The NPR Politics Podcast - How Trump's Executive Actions Are Impacting Federal Workers

Episode Date: January 24, 2025

President Trump campaigned on a promise of mass deportation and reducing the size of the federal workforce. Has he followed through on those promises? And what impacts do they have? Then, everyone's favorite Friday segment, Can't Let It Go. This episode: political correspondent Sarah McCammon, White House correspondent Franco Ordoñez, immigration correspondent Joel Rose, and labor correspondent Andrea Hsu.The podcast is produced by Bria Suggs & Kelli Wessinger, and edited by Casey Morell. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi.Listen to every episode of the NPR Politics Podcast sponsor-free, unlock access to bonus episodes with more from the NPR Politics team, and support public media when you sign up for The NPR Politics Podcast+ at plus.npr.org/politics.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hi, this is Christine in Concord, California. After being laid off during the pandemic and writing far more cover letters than I prefer to think about, I'm about to walk in on the first day of my brand new job. This podcast was recorded at 1207 p.m. Eastern Time on Friday, January 24th, 2025. Things may have changed by the time you hear it, but I'll finally be back to doing what I went to school for. Okay, here's the show. Congratulations and best of luck.

Good luck, Christine. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Sarah McCammon, I cover politics. I'm Frank Ordonez, I cover the White House. Today on the show, we're going to look at two of the big ways that the new Trump administration is reshaping life and work in the U.S. NPR's Joel Rose covers immigration and is with us too. Hey, Joel. Hey, Sarah. So if you would, let's start there with immigration.

Just give us a quick reminder of the actions that President Trump has taken so far on immigration policy. Oh, how long do we have? There was quite a week in terms of executive actions, executive orders and undoing a lot of things that the Biden administration had put in place, like a lot of things that the Biden administration had put in place, like a very sharp pivot away from Biden's immigration policies and trying to follow through on the immigration crackdown that President Trump campaigned and won on.

The most important things I would start maybe with the border, I would say cutting off access to the CBP-1 app that migrants had used to schedule appointments At ports of entry to begin the asylum process that ended on day one Which you know cuts off effectively the last legal pathway to seek asylum at the border. That's a big deal Other sort of legal pathways for migrants to come in those also ended right away And some of the other things that the president laid out in those executive orders that he signed on the first day, I think they don't have instant impact, most of them.

I think they may lay out a blueprint for where he wants to go, how he wants to tighten enforcement down the road. But we haven't seen yet exactly how that's going to play out. Franco, Donald Trump, of course, campaigned on a promise of mass deportation. And last year, while running for president, we all remember he pressured Republican lawmakers in Congress

to torpedo that bipartisan immigration deal. So it sort of raises the question, how many of these actions that Joel just described are about messaging versus substantive policy change? I mean, I'd say messaging is probably the biggest part of this. I mean, Trump is looking for victories. He wants to be seen as strong in his first week in office, and especially he wants to be seen strong on this issue, which is his signature issue, of course.

Unlike Biden, Trump kind of wears this enforcement as kind of a badge of honor. It was kind of a tricky issue for Biden. The reality though is so much of what Trump is doing now is really basically an extension of what Biden has been doing. Joel was talking about the decreases in asylums. There's very little asylum coming in right now.

The CBP app was basically the only way. He did cut that off. So there is absolutely something. But it's not like there was a ton going on anyways. Yeah, and I'd like to just jump in and agree with you that the number of border crossings was low. Of course, it got enormous heights during the Biden administration to record levels.

But in the last few months, it had decreased again to some of the lowest levels of border crossings we've seen in a long time. There are real obstacles to the sort of mass deportation that Trump promised that are just inherent in the immigration system. There's a limit on the number of detention beds that ICE has. There's a limit on how quickly they can move cases through immigration courts. And those realities are still there.

And they're going to be real hurdles to delivering on that mass deportation promise. What has changed is the way that the administration is trumpeting the things that ICE is out there doing, making these detentions, making these arrests, you know, flying deportation flights to get migrants back to their home countries. Those are things the immigration system was doing under the Biden administration. Yeah, I mean, one of the few things that we all know that Trump was really, really, really good at was selling an idea, selling a message. He's a salesman.

And I don't want to say it's all of what he's doing because he is doing more than what Biden did. But it is about creating a culture and an atmosphere, but it's also creating a culture of fear where people do not want to come here illegally. And let's not dismiss that. The bully pulpit that the White House is important and it is big. Fear around coming illegally or staying, right, without documentation. Yeah.

And fear is a big deal. I mean, immigrant advocates say that is a huge effect that we've already seen this week, that immigrant communities, people are afraid to go to restaurants. People are worried about sending their children to school. They're afraid about go to restaurants. People are worried about sending their children to school. They're afraid about going to churches. I mean, one of the first things that immigration and customs enforcement did this week was repeal this sort of sensitive locations memo, they call it,

which said that ICE was generally not going to conduct raids at schools, at churches, at hospitals, what they called sensitive locations. That's been repealed. I don't think immigration lawyers think we're suddenly gonna see a ton of high-profile enforcement actions at those kinds of places, but it does create this atmosphere of fear and discomfort in immigrant communities.

That's instant and real. Now, Joel, you've said that so far this week ICE continues to do things like raids, deportation flights, things that are just kind of part of their regular job description, things they were already doing, and it's just been a few days. But how much do we know about how things might change going forward? You're right that it's just been a few days, right? I mean, as we speak right now, we have not seen enormous numbers of deportations in line with, you know, what it would take to remove the estimated 11 million undocumented immigrants in the country.

I mean, so far what we're seeing, according to the former ICE officials I've spoken to, looks like business as usual with a different sort of marketing spin. That is not to say that, like, there couldn't be huge raids or things we just don't know about while we're sitting here right now. But so far in week one, what we've seen is just a different message on what ICE essentially does all the time. And Franco, what else will you be watching for from the White House on immigration? I mean, I think that's one big one. You know, let's look a few weeks from now, 100 days from now. What are the numbers? How different is it

in reality to what the Biden administration was doing. Secondly, I also am gonna be looking about whether it leads to families being separated, how Trump handles that, and how America responds to that. I mean, there was a huge backlash during the last Trump administration when he implemented the zero tolerance policy and it ended up leading to children being separated from their parents at the border.

And Trump eventually kind of turned it around and stopped the policy. Now I would say the environment seems a little bit different. Americans voted for Trump in office with him campaigning on a very, very strong enforcement measure. Will this happen and will they support them or will there be the same kind of reaction? I'm curious about that too. I mean, as you say, many Americans wanted a change to the immigration system. But if, as Joel just mentioned, you know, if the Trump administration starts

arresting people in churches, for example, as they've opened the door to potentially doing, will there be a backlash? How will communities respond? I think it's a big question. Well, Joel, thanks for being here. Thanks for bringing us your reporting. Thanks, Joel. You're welcome. When we come back, the president promised to reshape the federal workforce, and he is. And we're back with NPR labor correspondent Andrea Shue. Hey, Andrea, thanks for being here. Hey, thanks for having me. So we have a podcast episode in this feed already about the executive action earlier

this week to end federal diversity, equity, and inclusion or DEI initiatives. But real quick, Andrea, what is the latest there? Yeah. So the Office of Personnel Management had given agencies until Thursday, yesterday, to basically submit lists of all the offices that did DEI work and all the people who worked in them, not just now, but dating back to election day, so November 5th. And they have until next Friday to submit a plan for laying these people off. And so already I have been hearing people getting these notices saying, you know, your job, this office is closed, and even getting dates for when they will be laid off. So all this is unfolding.

I don't think it's happened at every agency yet, but it is definitely underway. And just to put things in perspective, the federal workforce is significant. There are around 2.3 million civilian federal government employees. Do we have a sense of how many are affected by that directive? I've asked this question and to many people and people really don't know because you know of course there were people who had some you know diversity, equity, inclusion in their titles especially under the Biden administration which really promoted these programs. People were hired but there were also a lot of people whose's, you know, maybe part of their work was involved in DEI efforts or maybe they served on committees. And so nobody really knew how many

people this order was going to target. As I said, like, you know, this is not just about people who are working on these issues currently, but who worked on these issues back in on November 5th, who were working on these issues back then. So I think this is what we're really going to see over the next week and longer, how many people actually it is. But the former acting head of OPM told me it could be a pretty sizable, pretty large number of people. Andrea, one question I have about this, firing federal workers isn't that easy.

I mean, this is something that many Republicans, the conservatives have complained about for a long time. These workers have a lot of protections. There are a lot of rules in place around hiring and firing. What are the roadblocks to what the Trump administration is trying to do here? Yeah, so for civil servants, there is a whole process and there are processes in place for what they call reduction in force, which is layoffs in the federal government. I think that's another unknown. I think that we're really going to have to see, you know, what rationale the administration puts forward for ending these positions. I will say another thing that the Trump administration

has done is asked agencies to provide a list of people who were hired in the last year. So they're still in a probationary period and they don't have some of those protections. And so that's one area where we might see a lot swifter movements around people who were hired more recently. Danielle Pletka You know, Franco, you covered the Trump campaign. Just remind us, what is behind President Trump's desire to get rid of these DEI positions? Franco Bailar During the campaign, Trump really dove into the culture wars and this was an area that his supporters

really had issues with they really wanted to fight. I mean another issue just in kind of a broader aspect of federal workers is Trump wants loyalty. He wants he wants to replace the current establishment of federal workers with people who will be more loyal to him. He wants people who are going to be willing to carry out his agenda. You know, DEI workers, I would argue he perceives it more as a liberal, non-conservative, not in tune with his agenda. You know, and I will tell you, covering the first administration, the biggest mistake that they tell me they made was revolving around personnel and not having

the right people for those jobs. There were too many establishment Republicans and not enough people, you know, whether it's MAGA or just kind of in tune with Trump himself. And we've seen this time with these executive orders that Trump is very clear point that he is going to push the boundaries of his presidential power to push the boundaries of his presidential power, push the boundaries of the Constitution. And he wants people who

are going to be willing to fight with him and find creative ways to do that. You know, Trump has used adjectives to describe DEI programs that we haven't seen so much, you know, in other contexts. I mean, he calls them dangerous, demeaning, immoral, illegal. And I think that this language is, you know, is really intentional. And I think he, you know, wants to be fully out there. This is how I feel. And he wants to see who's willing to, you know, support his views on this and his plans for these programs.

Andrea, Franco just mentioned the fact that this isn't just about DEI. Trump's executive actions have a lot of implications for federal workers, including the fact that he wants them back in their offices. I mean, how many are working remotely and what does this mean for them? Yeah, so about just over a million federal workers, civilian federal workers, have telework privileges. That's about under half of the whole civilian workforce. And about 200 something thousand are fully remote. The rest might split their time between home and the office.

And these include people like, people who work at the IRS who are in communities helping people file their taxes. They might be in areas of the country that are not near an IRS office or a service center. So they might be working from home some of the time and working at schools or community centers part of the country that are not near an IRS office or a service center. So they might be working from home some of the time and working at schools or community centers part of the time.

The federal government is vast, has workers in all kinds of settings all across the country. So we are talking a sizable number of people who are teleworking. And many of them have had these telework privileges since before COVID. One other thing this week, Andrea, the president announced a national hiring freeze for federal employees. What does that mean?

You know, immediately for some people who were in the hiring process and may have already made plans to move to take their new jobs, like some of them are basically being told like this is on hold. It's, you know, throwing people into chaos. Another possible ramification is if a lot of people are let go because of the executive order ending DEI programs or they quit because they are remote workers and they can't move to be near an office, it's unclear when those agencies would be able to fill those positions if ever. So right now it's, you know, a gap still to be seen what the impact of that's gonna be.

Andrea, thank you for bringing your reporting to the pod. Thank you. And, Franco, we will bid you farewell, too. Thanks for being here, as always. Great to be here. Have a good weekend. One more break, and then it's time for Can't Let It Go. And we're back. And before we dive into the highlight of our Fridays, just a quick

message that we want to hear from you. Send in your timestamps, like the ones you hear at the start of every episode, and tell us what you're up to. Maybe you're cooking new recipes or doing something fun in winter weather or just hanging around the house, which is okay too. Send us a voice memo to nprpolitics at npr.org with your timestamp today. You might just hear it on an upcoming episode. And if you need inspiration, just listen to the ones from past episodes, maybe even this one, to get you in the mood. And with that, it's time for Can't Let It Go. That, of course, is the part of the show where we talk about all

the things from the week that we just can't stop thinking about, politics or otherwise. Our friends Ashley Lopez and Claudia Grisales are here with us. Hi there. Hey there. Hey. Well, I'm going to start today. What I can't let go of is the children of our new vice president. J.D. Vance and his wife Usha have three young kids.

And I think several of the images we saw of them from Inauguration Day were quite relatable for parents of all political persuasions, or anyone who remembers what it was like to be a kid. Did you guys see these pictures? I missed that out. Yeah, catch us up. So one of my favorites was the Vance's oldest son, I think he's about seven years old, sort of playfully bopping each of his parents on the head. Oh, nice. During the celebration event.

I know, right. They didn't look abused, but they just kind of brushed them off. And then at one point, the kid was sort of collapsed his upper body down on the rail between his dad and President Trump, just put his head down. I mean, we've all been a kid at some parent thing, tired, right, and just not into it. Yeah.

And I can only imagine how boring inauguration is for a little kid. Yes, exactly. Yeah, and this is fun, right? Like, I have, I can only imagine how boring inauguration is for a little kid. Yes, exactly. Yeah, and this is fun, right? Like I have, I can't remember the last time we had little kids in the White House or even in the VP, I guess since the Obamas. Yeah, it's been a while.

Yeah, it's been a while. And these are really little kids, you know, the three-year-old daughter during the inauguration was photographed wearing colorful band-aids on basically all of her little fingers. Oh, that's so cute. Which again, very relatable if you've ever been around a toddler. Yeah, things happen.

Okay, Ashley, you're next. What can't you let go? So, what I can't let go of this week is oddly enough a movie press tour and before everyone rolls their eyes, I'm not talking about the Wicked press tour, which from what I can tell was like this insane fever dream. Man, theater kids really do a lot. But the press tour that I've been obsessed with this week is for a movie that is much, much less well known.

It's called One of Them Days. It's this buddy comedy starring Kiki Palmer and SZA. Oh, I'm glad you know what I'm talking about. I'm dying, yes! Yeah, I was a little worried that, like, this was a little too niche, but I have always loved Kiki Palmer. I know, she's fabulous!

She's been the best. Like, we've kind of grown up together. And SZA has been, for a while now, one of my favorite recording artists. To see them in a movie together, I was like, was this for me? Did they do this for me? Anyways, and because Issa Rae, who starred and was the showrunner for HBO's

Insecure for People Who Don't Know, she's the movie's producer. So she's been, like, joining them on their movie press tour. And it's just been so great, Claudia. I very much recommend to you. Oh, I can I very much recommend to you their Hot Ones challenge. It's so good. It's just like a couple of minutes of pure joy.

I'm dying. This is all new to me. I have to admit, but I love these drinks. The trailer is amazing. I sent it to my kids and my husband. I was like, you've got to watch this. I did watch the trailer on a loop. I'm dying to see the movie, maybe this weekend.

They are amazing. And you know, I gotta say, it's just kind of interesting that press tours have like a lot of their own cultural moments now. I feel like I've heard more about Timothee Chalamet's press story for A Complete Unknown than I have of the actual movie. And like Wicked is a kind of a similar thing. I don't know what's going on, but definitely in the case of this movie, I'm like, I like this. I'll eat this up with a spoon. Claudia, how about you? So what I can't let go of, and Ashley, you're going to have to give me an assist here, is the snow in the south. My mind was blown. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I'm a Floridian, so snow in Florida

is like a lot to think in, actually. That was wild, yes. I was like looking at these pictures of like desks in Florida, and it's just snow. I was just there a few months ago and it's blanketed in snow and part of all of like the series of pictures and videos and everything that was coming out of there. And then from my hometown, I grew up Houston, they got three to four inches. They got so much. It was amazing. And so I was so worried about my parents.

I was like, are they going to be okay? But then when I talked to them that morning, they sent me all these pictures. They were overjoyed because we never got snow days in Texas. Like the last time they got that heavy snowfall was in 1960. So I totally missed out. We were always hoping, praying as kids, yes, please, a little bit of snow. So it was like a freaking miracle that that much snow fell in Houston. So it was super exciting. Even Galveston had like record levels of snow.

Now, I know, Ashley, I'm sorry. I don't think you guys got as much. No, and I'm happy for it. I'm kind of traumatized in Texas now because the last really bad snowstorm we got like shut down the town for two weeks. Yes. I'm like, you know what you guys, you know, like, you know, like, he's the fluffy fun part of snow. I'm happy for everyone. Snow in the south don't mix. You know, I lived in Georgia during the snow

apocalypse in like, like 10 years ago. It's, it's, it can be really dangerous. Yes. But, you know, I have to say, I'm just happy for all the kids who maybe had never seen snow. I mean it's very special. Like you Claudia, I waited like my whole childhood. I mean I guess in Miami Florida my whole childhood I wanted to see snow. Exactly! All right that's it for today's episode. Our executive producer is Vithani Maturi. Casey Morrell edits the podcast. Our producers are Bria Suggs and Kelly Wessinger. Special thanks to Krishna Dev Kalimur. I'm Sarah McCammon. I cover politics. I'm Ashley Lopez. I cover voting. And I'm Claudia Grisales. I cover Congress when I'm not obsessed with snow. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.