The NPR Politics Podcast - How Trump Is Reshaping U.S.-Canada relations

Episode Date: May 7, 2025

President Donald Trump hosted Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney at the White House Tuesday. The meeting comes at a time where relations between the two neighbors and allies are unusually icy.This episode: political correspondent Susan Davis, White House correspondent Tamara Keith, and international affairs correspondent Jackie Northam.The podcast is produced by Bria Suggs & Kelli Wessinger and edited by Casey Morell. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi.Listen to every episode of the NPR Politics Podcast sponsor-free, unlock access to bonus episodes with more from the NPR Politics team, and support public media when you sign up for The NPR Politics Podcast+ at plus.npr.org/politics.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

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and tons of fixin' on this beautiful Louisiana day. This podcast was recorded at... 1.21 p.m. on Wednesday, May 7th. Things may have changed by the time you hear it, but we're hoping to have enough leftover tails for a nice etouffee and maybe enough potatoes for some potato salad. Enjoy the show. I love a crawfish boil. It's a fun party. I love when people send us these like timestamps that are so of the... Crawfish boil in Louisiana. It's a good day. Hey there, it's the MPR Politics Podcast. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics.

And I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. And NPR International Affairs correspondent Jackie Northam joins us today because we're talking about US-Canada relations. Hey Jackie, thanks for coming back on the pod. Thanks very much. So newly elected Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney made his inaugural visit to the White House on Tuesday. This comes at a time where relations between our two generally friendly countries have been unusually tense. We're going to talk about what happened in that meeting in a moment, but first Jackie can you tell us more about who Mark Carney is and how he came to win this election? Yeah it's a remarkable story. Mark Carney, 60 years old, comes from the world of

finance. You know he's a complete political newcomer. He was on Wall Street. He was the head of the Bank of England during all the turmoil following Brexit. He was also the governor of the Bank of Canada during the 2008 economic crisis. So he really has never held political office before now. And the thing is, he probably wouldn't be in office, except that President Trump entered into Canada's political arena for all intents and purposes. The Liberal Party, which Mark Carney is the head of, it was doing terrible in the polls.

It was down for more than a year. And the other party, the Conservatives, were doing very well. Their leader was considered sort of a Trump-lite. They call him the Maple Maga, Pierre Poliev. He was riding high in the polls until President Trump came back into office and all of a sudden President Trump starts throwing tariffs on Canada, 25% tariffs on his closest neighbor and ally, and then started talking about turning Canada into the 51st state.

And I cannot stress enough how annoying That was to Canadians, you know was the reaction was almost visceral More than anything else the elections in Canada were seen as who was the best person to tackle President Donald Trump That was the number one thing there were economic issues. There was housing there was immigration everything else like that But it all boiled down to Trump. And that's who Mark Carney is seen as, as the guy who can take on Trump. Also, it is a testament to the role that the US plays in the world, that any American president, but in this case, Donald Trump, can be such an influencing factor in another country's

elections. I'd also note that Trump played a similar but not exact same role in Australia's recent elections, also boosting the center-left party to victory over the conservatives. I think a lot of other countries are trying to figure out how to navigate not just a world leader who is different than Joe Biden, right, but a world leader who is so fundamentally different in the United States. I think a lot of other nations realize that Donald Trump is a complete 180 from conventional bipartisan foreign policy and they need to figure out how to navigate and deal with him particularly as it relates to economic policy and Trump's central economic tool which is tariffs.

Okay so with all this in mind we come to yesterday's White House meeting and I think one of the most notable moments was when Carney addressed the president's continued interest in making Canada the 51st state. As you know from real estate, there are some places that are never for sale. That's true. We're sitting in one right now, you know, Buckingham Palace that you visited as well. And having met with the owners of Canada over the course of the campaign last several months, it's not for sale, won't be for sale ever.

Constable, what did you make of that moment? I thought it was extremely deftly handled. And the reason I say this is a number of reporters in different ways brought up this question of Trump wanting to make Canada the 51st state. And every time it was brought up, Trump sort of said, yes, I think this would be good for Canada. Here's why you want to do it. And every time it was brought up, the Canadian prime minister had to kind of shoot it down,

both, I think, because he needed to show that he does not endorse this idea, but he's also speaking to a domestic Canadian population at home. And he, to me, spoke in terms that Trump understood. He said, you know, you're a real estate man, you understand that some things are not up for sale. And you heard Trump. He sort of acknowledged. He chuckled at one point.

You know, I think that after the very famous Oval Office meeting between Ukraine's leader Volodymyr Zelensky and Donald Trump that went so south, a number of other foreign leaders have had to try to figure out how to navigate Trump in a way that they can stand up for their own nation, but also publicly not end up in a shouting match with the president. Jackie, I'm curious what your read was on that meeting and how you saw Carney's approach to Trump, especially from sort of the Canadian viewpoint of how this was expected to go. Yeah, I think Osmo's right, you know. approach to Trump, especially from sort of the Canadian viewpoint of how this was expected to go?

Yeah, I think Osmo's right, you know, I mean, he had to play the two audiences, the Canadians who, you know, they freshly voted him in and certainly President Trump as well. I cannot imagine how this meeting would have gone if it would have been the former Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and President Trump sitting in that office together. We would have been looking at a whole different story. Carney, you know, he's very measured, he's authoritative, he's flattery, a little bit of humor in that, but you never got the sense that he was going to be rolled over by the president at all.

He was very firm in what he said, he succinct, and it made its mark. And it was remarkable if you actually saw the video of that, not just listen to it, when Carney was saying all of these things about your real estate man and everything else, and you could watch the president's face and he's just lapping it up, essentially. Yeah, you know, I am pretty good at this sort of stuff. Yeah, I've been to Buckingham Palace and that. And I think Carney just hit the right tone, but at the same time, he hit the bullseye as well. And that is, it is not for sale. Simple as that.

Jackie, you mentioned the former Prime Minister of Canada, Justin Trudeau. Trump has been needling him, calling him Governor Trudeau. He doesn't use that same language when he talks about this new Canadian Prime Minister He has said multiple times that he is a quote very nice man And so, you know, I think Carney has been able thus far I will see how it plays out over the long run, but thus far he has been able to Understand how to deal with Donald Trump and the other you know Point I'd mention here is,

I think Keir Starmer of the UK has also figured that. There are certain world leaders who fundamentally, philosophically have wildly different opinions than President Trump, but I think they have understood to some degree how to navigate the man, the President Trump. All right, let's take a quick break, and we'll talk more about this when we get back.

And we're back. And Jackie, Trump's take a quick break and we'll talk more about this when we get back. And we're back. And Jackie, Trump's personal attacks on Canada were clearly a defining issue in their election. But there's also really serious economic politics and policies at play here. Can you talk about the latest on the tariffs and what the impacts have been in Canada? Well, there's still tariffs on Canada. They have changed a lot though. President Trump has done some exemptions and carve outs for certain things. At the beginning, there were 25% tariffs, which was really devastating to Canadians

and they responded in kind. Some of those are still in place, but not a lot of them. President Trump turned around and said anything that is part of the USMCA, which is this free trade agreement that replaced NAFTA, all of those are exempt right now. It doesn't mean they're gone away exactly because the president is still holding it out there that they could be reimposed at any time. There are still tariffs on aluminum and steel, which is really hurting Canadian steel and aluminum makers. There's also tariffs on potash and on energy. Potash is

used for fertilizer, widely used here in the United States, so it's harming the farmers here as well. So those are still on there. Again, some of them have been exempted right now, but the thing is they're always just hanging over the heads of businessmen and farmers and that type of thing. And it's hard, you can't plan ahead for your business if you have these in the background all the time. Asma, to Jackie's point, the USMCA, it's still in effect and it seems like the deal, while it may seem undermined, still fundamentally holds that the US and Canada do have a trade agreement and it still largely holds. A trade deal that we should remind folks was actually put in place, crafted, signed by Donald Trump himself during his first term.

So this is something that when he put it in place, really he championed it as ending his words the NAFTA nightmare and putting in place a much better deal. In fact, he even touted this deal as recently as on the campaign trail just this last fall. And so, yes, it holds in theory at this moment in time. But I will also say that the deal itself is pretty clear, the existing deal, USMCA, that there's not supposed to be any new widespread tariffs. It does allow exceptions for national security.

And so in theory, that is President Trump's justification for these new tariffs. It does allow exceptions for national security and so in theory that is President Trump's justification for these new tariffs but you know I've done some reporting on this the question I've heard from both Mexicans and Canadians is well what's the point of having this deal then if you're just gonna use a national security to put a whole bunch of other new tariffs in place. The deal is supposed to come under review next year and if they can't reach the terms of a deal, it could just be extended and extended. So it's not like it's going

to expire on day one. But I think there's a lot of questions about what's the point of this deal if you're just going to put tariffs on top of it. Jackie, how much of Carney's political fate do you think relies on improving or at least the perception of improving US-Canada relations? Do you see this as like we've used the word mandate in our election, Donald Trump has claimed to have a mandate. Do you think that is his mandate from Canada? Oh, certainly, absolutely. Again, he was the guy who was voted in, because he was seen as being able to handle Trump, to tangle with Trump if he has to. So it's huge. But at the

same time, I think there's two things going on. One is that kind of the expectations are a little bit low on this because in Canada, which I go to often, Trump has seen is just so erratic, so wily that nobody really knows how to tangle with him. The other thing is that Canadians are just so angry and it's, I don't know if there's anything that's going to be able to patch it back together again. Yes, they want to make sure that the economy is okay and everything like that. But when all this is said and done, you know, four years from now, whatever like that, as Carney himself said, the relationship will not be the same as it has been for decades. It's over.

Asma, it also made me think about when you referenced the Zelensky meeting that went sideways really quick. But then at the same time, days or weeks later, Trump huddled with Zelensky in Rome, right? They have that famous picture of the two of them meeting while they were attending the Pope's funeral. And after that, both leaders gave a very positive readout of that exchange, and it seemed to sort of turn the page on the disastrous Oval Office meeting. Maybe it's just a reminder that like nothing's permanent with Trump, right? Like you can have as world leaders, you can have a horrible day and then a good day. And maybe the Zelensky model is sort of the lesson of how people

will engage with the president. I think there's a lot of questions about how other world leaders are navigating and trying to figure out how to navigate President Trump. What I will also say though is he sees tariffs and has long seen tariffs as the primary economic tool for what he believes are unfair trade practices. He believes that the US is getting ripped off and friend or foe he believes ought to pay tariffs. You know the example I gave is he thinks India has long, he calls them the biggest abuser of tariffs. And yet he's very cozy with Prime Minister Modi, right, when he comes to the United States.

And so I don't think it matters whether or not he sort of likes an individual leader. He fundamentally believes in tariffs. And it's not clear to me always if he believes in them as a negotiation tool, or if he believes in them to sort of equalize trade deficits. And he is not shy about essentially accusing Canada of being a freeloader. He says the US has been subsidizing Canada for too long. And so I imagine that we will continue to hear

a lot more about some of these trade tensions. All right, that is it for us today. Jackie, thank you for joining us and thank you for introducing me to the term Maple Maga. You're most welcome. Thanks. And I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. And I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. And thanks for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.