The NPR Politics Podcast - In Fight With 'Chuck And Nancy,' Trump Says He'd Be 'Proud' To Shut Down Government

Episode Date: December 11, 2018

In a testy and dramatic Oval Office exchange with Rep. Nancy Pelosi and Sen. Chuck Schumer, President Trump made clear he would be "proud" to shut down the government in less than two weeks if he doesn't get funding for his border wall. This episode: White House correspondent Tamara Keith, political editor Domenico Montanaro and Congressional correspondent Scott Detrow. Email the show at [e-mail]. Find and support your local public radio station at npr.org/stations.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hey, this is Emily from the University of Missouri, where I am currently sitting in my dorm procrastinating, studying for all of my finals I have this week by listening to the NPR Politics Podcast. This podcast was recorded at 3.41 p.m. on Tuesday, December 11th. Things might have changed by the time you've listened, so please enjoy the show. Hope she's a political science major major because that's not procrastinating. And also, hopefully we will give her at least one or two more podcasts this week, so she will continue to be able to procrastinate. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. And I know that we say this a lot, but something wild happened in the Oval Office today when the top congressional Democrats,

Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer, went to meet with President Trump. It was 15 minutes of sparring in front of cameras that ended with Trump saying he would be proud to shut the government down over funding his border wall. If we don't get what we want one way or the other, whether it's through you, through a military, through anything you want to call, I will shut down the government. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Scott Detrow. I cover Congress. And I'm Domenico Montanaro, political editor. First, Scott, how did we get here? What were they there to talk about? What were they trying to solve?

They were there to talk about the fact that government funding for a section, not the whole government, but a key section of the government, runs out a week from Friday. This was actually due to expire last Friday, but they punted for two weeks because last week was eaten up on Capitol Hill by the funerals for George H.W. Bush. So the key issue for this upcoming deadline is the same thing it's been the last few times. President Trump does not want yet another funding deadline to pass without getting funding for the wall he wants to build on the U.S.-Mexico border. Republicans have controlled the House and Senate all along. He knows that it's going to get even harder to get when Democrats take charge of the House in January. So he's really going to push for it this time. At least that's what he says right now with a week and some change before the deadline. So this meeting really going to push for it this time. At least that's what he says right now with

a week and some change before the deadline. So this meeting is set to happen. Pelosi and Schumer put out a statement saying, Republicans, this one's on you. President Trump puts out a series of five tweets saying Democrats should fund the wall. Then they have this meeting. It is supposed to be closed press. But in a very unsurprising development, the White House decides to open it up to the press, to have a pool of reporters and cameras in there to see it in all its living color. So first, it starts off like a regular photo op. OK, thank you very much. It's a great honor to have Nancy Pelosi with us and Chuck Schumer with us.

We've actually worked very hard on a couple of things that are happening. And it goes on like that for a little while until it stops being what you'd expect. Usually, the president will kick out the press

once the real stuff happens, right? Usually you've got this photo op that's pretty typical. And then the real negotiations happen behind closed doors. Everyone tries to put a good face on it. That's not what happened in this meeting. Yeah. So at the end of what you could call sort of the throat clearing phase where the president is sort of outlining things they agree on, like criminal justice reform and the farm bill. He brings up the wall. And then we have the easy one, the wall. That'll be the one that will be the easiest of all. What do you think, Chuck? Maybe not. It's called funding the government. So we're going to see. But I will tell you, the wall will get built. We'll see what

happens. And obviously, Democrats do not want to let that sit because essentially you had President Trump trying to rest the narrative and say, hey, I want this wall built. These two are here to help me build that wall. Right, guys? See you later, press. We all agree. Would be great. And then Nancy Pelosi, the current minority leader, soon to be, if all goes as she plans, speaker of the House.

I think American people recognize that we must keep government open, that a shutdown is not worth anything, and that you should not have a Trump shutdown. You have the White House, you have the Senate, you have the House of Representatives, you have the votes, you should pass it right now. No, we don't have the votes, Nancy, because in the Senate we need 60 votes. No, Nancy, because in the Senate, we need 60 votes.

No, no, but in the House, you could bring it up right now. Yeah, but I can't. Excuse me. So did you hear that thing where she said Trump shut down and then he was like, double take? Did you just say Trump shut down? Yeah, it's like she just slipped it in there. And it's clearly set him off because he didn't he thought he had sort of the narrative, even the optics in there. You had Trump and Pence. Pence, by the way, who didn't say thought he had sort of the narrative, even the optics in there. You had Trump and Pence. Pence, by the way, who didn't say any words in this entire meeting.

And he was caught on several pictures with his eyes closed, just looking like, I don't want to be here. Meditating, meditating like Chris Christie at a Bruce Springsteen concert. Serenity now. Serenity now. But you had the two of them up on higher chairs. You had Chuck Schumer sitting and slouching on a couch. You had their side views. You know, it clearly was meant for Trump to look like he was in command

position. And Schumer and Pelosi were not going to have it. But here's the thing, especially when it comes to TV related moments, right? Trump has been able to set the agenda and control events basically ever since he started running for president. And I feel like a lot of times lately that's become less of the case. He's been less in control. And this was such a key moment because the Democrats knew that he was going to surprise them with keeping the press in. They knew that he was probably going to pick some sort of confrontation and they confronted him and they got their points in. And I think they left the meeting with a lot more soundbites that they wanted than Trump wanted. Scott, can we do a quick fact check on that dispute about the votes?

Yes. Some basic congressional math here, if you will. The votes are this. With Republican control of both chambers, Trump has never been able to get his wall to his desk. I mean, that's the fact. Yes, the Democrats do have that leverage in the Senate because you do need some Democratic votes to move these bills forward. But a lot of House Republicans are not on board with this wall plan, and especially the ones who are in the lame duck sense who will not be around next year, who have no real motivation to vote how the president wants if he tries to apply pressure. Pelosi was challenging him, saying, fine, go ahead and

pass it then. Yeah, and this has happened many times before. But yeah, she was basically saying, all right, sir, show me that you have the votes. Democrats felt like they have leverage coming into the room here. You have an NPR, PBS NewsHour, Marist poll that was out today that showed that 57 percent of Americans want President Trump to compromise over his border wall rather than let it be something that holds up funding for the government and would shut the government down. You know, and the past partial shutdowns that we've had, Republicans have taken more of the share of the blame than Democrats.

And you have Democrats having just won 40 seats in the House, feeling like they've got some strength coming in. Two things there. One, I would point out that that very brief weekend shutdown that we had last January, the Democrats, that was the case where the Democrats did take the blame and they retreated pretty quickly. And one of the big reasons that they retreated was that they thought that President Trump would get the blame for the shutdown.

And I think that's why it was so important for the Democrats that during this meeting, President Trump was so happy to say, yeah, bring it on. Basically, I want to shut the government down over this issue. It was pretty remarkable. I think you have to say that Chuck Schumer, the Senate minority leader, goaded him into it a little bit. You know what I'll say? Yes. If we don't get what we want one way or the other, whether it's through you, through a military, through anything you want to call, I will shut down the government. Okay, fair enough. We disagree. I am proud to shut down the government for border security, Chuck, because the people of this country don't want criminals and people that have lots of problems and drugs pouring into our country. So I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down.

I'm not going to blame you for it. The last time you shut it down, it didn't work. I will take the mantle of shutting down. And I'm going to shut it down for border security. But we believe you shouldn't shut it down. And then in very short order, the phrase Trump shutdown became like, okay, sure, they're going to say it and they're going to say it about 15 more times.

Yeah. And I mean, this is a situation where you kind of see the best and worst of President Trump, right? I mean, this is someone who's kind of a showman. He tried to orchestrate this photo op. But at the same time, he was loose with the facts, at times kind of demeaning, especially talking over Nancy Pelosi and intimating that she was in a weak position for speaker, which she's not. And the idea that he took the bait from Chuck Schumer because of his anger to instead say that it'll be your guy's fault, which is really kind of what all Democrats wanted coming in here. If they were able to say, hey, President Trump has taken the blame, then fine.

Then Democrats feel like that's a big political win. Let's hear a little bit of President Trump trying to bring up Pelosi's leadership election. I also know that, you know, Nancy is in a situation where it's not easy for her to talk right now. And I understand that. And I fully understand that. We're going to have a good discussion and we're going to see what happens. But we have to have border security. Mr. President, please don't characterize the strength that I bring to this meeting as the leader of the House Democrats who just won a big victory. Elections have consequences, Mr. President. Yeah, I mean, of course, I've said that many times to some people's dismay. However, I don't know that Nancy Pelosi needed the help there.

Sometimes when you're a woman, you need a man in the room to amplify what you say. Can we talk just ever so briefly about the wall? The president has been claiming that the wall is already under construction. More of the wall is built than you know. And that, yes, he wants his $5 billion for wall funding. But if he doesn't get it, he'll build the wall anyway or there's already wall and it'll be fine. Yeah. You know, not sure what to make of that. But the thing that that I kept hearing and thinking about during during this meeting was that he wants the five billion dollars.

Right. But I think on some level he knows that it's going to be hard for him to get it, because otherwise, why would he continually point out it's happening already? The wall's happening. I feel like every other word he said was wall. You know, it's almost like he's already conceding that he's not going to win this budget fight and wants to point out the wall's happening anyway. It's all good. There's a wall there. It's coming along fine. He does a thing where he concedes defeat by declaring victory. And this had all of the trademarks of that. You know, the fact is there's eleven hundred miles of border that President Trump has promised to build a wall on. The five billion dollars wouldn't accomplish that. And there's already existing fencing they're trying to fix and build more barriers. Maybe

we should call them barriers and not a wall exactly. But, you know, you had the head of Customs and Border Protection testify today on Capitol Hill, and he essentially said of the one and a half billion dollars or so that has already been appropriated toward barriers construction that they've accomplished, get this, 33 of 40 miles. That's not 1100. So, you know, there's a lot more to go and would certainly cost a whole lot more money. And the theatrics or whatever you want to call it didn't end when the press was told to leave the Oval Office. The meeting didn't last that much longer. And then Pelosi and Schumer came outside to the microphones outside of the White House. And she said this. We don't want to contradict

the president when he was putting forth figures that had no reality to them, no basis in fact. We have to, if we're going to proceed in all of this, have evidence-based, factual, truthful information about what works and what doesn't. I didn't want to, in front of those people, say, you don't know what you're talking about. And I think Pelosi is sincere that that she has a long track record of being very respectful of the presidency. But instead, she contradicted him and said he was wrong to a whole bunch of reporters standing outside the White House asking her for comment. All right. We are going to take a quick break. And when we come back, what does all of this mean for the year ahead and the year after that? Looking for the perfect gift for the public radio and podcast nerds in your life?

NPR t-shirts, caps, totes, mugs, pet products, toys, and puzzles are just waiting to be checked off your holiday shopping list at shop.npr.org. All right, we are back. There was a show in the Oval Office today. There was sparring between the president and Democratic leaders. Scott, what does this all mean? Perhaps nothing. Perhaps nothing at all. We have we have seen the show many times and often it's more like a CSI than The Wire. Right. In that- You mean like, because CSI is just really fast? Just in that one episode doesn't really matter to the next

and you just hit reset and there's not that many plot points that carry as opposed to like an HBO show where you need to follow all the details and it builds on each other. I'm still on season two. I'm having trouble with The Wire because it's such a commitment.

Scott is now off onto his next career as a television writer. But here's my point. It's like a show in reruns a lot of the time because Trump says something, he stakes out a position, but the next day he has changed his mind. He has been convinced otherwise. He has gone back to something else. That's happened on previous budget fights. That's happened on guns. That's happened on immigration. Over and over again, he'll say something remarkable or newsy, and then it's just irrelevant the next day. So, you know, with Pelosi likely to be next speaker of the House again. Especially after today. Right. Especially after today. I mean, I would say that

she had an audience of 218 in there. You know, when President Trump wanted to say, oh, I know Nancy can't talk. She's like, oh, watch me talk and watch me win my speakership by doing this, because there was a lot of chatter over social media from a lot of people who may have been skeptical of Pelosi previously, who saw her as somebody who was willing to stand up to the president. Her argument all along to House Democrats has been no other House Democrat has the combination of skills I would bring to the speakership. And I think it's hard to replace her with another House Democrat and see them go toe to toe and be as quick as she was in that Oval Office meeting. And then, Domenico, as you pointed out, coming out of it and saying, I'm happy to start things over again tomorrow. I'm not going to carry this into the next day.

We can keep negotiating. Yeah. She essentially just said every day is a new day. You know, merp, like whatever. That's kind of her view of it. You know, I do think that this shows that you're going to have, at least at the outset here, an acrimonious relationship between the Democrats and the president. You know, you've really little likelihood of deference on either side. It's not often you see opposition party leaders go into the White House, into the Oval

Office and in the Oval with the president there have as contentious a public discussion. There was so much plumage in that room. That is true. And I would say probably- Except for one person. Vice President Mike Pence. I would say that a lot of times, even in private, you don't have these kinds of frank conversations between leaders and the president of the United States. You know, like you said, it's a lot of early posturing. They sound and look like, frankly, a lot of Americans probably would from completely different backgrounds

who believe the country should be headed in completely different directions. So this could all work out. We could all get a lovely Christmas holiday without a government shutdown. Or there could be a government shutdown, a partial government shutdown, what would that look like? So here's the thing. It may not actually be much of a shutdown as we have come to understand them. This is only about a quarter of the government. Congress wanted to avoid this exact scenario. So they passed as much as they could before this point of other funding bills.

And it affects a lot of departments like Homeland Security, parts of the Department of Justice, which are essential employees, which would continue working in a shutdown. So I'm not sure we have a full sense of what exactly it would mean just yet. I think that's a good place to leave it for now. And we will no doubt be back in your feed soon. In the meantime, you can keep up with our coverage on NPR.org, on the NPR One app, and on your local public radio station. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Scott Detrow. I cover Congress. I'm Domenico Montanaro, political editor. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast. And remember, every day is a new day.