The NPR Politics Podcast - Jan. 6 Militia Leader Convicted Of Seditious Conspiracy

Episode Date: May 5, 2023

A jury in Washington, D.C., has convicted former Proud Boys chairman Enrique Tarrio and three others of seditious conspiracy, handing the Justice Department a key victory in its Jan. 6 probe. And as the country continues to add jobs and boost wages, why do Americans think the country is in a recession?This episode: White House correspondent Asma Khalid, national political correspondent Mara Liasson, national justice correspondent Carrie Johnson, and chief economics correspondent Scott Horsley.The podcast is produced by Elena Moore and Casey Morell. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Unlock access to this and other bonus content by supporting The NPR Politics Podcast+. Sign up via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hi, this is Caitlin in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I've just taken my last final at the University of New Mexico School of Law, and I'm about to graduate and get married to the love of my life all in the same weekend. This podcast was recorded at 10.42 a.m. Eastern Time on Friday, May 5th of 2023. Things may have changed by the time you hear it. Okay, here's the show. Two milestones. My goodness.

Congratulations. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. I'm Keri Johnson, National Justice Correspondent. And I'm Mara Liason, National Political Correspondent. And we are going to begin today's show with news of a big verdict in connection to the January 6th riot at the U.S. Capitol. Four members of the self-styled militia group called the Proud Boys, including the group's former chairman, Enrique Tarrio, have been found guilty of seditious conspiracy.

And, Kerry, you have been covering this story from the start. So let's begin with kind of a basic question here, but I think it's very important. Seditious conspiracy. It is not a common charge. What does it actually entail? It's very rare, Asma. It's really hard to prove, but now the Justice Department has managed to win convictions against the former Proud Boys chairman Enrique Tarrio and three other members of that group's Joe Biggs, who had a lot of ties to the conspiracy site InfoWars, Zach Reel, who once led the Philadelphia chapter of the Proud Boys, and Ethan Nordean, who played a big role on the ground at the Capitol on January 6th. Basically, this seditious conspiracy theory is that these men were trying to oppose by force

the authority of the U.S. government to try to desperately keep former President Donald Trump in power and to help lead breaches at the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021. So, Carrie, I know that there have been a number of prosecutions around what happened on January 6. What is it that these men did specifically that resulted in this conviction? You know, former President Donald Trump was looming over this trial like a shadow. The prosecutors and the defense both played that tape of Trump during the presidential debates saying that the Proud Boys should stand back and stand by. Then we saw that tweet from Donald Trump in December 2020, encouraging people to come to the rally on January 6th. Be there, we'll be wild. And right after that, the government says Enrique Tarrio started an encrypted chat group called Ministry of Self-Defense.

In reality, DOJ says that was supposed to be a of witnesses that the jury had to sift through and sit through over more than four months of trial. It was grueling. It was sometimes excruciating. But in the end, the jury came up with verdicts on almost every charge. Carrie, I want to be clear here, though, because my understanding is not all of the men charged were convicted. Well, there was one man, Dominic Pizzola. You may remember him because he had kind of wild and crazy hair and a shaggy beard. He was depicted on video, we've all seen it dozens and dozens of times, taking a stolen police shield and using it to

bash in a window at the Capitol that other rioters poured through. The jury found Pizzola not guilty of sedition, but it did convict him on other serious felony charges related to the riot at the Capitol. And when these men are sentenced, likely in August, all of them face charges that could carry a maximum of 20 years in prison. So this was a fairly resounding victory for the Justice Department in this case. And remember, last year, DOJ convicted Stuart Rhodes and members of the Oath Keepers of Sedition as well. So, Carrie, these are pretty serious charges. But overall, how many people have been convicted for January 6th activities?

It sounds like a lot. A lot, Mara. Over 600, according to the Attorney General Merrick Garland, who talked about this yesterday. He said DOJ views this as an effort to support democracy. They view it as one of their highest callings. It may be the most complex and sophisticated investigation in Justice Department history. And why is that? Why is it so complex and sophisticated? Well, because, you know, we saw with our own eyes scores of people entering the Capitol that day, but very few arrests were made on January

6, 2021. So the Justice Department has had to pour through all of this video, body cam footage. It had to identify people who were wearing masks that day in the height of COVID or to hide their identities. And they've managed 600-odd convictions so far. Many other people are awaiting trial. And DOJ has told the federal court system in D.C. to expect as many as 1,000 more cases before all this is over. 1,000 more cases. Imagine that. Wow. I do think this leads to the inevitable question, though, about where and how does the former President Donald Trump fit into all of this. You described a scene in the courtroom there, Carrie, of the words that Donald Trump used about the Proud Boys being part of the evidence.

How is he part of the equation here? Well, Enrique Tarrio's defense lawyers basically told this Washington, D.C. jury in closing arguments that Donald Trump is the man responsible for what happened on January 6th. It was his words, his motivation, his actions that led people to storm the Capitol that day. They said that Enrique Tarrio and these other men were basically scapegoats because the Justice Department can't or won't prosecute Donald Trump. There is a complicating factor there, of course. The DOJ has appointed a special counsel, Jack Smith, to look into whether anyone else is criminally responsible for what happened on January 6th, that higher levels and the inner circle of former President Trump. We have seen former Trump White House lawyers, aides to former Vice President Mike Pence, and Pence himself

testify before that grand jury as part of an effort to understand who else might be criminally responsible for what happened on January 6th. And, you know, Donald Trump has not tried to put any distance between him and January 6th since then. He's talked about pardoning January 6th defendants. He has used January 6th footage to open one of his rallies. And he really has identified himself with the far right wing of the Republican Party, with people like Marjorie Taylor Greene, who consider the January 6th defendants political prisoners. All right, well, Carrie, don't go too far away. I know you're going to come back to join us for Can't Let It Go, but it is time for a quick break. More in a moment. I know you've got to be up early checking it all out and then probably end up on Morning Edition. But thank you for joining us. So you come bearing, I would say, somewhat surprising news that despite high interest rates that make it more expensive for companies to borrow money to do business, it seems that American businesses are continuing to add jobs. That's right. Employers added 253,000 jobs in April, according to the report from the Labor Department today.

That's more than the month before and more than most forecasters were expecting. We should say these numbers do tend to be noisy. There's some statistical error, so take it all with a grain of salt. But the job market is certainly resilient, even given the challenges we have with high inflation, rising interest rates, and also the recent turmoil in the banking sector. But that's confusing. Is that good? That's good for workers. Bad for inflation? It's certainly good for workers. The jobs are still plentiful. It's potentially problematic for inflation. The Federal Reserve has been concerned for a while that the job market's out of balance with a lot more demand for workers than there are people looking for work.

And that puts upward pressure on wages. And a lot of the inflation that we're seeing these days is coming from the services sector where wages are the number one expense. So you like to see strong wage growth. But if wages grow too much, it does have the potential to put upward pressure on prices. But what does this jobs report tell us about wage growth? Well, it says that wage growth is not coming down very much. The hourly wage data that was reported this morning shows that over the last year, average wages were up 4.4%. That's a little bit of an acceleration from what we saw the month before. Those numbers probably understate wage gains a little bit. It's possible that wages are really rising more in the range of 5% per year, which is too high to get back to price stability.

Again, it's good for workers to have 5% pay raises, but it's tough to get to stable prices if workers on average are getting 5% raises every year. So much for all those layoffs in the tech sector. Yeah. Despite the fairly high profile layoffs in the tech sector. Yeah, despite the fairly high profile layoffs in the tech sector, the overall job market is still growing. And we have seen a little bit of an uptick in layoffs, but on average, layoffs are still lower now than they were in the pre-pandemic times. And of course, pre-pandemic times were pretty good. The unemployment rate in April was just 3.4%.

That matches the lowest level since 1969. And the unemployment rate for African Americans fell to 4.7% last month. That's the lowest it's been since the government started keeping track in 1972. So, Scott, I want to make sense of these different economic data points, right, that you have shared with us and I think that we've all been seeing for many months. It seems like there are conflicting signs in the economy. And at the same time, we have been hearing rumblings of a possible recession. I would say even from some rather well-respected economists who are predicting that a recession is on the horizon and yet that hasn't transpired. So what's going on? Yeah, there certainly have been rumblings of a recession for a long time now, and it's not happened. We have seen slower economic growth. The economy grew more slowly in the first three months of the year than it did at the end of last year. Consumer spending is also showing signs of tapering off a little bit, although not a whole lot. And consumer spending is the number one engine for the economy. So that's important to keep an eye on. But the job market remains really strong.

Again, the unemployment rate is the lowest, as low as it's been since 1969. That's not a recession. That's not what a recession looks like. Now, the Federal Reserve has been deliberately raising interest rates in an effort to slow the economy down and get prices under control. And it's possible that the Fed will go too far and we won't just coach to a gradual level price perfect zone, but we'll actually go off the side into a ditch and have a recession. Lots of forecasters think that's likely, but we're certainly not in that position right now. I mean, politically, Mara, it does seem that for this White House, if a recession is likely to happen, it is certainly better for the president that it would come now, sooner, right, rather than in the quarter before the election cycle next year. I think we've passed sooner. I think at this point, if a recession comes between now and

the election, it's just bad for the president. Look, inflation is bad for the incumbent. Inflation defeats presidents. Certainly, the White House hope is that Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell can land this plane nice and soft where inflation comes down, but we don't tip over into recession. And at this point, these are things he can't control, but they have a lot to do with his reelection chances. And one thing I wanted to ask Scott is poll after poll shows the majorities of Americans think we're already in a recession. Yeah. So how do you explain that?

Well, far be it for me to say that the American people are wrong. But in this case, they are. We're not in a recession. We've got the lowest unemployment in more than half a century. The economy in this case, they are. We're not in a recession. We've got the lowest unemployment in more than half a century. The economy is still growing, albeit slowly, but a lot of people are in a sour mood, that's for sure. One thing that's happened is that we know people's economic perceptions are very much colored by their political viewpoints. So when the party in power changes, people's views of the economy change. Right now,

of course, we have divided government in Washington. So there's something for everyone to be grumpy about. And look, inflation is still high. It has come down substantially from its peak last summer, but it's still high. And people are reminded every time they fill up their gas tank or buy groceries that things cost more than they used to. Yeah. And some things have been costing more than they used to for a very long time. I'm thinking of housing, education, and health care, the three things that are the tickets to the middle class. And those things were inflationary long before we had this bout of inflation. Yeah, I thought it was interesting.

Some of our colleagues on the education desk reported not too long ago that inflation in college tuition this year was lower than background inflation. And I thought, well, that's pretty cold comfort since inflation at college tuition has been way over inflation for the last three decades. So maybe 2023 is not a big year for college tuition hikes, but college tuition has gone up so much over the last three decades that that's not very satisfying. All right, Scott. Well, we are going to leave it there. Thank you very much as always.

Really appreciate it. Good to be with you. All right. Let's take a quick break. And when we get back, it is time for Can't Let It Go. And we're back. And we're back with Kerry Johnson. It's good to have you back. Happy to be here. So it is time now to end the show like we do every week with Can't Let It Go. That's the

part of the show where we talk about the things from the week that we just cannot stop thinking about, politics or otherwise. Kerry, why don't you kick it off? This has a little tiny bit of a political element. When I have not been in the courthouse listening to evidence about alleged sedition, I have been home binging the Netflix show The Diplomat, which stars – I have yet to watch that. Okay. So I have loved her since she was on Felicity and had hair quite like mine back in the day. Me too. Yes.

I've loved those days. And so she is excellent in this story of a Washington bureaucrat who's been transplanted to London to become the ambassador in a very high profile role. One of the most interesting parts to me is the relationship she has with her husband, who has been the higher profile member of the couple for a long time. And they have a lot of tension about who's in charge and who's driving the car. And it seems like something that might happen in a lot of Washington marriages, actually. It's on my list of shows to watch. I am, like, so nerdy, I keep a towel. Like, I literally have a running list of my shows. It's super popular both here in the U.S. and in the U.K. So popular, in fact, that the American Embassy in London has issued a video fact check of the first episode of the show where they talk about how how often a woman has been the ambassador.

And also they talk about the lavish parties that are held there. The Diplomat is Netflix's number one show in the UK right now. Here are four facts they got right and one they got wrong. Ambassador Catherine Wyler, Prime Minister Nicol Trowbridge. Welcome. I'm Aaron Snipe, the spokesperson here

at the United States Embassy in London. There are a lot of pantsuits. There are a lot of black pantsuits. That might sound familiar to anyone who's covered politics in this town for any time at all. And there's a lot of drama that includes international intrigue

and a cliffhanger. I won't say anymore. Sounds enticing. On that note, Carrie, I want to go next. Speaking of Brits and London, my can't let it go is the coronation. This weekend, you know I love all things royal, and this just ties in with that. But this weekend, King Charles, he will be officially coronated. And to me, it's just, I can't imagine being in his shoes for a variety of reasons. But one of them being,

he has been a man in waiting for this job for so many years. And now he finally, at the age of, what, 70 plus, gets to live out his dreams. 74. 74 years old and he's coming into power. He's coming into power. And, you know, I think it's really interesting because I was reading that this is going to be one of, you know, it's going to be this highly televised affair. And when his mom, Queen Elizabeth, became queen, you know, TVs were very new. I don't even know how many folks actually watched her coronation, but I imagine like lots of folks are going to tune into this. And, you know, there's lots of conflicted reasons, rightfully so, I will say, about why exactly the Brits maybe have a monarchy this day and age. But I still think there's this fascination with the royals anytime they get married or, you know,

a change in power happens. I'm going to be right there with you. I cannot wait to watch this. They're so political. Look what's happened to the royal family with Meghan Markle and Prince Harry having to go into exile. Well, he'll be attending, but not her. And the charges of racism. And of course, Charles himself kind of disgraced the family when he cheated on Diana. I mean, it's been the soap opera royals. And it sounds like, from the little I know about this or follow it, is that more people in England are turning off from the royals. Charles is just not as compelling as Elizabeth. I mean, that's a heavy job to have. You're like following in the footsteps of your mom who's had the job for God knows how many years.

And not just that. I read that the crown he has to wear is like five pounds. Imagine having that on your head for hours. So, Mara, what can you not let go of? My Can't Let It Go for this week goes under the category Life Imitates Art, or at least Life Imitates the Art You Consume. So last night, my husband and I decided to watch Goodfellas. I don't really know why.

Maybe because we missed it when it came out in 1990. But it's a great movie about the mob in New York and New Jersey. And lo and behold, this incredible news story. And the headline is hundreds of pounds of cooked pasta mysteriously dumped in New Jersey woods, which sounded very Goodfellow-like. And there it was. It was mostly macaroni and spaghetti and marinara sauce. And it sounds like it was biodegradable, but apparently it was about 500 pounds of cooked pasta, which was dumped near a stream near the river basin in Old Bridge, New Jersey.

And no one knows who put it there, but the spaghetti puns are flying, including one person who said that the lead suspect is a guy named Al Dente. Oh, no. That's terrible. I love it. Oh, my God. All right. Well, that is a wrap for today. Our executive producer is Mithoni Maturi.

Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our producers are Elena Moore and Casey Murrell. Thanks to Lexi Schapiro and Krishna Dev Kalamore. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. I'm Carrie Johnson. I cover the Justice Department. And I'm Mara Liason, national political correspondent. And thank you all, as always, for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.