going to come. President Trump cannot order layoffs. A Russell vote, the head of the Office of Management of Budget, cannot order layoffs. These are things that have to be decided on by agency heads. within each agency level. There's a procedure for the reduction in force process that has to take place. There has to be a certain amount of time and notice in competitive areas and a lot of paperwork.

It's not something that can just be done at the drop of the hat. It's also important to look at the context of the entire Trump administration so far. There have been threats of budget cuts and threats of mass layoffs and other changes to the way the federal government works that have taken effect since Trump took office in January. And so at this point, eight months, nine months into his second term, there really isn't much left that hasn't already happened. You've already had agencies enact reductions in force and go to the courts.

And the courts say these can't happen. These can happen. And so there's really nothing to suggest that agencies who have already been cutting and already been trying layoffs have any more left in the tank. So it's not like the government shutdown came out of nowhere. and then all of the sudden we're left wondering, oh, what's going to happen where? Yeah, in fact, in response to an executive order that the president issued back in February and, you know, instructions shortly thereafter from Office of Management and Budget,

from the Office of Personal Management, agencies actually came up with these plans about how to reorganize, how to lay off massive numbers of people. Most of them did not act on those plans. Those plans probably still exist in some form, so it's possible we could see some of that come to fruition now. Yeah, I think it's important to note, though, that just because there's a government shutdown doesn't mean that suddenly Russell vote gets magical new superpowers necessarily. I talked to a former head of the Office of Management and Budget from the Biden administration who said, no, there are no new special powers you get. Right. That said, this administration has

shown repeatedly that they will act first and ask permission later. And in many cases, they have gotten some level of permission from the Supreme Court, we could certainly see all of this back at the Supreme Court again in the coming months. That's right. And Tam, this is one reason why I've heard from some federal workers who have taken a really defiant view. Even before the shutdown, they said, you know, Democrats should not be scared and bullied into a deal that they don't want. And, you know, I talked to one federal worker, Jenna Norton, she's a program director at the National Institutes of Health. And she actually spoke out as, part of this group. They held a press conference outside the Capitol on the Monday before

the shutdown urging lawmakers basically to not cave. Here's what she said. As a federal worker, I am here to tell you that every awful thing that would happen in a shutdown, shuddering programs that Americans rely on, damaging our economy, firing federal workers, all of this is already happening. You know, this is fascinating, Andrea, because it's so different from other shutdowns where federal workers, they wanted the government reopened. And this time, at least some of the ones who are speaking out are saying, keep going, fight on. Yeah. I think that they see that this is a moment for Congress to stand up. And with the Supreme Court largely siding with the administration, they feel like Congress is their only hope to get some sort of halt to the cuts that this administration has been making to the federal workforce and to programs.

So, Stephen, Congress does play a role here, obviously, in funding the government and in setting appropriations. They appear to be at something of a stalemate. Where's the off-ramp here from the government shutdown? Well, the off-ramp is somewhere in the future. We don't know where it is yet. The Democrats in the Senate are sticking to their posture that there needs to be some level of negotiation around extending Affordable Care Act subsidies that would prevent health care costs rising for millions of Americans. There is also some sidebar conversations happening about trying to limit the power of Russell vote, the head of office of management and

budget, from going back and undoing any sort of funding agreements. That's because the White House has put forth this multi-pronged effort on multiple fronts to try to put pressure on Democrats to drop their negotiations and just agree to what the Republicans want. They have done things including freeze federal grants for transportation in Chicago and New York. They have touted billions of dollars in supposed grant cancellations from the Department of Energy in states where President Trump lost the election in 2024. There has been this threat of mass layoffs happening. And so it is almost a full court press from the White House to try to pick all of these different things to get Democrats to budge. But so far, the

layoffs haven't happened yet. The grant cancellations are maybe just hiatuses and pauses at some points. There's not really a lot happening there. The work is still continuing. There's other funding sources. And so there hasn't really been anything yet to push the button to try to get Democrats to change their position. There's a new question today about whether these people who are furloughed or working without pay, whether the federal workers will be made whole when this is all over. Stephen, what's going on there? Well, it is a question that wasn't really a question until the White House put it forth. There is a draft memo from the White House Office of Management and Budget that was confirmed by a senior White House official not authorized to discuss it.

This draft says that a 2019 law that was signed by President Trump to automatically pay federal workers who are furloughed and who have to work without pay during a government shutdown, this memo suggests that the furloughed people may be, don't get automatic pay. And there's not really a whole lot of legal grounding behind that so far. The law appears to explicitly state that after the shutdown ends, all federal workers will get paid, but it is being floated by the White House and mentioned as a way to potentially, again, turn the screws to say, hey, Democrats, look at all of these people that are furloughed. They might not get paid because of you. You wouldn't want them to miss a paycheck. But it's just another example of the way the White House is trying to politically message what is so far a not popular decision to keep the government shut down. And it does appear that the Office of Management and Budget has updated its

FAQ about the shutdown. The version they put out last week said that this 2019 law that Stephen mentioned provides that federal workers are furloughed and those who are working without pay will be paid retroactively after the shutdown ends and the government reopens. And in a new version of the same FAQ, that language has been shortened, and it just says that accepted employees, those who are working without pay, are entitled to receive back pay. It does not mention furloughed employees anymore. I also heard from a federal employee this morning who called it a scare tactic. And Stephen, you talked about public opinion that the shutdown is not popular. According to an NPR, PBS News, Marist poll that we put out last week, the polling was

done before the shutdown happened. But at the time, more people were blaming Republicans for the shutdown than blaming Democrats. It's because in part, Republicans control the White House, they control the House, they control the Senate, they control a lot of the messaging and narrative around what is going on in the government. And so when the government shuts down, there are six or seven Democrats needed on paper in the Senate to reopen the government. But it's the other Republicans and the Republican Party as a whole that voters so far say share more. more of the blame for this shutdown situation, but we're seven days in, out of who knows how many.

And so we're going to have to see if public opinion shifts. All right, let's leave it there for today. Thank you for being with us, Andrea. Thanks for having me. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. And I'm Stephen Powell. I cover politics. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast. and the following message comes from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. RWJF is a national philanthropy,

working toward a future where health is no longer a privilege but a right. Learn more at RWJF.org.