The NPR Politics Podcast - Interview: Longtime Hillary Clinton Aide Huma Abedin On Parenting, Faith, And 2016

Episode Date: December 24, 2021

Huma Abedin has worked for Hillary Clinton for a quarter-century. In a new book, Both/And, she discusses being a prominent Muslim woman in American politics, intersecting personal and political crises, and whether the tumultuous final days of the 2016 presidential election distracted Democrats from important political lessons. She speaks with NPR's Asma Khalid.This episode: demographics and culture correspondent Danielle Kurtzleben, White House correspondent Asma Khalid.Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hey there, it is the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Danielle Kurtzleben. I cover demographics and culture. And I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. On this Christmas Eve, we're talking about a public figure who points to her faith as helping her weather some big political storms. And that public figure is Huma Abedin, whose name many listeners will recognize. And Asma, Abedin has never been an elected official herself, but she's been at the center of politics for so long and many times she's been thrust into the spotlight, by and large, not by her choice. So, Asma, first off, remind us of who she is. You know, her name is known to a lot of folks, particularly people who follow Democratic

Party politics. She's worked for the former Democratic presidential candidate, Hillary Clinton, for, gosh, probably about 25 years. And she was married to former New York Congressman Anthony Weiner. And she's kind of known, I would say, because of her associations to both of those people. But this is really the first time that we're actually hearing her speak in her own words. Right. Yeah. She's been known by virtue of her connections to these others. But this fall, she was in the spotlight more firmly on her terms because she came out with this new book. It's called Both And A Life in Many Worlds. And in it, she shares a lot about her faith,

her politics and her relationship with one of the world's most powerful figures, Hillary Clinton. That's right. And Danielle, that's actually where I started my conversation with her. She's worked for Clinton for about a quarter of a century. And in an era, you know, where we see so many people hopping from job to job, trying to move up the career ladder, sticking with the same employer, let's say, for 25 years feels like an anomaly. And she has gone through a lot with Hillary Clinton, the Monica Lewinsky scandal in the 1990s, all the way up through the 2016 election cycle. And I wanted to know from her what it is about that relationship that she has with Hillary Clinton that has kept her there for so long. I think what has worked for our relationship, our professional relationship, and our personal relationship is that it's never static.

It's constantly evolving. We're constantly working. We're constantly doing. She's one of those leaders who is not intimidated by other people's power or their intellect. She always wants more voices at the table. She would love to have smarter people around her. And I think it makes the rest of us feel worthy, the rest of us, and also challenged. We want to do a good job for a boss who believes in us. So Huma, I get that what you're describing is a job that you find continually intellectually challenging, but can you talk to us a little bit about any moments of tension? I mean, there's a scene that you describe in the book early in your career, where you were working for Hillary Clinton when she was first lady. And you recall this moment

when Clinton said, this is not working, and you were convinced that you were fired. You know, how did you all get through that? I just want to understand, like, how do you get through tense moments in any relationship that lasts for that long? You know, now that you're asking me this question, I hadn't really thought about this, but there was plenty of tension in the white house when I walked in, in 1996. And in part, because when I was first hired in 1997, it was a new, it was the second term in the Clinton administration. A lot of us were competing for jobs. A lot of young women, you know, we had, it was a sink or swim attitude. Like let's throw her into the deep end and see if she can do it, which is why I love sharing the story of,

you know, my first trip to New York, staffing the first lady and being on the helicopter and holding her luggage, not knowing that when a president traveled, there's more than one helicopter. And so I land first on the staff helicopter, take off all the luggage. My helicopter takes off. Marine one is about to land with the president and first lady. And as their helicopter lands, the rotors, the prop wash lifts up her clothes and flings it into the East river. And, you know, we went and found a broom, fished it out. You know, she walked on stage at the UN the next day, giving a speech, having no idea that her clothes have been floating in the East river river. And somehow, and I used a word that very first time, a phrase that I

use till today when there is a problem, and that is, I got it. And maybe for me, Asma, part of what is in my DNA is how I was raised by my father. I write in the book, we had rules and response chores in my house from my earliest memories. And mine was making my father's tea at five o'clock every day. And the one day that I tried to play hooky and went to a friend's house, my mother has me come home and says, you are making your father's tea. And why? Because when somebody expects you to do something, you better be there to do it. And I think I have carried that with me through my professional life as well. You know, I'm glad you brought up your father, because in the book,

you talk a lot about your faith, the faith that you you say was so important to both of your parents. You talk about Ramadan, about fasting, about praying, about your parents' academic research. And, you know, being Muslim in public, I will say, and I think maybe I'll say this even for myself, I don't know that it's always easy. I don't know that it feels always comfortable to speak about faith. Even in liberal progressive circles, there is a skepticism of people who are overtly religious. So two questions. One is, did you feel that you ever had to downplay your Muslim identity? I did not. And I give credit to my parents 100% percent for that because, you know, as I've shared in the book and, you know, I think, you know, my story, an immigrant

family, my parents, Indian father, Pakistani mother came to the United States. We moved to Saudi Arabia when I was two, after my father was given this, you know, a diagnosis of renal failure and essentially said, you have five to 10 years to get your life in order. And my parents moved us to Saudi Arabia. It was supposed to be for one year, Asma, just a one-year sabbatical. That was 42 years ago. The household I was raised in, my father believed in reaching out to the other, understanding the other.

He created a thought institute that researched the condition of Muslim minorities around the world. So as a result, he was having conversations that were a little provocative, that were a little, you know, fellow Muslims would say to him, why go into these conversations where even angels fear to tread? Don't have those conversations. But then I think about, I was that 12-year-old girl whose father takes her to, we lived in a monastery in Greece for a week because my father wanted to be in dialogue with Christian theologians and leaders. So I think this sense of, you know, kind of confidence in our faith and our identity while we explored the world, we traveled everywhere. My parents wanted to experience

other cultures, languages, and religions to respect those other faith traditions, but keeping this core, knowing what my roots were. And my entire 25 years professionally, I carried it with great pride. I walked into the White House and wanted to tell everybody about Ramadan and what it meant to fast. And I think now, back now, I would go into the First Lady's conference room and make my prayers. And if somebody walked in, as they sometimes did, they just walked right back out. I just stayed who I was and was pretty unapologetic about it. But I happened to be surrounded by an environment, my first entree into the United States, that was very supportive of my differences and curious about my differences. All right. We're going to take a quick break.

And when we get back, Abedin reflects on how her faith guided her career. And we're back. And Asma, before the break, Abedin was beginning to describe what it's like to be a prominent Muslim working in politics. She describes how she was unabashed about her faith, but that that didn't come without consequences. In fact, she was attacked very publicly by Republicans while working for Hillary Clinton. Tell us about that. That's right. In 2012, a group of Republican lawmakers led by former Minnesota Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann, you all may remember her, she questioned essentially Huma Abedin's loyalties, questioned whether she was a true American or whether she was actually a part of this

radical group known as the Muslim Brotherhood. The way this started, I was a government employee. I was working at the State Department for the Secretary of State, and five members of Congress write a letter basically to the inspector generals at several agencies suggesting that I was perhaps not a patriot. I have a whole chapter in the book called Patriot or Spy. It was based on videos, basically YouTube videos that were just fake news, outright fake news, but essentially maligning me, but more importantly, my parents. And to me, I come from that part of the world where your name and reputation means so much. And to have it questioned in that way was so devastating. It was so infuriating. It was so frustrating. And then to see it play out in actuality, when we

shortly thereafter went on a trip to Egypt and Hillary was sitting in a meeting with Egyptian leaders. And they said, we're not sure we trust your government because of the advisor advisor, who is a member of, as you mentioned, the Muslim Brotherhood viewed in their minds as an extremist organization. And we're not sure we trust you. And of course, Hillary and her typical Hillary says, oh, you mean Homa? She's right over there. You should talk to her. And I did. I did engage with him. I stayed in touch with this man, but it didn't matter. You know, that saying of, you know, a lie travels halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes. I mean, here we were in a whole other country and the message had already gotten through. And so when John McCain went to the

floor of the Senate to defend me and my family. Huma Abedin represents what is best about America, the daughter of immigrants who has risen to the highest levels of our government on the basis of her substantial personal merit and her abiding commitment to the American ideals that she embodies. I am proud to know her and I am proud, even maybe with some presumption, to call her my friend. It was an amazing experience for my family, but more than that, they were standing up for the basic principles and values upon which this country was built on. And I have been unapologetically proud of continuing to say I'm an American Muslim and I will always be an American Muslim. And it is one of the many reasons I wrote this book is to explain my faith and what it means to be a Muslim and what we believe. So Homa, what do you feel has changed from those early days that you had in the White House down through 2012 and even into 2016, where you had

this moment in 2012, as much as the political culture might have felt the beginning of being really volatile, you mentioned John McCain took to the Senate floor to defend you. He wasn't the only one. Senator Lindsey Graham also, you know, did come out criticizing those attacks that you were facing, both prominent Republicans at the time. We now are in a situation where there are members of Congress in the Republican Party who are leveling similar accusations of dual loyalty against Muslim members of Congress. That is not the Congress that I served with my boss when she was in the Senate, where you could go out with a John McCain, a Lindsey Graham, a Susan Collins. The list was actually fairly long of who you could reach out across the aisle to and try and do something good for the purpose

of your constituents. The culture, the anger, the ability to label them as the other, the anti-Islamic attacks, I think have only gotten worse. So what's changed, right? Because Donald Trump is no longer the president. Oh, I think Donald Trump has allowed these kinds of conversations. He successfully branded my community as the other. He did it. And it is continuing. By the way, I believe the only way forward is to have more members of Congress like the Muslim members of Congress we currently have. You know, more Republicans, frankly, and, you know, I didn't intend to actually say this, but more Republicans like John McCain willing to step up and call out this behavior for what it is, which is racist, wrong, hate-filled, vile behavior.

All right, we're going to take one more quick break. And when we get back, Abedin describes how she turned to her faith when James Comey famously reopened the FBI investigation into Clinton's emails. And we're back. Now, Asma, it's impossible to talk about Huma Abedin without also talking about her then-husband, Anthony Weiner, and the role he would play in the 2016 presidential election. For a quick background, Anthony Weiner was a representative from New York who would go on to run for New York City mayor in 2013. That all ended when he was once again found to be sending sexual photos to other women. And it was more sexual photos that would lead the FBI to reopen their investigation into Hillary Clinton's emails in 2016. Now, Asma, what did Huma Abedin say about what must have been a really surreal period where her

personal life and national politics collided? You know, I asked her about that, Danielle, and I will say covering that campaign in 2016, I don't think until I read her book that I fully understood how much of her personal life was really shattering at the exact same time that James Comey decided to reopen this FBI investigation just days before the 2016 election. And in it, she talks about the fact that Child Protective Services decided to open up an investigation into her family to essentially assess whether or not she could maintain custody of her child. I was so shocked and so shattered in that moment, I couldn't even feel because feeling for myself felt selfish. And we were in that moment on a mission. And that mission was electing Hillary Clinton president on November 8th. And I think one of the ways I was able to get through every single one of those days, which I chose to go into detail and write about what it was like. And I do write about the moment

I thought there was a knock on a door and somebody was coming and what I found in myself, this feeling of really defiance. There is one thing that I knew in this life and that is I was not going to lose my child no matter what. But I had a community around me, Asma different. You know, I talk about my sister showing up every single day. I talk to my friends banging on my door. I'm here. I'm here and I'm present. And then getting up and doing my job and going, you know, closing out the campaign. When I write in the book and talking, I would talk about testing my faith is actually things got worse for me after the 2016 election. And in part, I believe number one, I didn't understand the behavior that Anthony

was doing at the time. It took me many years to understand it, number one. And number two, there was a combination of shame and loneliness and isolation that I felt in having to be a single parent, which by the way, I think single parents are heroes. She rose, they rose. I don't know how they did it to have all that dumped on me. And that's because Anthony then had to go to prison. And also, and on top of that, you know, to feeling responsible for her loss was very hard. And it took me to a very dark place.

And my faith saved me because I had some very scary thoughts in those moments. And, and I knew that because of what I was considering doing to myself that I needed help. And I think it was my faith that kept me on that subway platform and then got me into professional therapy and to a place where I was able to write this book and share my story and really feel like I've come on the other side and maybe even doing a service to other people who've struggled in their own lives. So Asma, after having this conversation with Abedin, what is your big takeaway here? So Danielle, Homa Abedin has always struck me as somebody who is extremely private. You know, I remember seeing her at moments during the 2016

campaign, and she would be this figure you would see at Hillary Clinton's side. She really didn't talk to journalists much at all. And she's often been known because of the people she's been associated with, whether that's Hillary Clinton or Anthony Weiner. And so it was really striking to me to read about her own life, you know, in her own words, just who she was and what the past couple of decades of political life has meant to her because she's not an aide that we hear talk to the press very often or anything like that. I mean, really, this was, I think, the first opportunity many of us had to really get to know who she is. All right, well, we're going to leave

it there for today. Until next time, I'm Danielle Kurtzleben. I cover demographics and culture. And I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.