The NPR Politics Podcast - Jared Kushner: 'I Did Not Collude'

Episode Date: July 24, 2017

Jared Kushner appears before the Senate Intelligence Committee, and Anthony Scaramucci takes over as White House communications director. This episode: host/White House correspondent Tamara Keith, national security editor Phil Ewing, and political editor Domenico Montanaro. More coverage at nprpolitics.org. Email the show at [e-mail]. Find and support your local public radio station at npr.org/stations.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

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Find it on Apple Podcasts, the NPR One app, or however you find your podcasts. It's What's Good. Hey, y'all. This is Brandon, standing on the border of Texarkana, Arkansas and Texarkana, Texas. This podcast was recorded at 1.35 p.m. on July 24th. Things may have changed by the time you hear this, so keep up with all NPR's political coverage on NPR.org, the NPR One app, and on your local public radio station. Okay, here's the show.

It's the NPR Politics Podcast, here to talk about Jared Kushner's appearance before the Senate Intelligence Committee and the shakeup in the White House Communications Office. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Domenico Montanaro, political editor. And here in his second appearance on the podcast, Phil Ewing. Hello. I'm doing the Sam snaps. Are you snapping? I'm clapping. I'm sorry.

Okay, clappy clap. You guys are so kind. Phil, some of our listeners have heard you before, but for those who haven't, what keeps you busy at NPR these days? My title is national security editor, but we do a lot of coverage about the Russia imbroglio, which we might talk about on this episode. So, Phil, thank you for being here to talk Russia. And here is kind of not actually here because I am coming to you guys from the basement of the White House in our booth. And you guys are over at NPR HQ.

We are. So today here in Washington, D.C., behind closed doors, Jared Kushner met with the Senate Intelligence Committee. He had a prepared statement that his team released early this morning, and he also read a bit of it here at the White House this afternoon. Let's hear that. The record and documents I have voluntarily provided will show that all of my actions were proper and occurred in the normal course of events of a very unique campaign. Let me be very clear. I did not collude with Russia, nor do I know of anyone else in the campaign who did so. I had no improper contacts. I have not relied on Russian funds for my businesses. And I have been fully transparent in providing all requested information. Now, Jared Kushner is the president's son-in-law. He's a top advisor on a lot of a lot of different topics. But remarkably, I think this is the first time we've heard his voice on the podcast.

Yeah, it's the first time we've heard him on the podcast. There have been a couple other times where we've heard his voice, if you paid really close attention. But he is somebody who does not like the spotlight. He even noted that in his statement. I have not sought the spotlight. First in business and now in public service, I have always focused on setting and achieving goals and have left it to others to work on media and public perception. At the same time, you know, he is a top advisor. I mean, this is the person who when Donald Trump became elected, Jared Kushner was walking around the White House grounds with Dennis McDonough, who was President Obama's chief of staff, ostensibly taking on sort of a role that was closest to the president. Yeah. And one signal of that is and this is just like weird White House stagecraft. But when when Kushner came out to deliver his statement out on the driveway in front of the West Wing, the White House set up a microphone with a White House seal

on the front of it. And normally when people come out of the White House to make a statement, they don't have a seal there. But that is sort of a visual representation that Kushner is part of the team, that the president is with Kushner. He got the logo. And part of the reason is on TV, you can see Mitch McConnell or the Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan, talking to you from a microphone with the West Wing in the background. And whether you know who the person is or not, it's very clear to a lot of audience members that the person is talking from the White House. I wonder if it's the case today that the White House people thought, you know, Kushner might be a household name for people inside the family, but a national audience looking at him on TV, especially if they just see a little soundbite, might not recognize who he is in this context. The unusual thing about it is

he's got a huge portfolio for a guy with a public profile. As comparatively small it is compared with the other people, people like the Secretary of State. But Trump has assigned him with following up with the war on ISIS in Iraq. He visited Baghdad a couple of months ago. He has a responsibility for negotiating a peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians. He's running a committee inside the government that will be charged with fostering innovation inside the executive branch and finding new ways of doing things. So he's got a huge amount of formal and informal responsibility for a guy who, as you said, Tam, we probably don't hear as often on NPR the way we do a lot of these other guys in the administration.

Domenico, do you want to just walk through this statement that, because we don't know what he said behind closed doors, what we do know is this 11-page statement that his team released this morning. Can you sort of walk through some of the standout things from that? Well, you know, politically, the thing that stood out to me in his statement is the fact that he just seems to have so little experience. And maybe that's intentional. You know, he talks repeatedly about the fact that he doesn't have a lot of experience with campaigns, that he didn't really know what meeting X was about because he had gotten hundreds of emails and he had such a small staff and it was him and his assistants kind of going through this. They are at least trying to set up an argument that says that they weren't acting with any malintent because they didn't really know any better. That's going to raise a lot of questions for sure.

But an important thing obviously in this is that he said that he did not collude with Russia. He detailed four of the meetings that he had with Russian officials, including that meeting with Paul Manafort. And that was set up by Donald Trump Jr. with Russian nationals at Trump Tower. That's gotten a lot of attention over the last couple of weeks. He said he walked in that there was all this attention or all this discussion about adoptions, which are sanctions. And he texted his assistant to say, call me to get me out of this meeting. And who hasn't done that before? Well, I actually haven't done that, but sounds like you have, Tam. I have. I've totally done that. Okay.

So he documents four meetings with various Russian people, including that that meeting that was at Trump Tower, but also with the Russian ambassador, Sergei Kislyak. One of those meetings happened at the Mayflower Hotel in April of 2016. President Trump was giving a big foreign policy speech and Sergey Kislyak came to that, was apparently invited, and they met at some sort of a reception, just, you know, in exchange of pleasantries, hi, nice to meet you, let's have another conversation later kind of a thing. Previously, a spokesperson for Kushner had said there was no one-on-one meeting, they didn't further elaborate and say, but they did talk at a reception. So now we're, you know, getting little bits more information. There's a lot of little bits that are coming through in these statements. And there's a

couple of things that are really important for people to know about this. One of this is we're relying on Kushner himself and the participants of the Trump administration themselves to be forthright in volunteering this information because they say they want to comply with the requirements as stipulated by this form, SF-86, that allows you to get and keep your security clearance. So that's what has set a lot of this in motion. Apparently, it was Kushner's updated form that yielded the leaks in The New York Times that first began to indicate that there was this meeting between some Russian advocates and Trump Jr. and Paul Manafort and Kushner last year in Trump Tower.

And the interesting thing about it is Kushner says late in his statement toward the end that his attorneys have not been able to satisfy them that one of the people in that meeting, this attorney, Natalia Veselnitskaya, even counts as a foreign advocate or a foreign person for the purposes of this disclosure requirement, which just shows you that they want this to be interpreted as them giving an abundance of disclosure and transparency, but also that they are the ones that control all the information here. So there could be meetings, there could be contacts and other such things that took place that they've decided based on their own legal reasoning, don't merit disclosure. And Kushner initially had none of these on his form. Then they updated and there were more than 100 of them. And there could still be more. But if they've decided for their own purposes that

they're not going to disclose them, we may never know unless there are additional things that come out of this or additional investigations that take place. I also thought it was very surprising in this whole back channel conversation, you know, what exactly Jared Kushner had asked to be set up. He said that. Explain why we're talking about a back channel. Give the back story to the vice president. And Kushner said that he asked if, quote, if they had an existing communications channel at his embassy, at the Russian embassy, we could use where they would be comfortable transmitting the information they wanted to relay to General Flynn. I mean, for a lot of people,

that has to raise some red flags within the United States intelligence community and within the State Department, within the Pentagon, certainly for anybody who's covered a campaign or knows security officials within a campaign, because the question has to be asked, why would you want to use a secure channel within the Russian embassy that's under full control of the Russians, rather than consult with the United States, rather than consult with the State Department or someone else, even to see if doing that kind of thing would be kosher in the first place, figuring out how can we best protect American interests so that there aren't any slip ups and the ones controlling the chain of information are the Russians, which is exactly what Jared Kushner got them into in that situation.

And ultimately, this back channel was not set up. Kushner says that the Russian ambassador was like, no, we can't do that. That's not how this works. And that they agreed to talk after the inauguration. Let me read a little bit from Kushner's statement. He says, I did not suggest a secret channel. And he also says, I did not suggest an ongoing secret form of communication for then or for when the administration took office. So he's basically saying, ixnay on the back channel, eh? Yeah. And he even tries to say that this is, quote, not a secret back channel, in quotes. So you can now have a disagreement over the definition of is, I guess, again, on secret back channel versus whether or not it was out in the open because he's talking about it. Right. And we got an email from a listener named Michelle that I just want to read her question. She says, quick question regarding Jared Kushner's session with the Senate Intelligence Committee.

Why is it that he had a closed door session and the public isn't able to hear his account of the meeting along with the Senate's questions for him? Is there a reason this is handled differently than former FBI Director Jim Comey's public session that was followed by a closed-door meeting. These are negotiations that each one of these witnesses makes independently and separately with these committees, the House Committee, the Senate Committee, and it just so happened this is the way they had him kind of come in the front door and do this. Kushner has said in his public statements that he would be willing to talk in the open or that he would be willing for the committee investigators that he met with on Monday in Washington to release a transcript of their back and forth, and even that he would be willing to testify to Congress under oath, and we may get there. There have been some early indications from members of Congress on Monday after this meeting between Kushner and the Senate

staffers that they want to have a real hearing with him where he appears in public the way former FBI Director Jim Comey did and the way so many of the other people in this story have. So we may get there. This was just kind of the opening bid in that process between him and some of these other Trump figures and these members of Congress who are investigating the alleged Russia collusion. So is this under oath or this was not under oath? We understand that this was not under oath. There's also one other critical thing here, Tim, just real quick. Yeah. According to reports about the Senate and Justice Department investigations, one thing investigators want to know is whether there was any connection between

the digital operation that Kushner ran during the campaign that helped the Trump people decide what their social media strategy was going to be, what they were going to say on Facebook, what they were going to try to do in terms of buying ads, and the attacks by the Russian intelligence agencies on American social media networks. This is separate from the cyber attacks and releases of information. This is the way the Russians apparently could work Facebook algorithms and Google News and other platforms like that to show the stories they wanted to show or suppress the stories they wanted to suppress in key places at key times. We don't know whether there is any connection. The question that's arisen is, did Kushner's digital operation give the Russians

some kind of indication about what their internal metrics were telling them about where they needed help that might have informed the way the Russian cyber campaign took place. We don't have any indication one way or the other, but that was not a part of the statement that Kushner released. And right now we don't know enough about what he told the Senate investigators to know whether or not they talked about it. But there are things beyond the Kushner statement that very likely these Senate panel members wanted to ask him about that we just haven't gotten any details about so far.

I mean, there's just going to be a lot of people who say this is simply not enough from Jared Kushner. You know, we're saying that there may have been a lot of questions behind closed doors, but how many questions could have been asked even in a two and a half hour meeting with lots of senators there? You know, source lunches sometimes can go on longer than that. And certainly when you look at open hearings and open testimony, they go on all day. So, you know, a couple hours is really probably for a lot of people not going to be enough. And even though he says that he doesn't like the spotlight and he's trying to act as though he's a private citizen in many ways, he's been influencing from the shadows and deserves the spotlight.

So I think there are going to be a lot of people who are going to be looking to be able to shine some more of it. There's one other Sergei that Jared Kushner in his statement says that he met with. Can you guys tell me about this other Sergei, Gorkov? That's right. This guy's name is Sergei Gorkov, and he's the head of a state-controlled investment bank, which I'm not going to attempt to say because it's in Russian. It's known by the initials VEB. And according to Kushner's statement, the Russian ambassador, Mr. Kislyak, asked him or his assistant at some point, will you please take a meeting with this Mr. Gorkov,

who's going to be in New York? And Kushner says, yeah, okay, I guess I will. And he talks about having to rearrange his schedule to mesh with that of this Gorkov who is in town. VEB, this bank, has been under U.S. sanctions since the Russian invasion of Ukraine, although Gorkov himself, interestingly, as our colleague Jackie Northam reported several months ago, is not under sanctions. So his bank is the subject of U.S. sanctions, but this guy specifically is not. He's a graduate of the FSB Academy, which is what Russia uses to train its intelligence officers. And Kushner acknowledges in his statement that he was basically there as the personal emissary of Russian President Vladimir Putin. Kushner says their meeting lasted no more than about 25 minutes, that Gorkov just kind of wanted to say, hey, how are you, and get acquainted.

He describes these kind of ceremonial gifts that he brought. One was a bag of soil from the town in Belarus where Kushner's grandparents are from. One was some kind of art display. And Kushner says in the statement, oh, I was very forthright and registered these gifts with the presidential transition team. And according to him, there was nothing nefarious that took place. They just kind of had a normal interaction and it didn't have anything to do with loans from this bank, VEB, to the Kushner companies, or sanctions, or anything else substantive. And then after it was over, they never spoke to each other again. Again, we're relying on Kushner's account for all these events, but it raised a lot of eyebrows when the New York Times and the Washington Post

reported several months ago that this meeting had taken place. Gorkov, everyone knows, is a Kremlin insider with very close ties to Putin, And a lot of people said on the outside who watch Russia Matters that it was only practically feasible that they could have been talking about two things, either some kind of business relationship between the Kushner companies and VEB or the sanctions that VEB and the Russian government wants the United States to lift. Kushner says, however, that was not the case. This was a normal meeting and they both went about their way. Well, and a fascinating thing about this is that the line coming out of Russia is, oh, this was just a meeting about business. Whereas the line coming from Kushner all along has been, oh, this was a meeting

about government. But if you read and if you read Kushner's statement, you're not sure what it's about exactly. It's not about sanctions. It's not about business. But he says in this statement that there was no discussion about my company's business transactions, real estate projects, loans, banking arrangements, or private business of any kind. So they spent 20 to 25 minutes with top emissary of Vladimir Putin, who's not in the government. And yet we still don't have any details on what exactly they did talk about. What comes next in this imbroglio? Anyway, what comes next?

Kushner is headed to the House on Tuesday to talk with the House Intelligence Committee's investigators for kind of a very similar version of what he went through with the Senate on Monday. That's expected to be another closed session. He may get a separate or very similar set of questions to the one he got from the Senate side. And then we'll have to see whether the committees will schedule something with him in public where he raises his right hand and swears to tell the truth, the whole truth, and da-da-da-da-da, or whether this is going to be it and the administration and Kushner say, we've been more than forthcoming with you members of Congress, and we'll talk with the Justice Department Special Counsel Robert Mueller if and when he asks, but we're not going to have a whole show trial and let Democrats turn this into a big circus where they try to embarrass Kushner.

The former National Security Advisor Susan Rice met on Friday with Senate Intelligence Committee investigators, and she did so also behind closed doors. Involuntarily. Involuntarily, correct. Most likely because Democrats and Rice realized that under the unmasking and unauthorized surveillance narrative from earlier this year, which a lot of people remember, it would have been very politically risky for her and Democrats to have her appear under oath in a multi-hour televised session too. And so when these two sides can come to these agreements, when people appear without that level of scrutiny, so far they've agreed to do so. And we'll just have to stay tuned to the Senate and House committees to see what eventually they decide to do. If you get to the very end of this 11-page statement from Jared Kushner,

you know, he basically summarizes it, says, I did not collude, nor did anyone else in my campaign. I have not relied on Russian funds to finance my business activities. I've tried to be fully transparent with regard to my disclosure forms above and beyond what is required. And then he closes with this gem. Hopefully this puts these matters to rest. Unlikely. Oh, no, the story's over. It's OK. Yeah. We've got to take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll discuss the new White House communications director, Anthony Scaramucci. match your job to the right candidates and use their simple dashboard to find the right hire. That's why 80% of jobs on ZipRecruiter get a qualified candidate in just one day. Try ZipRecruiter for free at ziprecruiter.com slash quicktakes.

I'm Linda Holtz. And I'm Stephen Thompson. There's more stuff to watch and read these days than any one person can get to. That's why we make Pop Culture Happy Hour. Twice a week, we sort through the nonsense, share reactions, and give you the lowdown on what's worth your precious time and what's not. Find Pop Culture Happy Hour on the NPR One app or wherever you get your podcasts. Before we talk about the mooch, as he is called,, the Senate is supposed to vote on something.

Actually, they're going to vote on a motion to proceed to begin debate on a health care bill. However, it is really, truly not clear what that health care bill will do. Will it repeal the Affordable Care Act? Will it repeal and replace Obamacare? Will it repeal Obamacare and fix it later? We don't know. And it turns out neither do the senators. So go back, listen to our episode from last week when we outlined all the different options

and how this might go. But we'll know a lot more by Thursday. And so presumably we'll have a lot to say by then. All right. So in other news, we all got a bit of a surprise Friday morning when White House press secretary Sean Spicer resigned. Now, this came as President Trump made a new hire in the position of communications director. That position had been vacant for a couple of months and Spicer had been filling in. President Trump picked Anthony Scaramucci to get the job. He's a hedge

fund guy and a total Trump booster. We'll get to more about who he is. But first, why did Sean Spicer leave? Walk us through what happened. And from what I understand and all the reports are, the president did not want you to go. Tell us what happened. And this is Spicer appearing on Fox News with Sean Hannity. He didn't. He's been very gracious throughout this process. He wanted to bring some new folks in to help wrap up the communications operation. And after reflection, my decision was to recommend to the president that I give Anthony and Sarah a clean slate to start from so that they can talk about the president's agenda and help move it forward. And he, after some back and forth, understood that the offer that I was making was something that was in the best interest of this administration.

I thanked him for the opportunity. And I'm looking forward to watching Anthony and Sarah do a tremendous job. That is a good soldier, Sean Spicer, who sort of papered over some of the possible reasons why he would have left the job. Domenico? Yeah, you know, Sean Spicer was never a perfect fit in this White House. You know, from day two, President Trump was criticizing him over his suits, his presentation. He's a D.C. character. He's an establishment guy. Yeah, he's an establishment guy. He's tried to be as good a soldier as you possibly could be. You know, he was organizing meet and greets with reporters during the conventions. He was going out and trying to be a liaison between the RNC and the campaign. He's one of the first

staffers who went from the RNC as a chief strategist, by the way, at the RNC to the Trump campaign to try to smooth over some of the divisions between the committee and the campaign and to try to get this campaign that we talked about was very thin staffed up. And Sean Spicer was there to do that. So as a reward for a lot of that and a lot of the work that he had done, Reince Priebus, who's now the White House chief of staff and had been the Republican National Committee chairman, suggested to Donald Trump that he make Sean Spicer the press secretary. Well, Sean Spicer took that job and it seemed to spiral out of control from day two where he didn't quite know what Trump wanted. You know, Trump wanted him to be tough and push back against the press when it came to those inaugural photos. But he was too hot for Trump's liking, didn't think it really worked for him. And they never quite could see eye to eye on how to deal with it.

And being, you know, a slick New York guy with, you know, really expensive suits and nice ties and slick hair is just not Sean Spicer's thing. But it is Anthony Scaramucci's thing. It most certainly is. So who is Scaramucci and do you think we're going to see a lot of him? So Anthony Scaramucci is a New Yorker. He's a guy who grew up in Long Island and he ran a thing called Skybridge Capital, which is a hedge fund. He organizes the largest hedge fund investor conference in the country in Las Vegas every year. He's a real schmoozer. He organizes this wine tasting in the Swiss Alps every year as well. That must be nice. The other thing that he

apparently likes is politics and getting involved. He's raised a lot of money for a lot of different candidates. He was not on board with Donald Trump in any way, shape or form very early on. There's this famous clip that's been going around in 2015, where he said that Donald Trump is nothing but an inheritance money dude from Queens County. That's what he said. Now, if you were from Manhattan and you level that kind of shot at someone from Queens, it might stick. But this was a guy from Long Island saying that it didn't make any sense. But there it was. He was upset because Donald Trump had said that hedge fund guys just push papers around and deserve to have their taxes raised.

Well, that really made Scaramucci upset. He was supporting Marco Rubio. Then he was over on Jeb Bush's side. And now he's got to try to make it up with Donald Trump. He said that he hears about it every 15 seconds from Donald Trump. And he said, I apologize for the 50th time. Donald, if you're listening, I apologize. He definitely seems to, despite his earlier indiscretions, really get President Trump in some way. He talks about, you know, I love this president. He seems like his approach is going to be really let President Trump be President Trump and don't try to control his message because you can't.

Scaramucci was on CNN this weekend with Jake Tapper, and he was talking about Russia's interference in last year's election. Somebody said to me yesterday, I won't tell you who, that if the Russians actually hacked this situation and spilled out those emails, you would have never seen it. You would have never had any evidence of them, meaning that they're super confident in their deception skills and hacking. My point is, all of the information isn't on the table yet. But here's what I know about the president. Wait, wait, wait. Anthony, Anthony, Anthony, you're making a lot of assertions here. I don't know who this anonymous person is that said that if the Russians had actually done it, we wouldn't have been able to detect it.

But it is the unanimous. How about it was the president, Jay? Okay, it's the consensus of the intelligence committee. He called me from Air Force One, and he basically said to me, hey, you know, this is... Maybe they did it, maybe they didn't do it. And I'm going to maintain for you... Hold on a second.

This is exactly the issue here. Phil. You know, you guys had a great point a minute ago about how Trump, from a communications perspective, is a challenge for staffers because he doesn't stay on message. And this is very different from what he was saying when he was in Hamburg for the G20. He said, yeah, there was probably hacking and yeah, it was probably the Russians. And he brought it up with the Russian president, Vladimir Putin.

And in his own account, because we don't have any independent recording or transcript, he was aggressive with Putin about it and said, if it was you, you know, shame on you. And then they just kind of go back to the witch hunt or the political excuse by Democrats or whatever narrative. And this is also really interesting because there are documents that you can look at. There are PDFs on the internet and reports from the intelligence community and so forth that document in pretty good detail, but not excellent detail about these attacks. And yet sometimes these guys default back to this explanation where, well, if it happened, if, you'd never be able to know because the Russians are such ninjas, they could do so without any evidence whatsoever.

And if you're on the outside trying to make sense of it all or trying to build a narrative, it's incredibly frustrating. I want to, before we close this out, come back to one other thing that happened today, speaking of message, which is that President Trump put out a statement on Twitter where he described his attorney general as beleaguered. And the attorney general is Jeff Sessions. Let me read this. So why aren't the committees and investigators and, of course, our beleaguered AG looking into crooked Hillary's crimes and Russia relations? I wouldn't want to change places with the attorney general right now. Yeah. Trump and Sessions haven't spoken to each other for some time, possibly since that interview he gave with The New York Times in which he said, you know, if Jeff Sessions was going to recuse himself from investigating Russia, he shouldn't join this administration because why do I want a guy like that?

I mean, Jeff Sessions was the earliest supporter of Donald Trump there was, you know, and for Donald Trump to now kind of turn his back in a way on Jeff Sessions. Boy, when you've lost Jeff Sessions, who do you have left? He seems like the latest figure in this White House to get right up close to the edge of the cliff without being pushed over. There have been all these reports about the chief of staff, Reince Priebus, about Seb Gorka, the counterterrorism advisor, about Spicer, who ultimately did resign, as you guys were talking about earlier. And yet Trump never gets to the point where they actually go overboard. And I don't know if anyone knows whether it's because the president changes his mind or he's got enough issues to deal with. He doesn't want to have to find another replacement and send a nominee to the Senate to take Jeff Sessions' place. Okay, so that is a wrap for all of us.

Enough out of us. We will be back on Thursday for our weekly roundup. And until then, NPR Politics has a great Facebook page where you can keep up with all of our coverage. And of course, listen for more of our work using the NPR One app or on your local public radio station. And if you enjoy the show, leave us a review on iTunes. That helps new listeners find the podcast. And one more plug right now, NPR's politics team members, Scott Detrow, Scott Horsley, Daniel Kurtzleben, and editor Arnie Seipel are riding their bicycles across Iowa as part of the annual ride across the state organized by the Des Moines Register. It is called RAGBRAI. You can see lots of great photos from their ride on the NPR on the road Tumblr. That is NPR on the road dot Tumblr dot com. Go find it. Enjoy lots of pictures

of pie and other things. All right. So that is it. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House for NPR. I'm Tamanica Montanaro, political editor. And I'm Phil Ewing, national security editor. And thanks for doing the show, Phil. And thanks to all of you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast. © transcript Emily Beynon