The NPR Politics Podcast - Justice Department released 3 million pages of Epstein files. What did we learn?

Episode Date: February 4, 2026

The Justice Department says it has released all of the relevant documents from its investigation into convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. We discuss what we have learned from the millions of pages of documents and whether Republicans or Democrats got what they were hoping for from the release.This episode: senior White House correspondent Tamara Keith, political reporter Stephen Fowler, and senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro.This podcast was produced by Casey Morell and Bria Suggs, and edited by Rachel Baye.Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi.Listen to every episode of the NPR Politics Podcast sponsor-free, unlock access to bonus episodes with more from the NPR Politics team, and support public media when you sign up for The NPR Politics Podcast+ at plus.npr.org/politics.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast for Wednesday, February 4th, 20206. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Stephen Fowler. I cover politics. And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent. We are recording this at 108 p.m. Eastern Time. Today on the show, the Epstein Files. The Department of Justice says it has released all of the relevant documents in its possession, more than 3 million pages from its investigation into convicted sex offender, Jeffrey Epstein.

Stephen, you and our colleagues have been combing through these documents. What did you learn? Well, to start, it's virtually impossible to have any sort of complete picture about what is in the Epstein files. Because three million pages, it's a lot of pages, the Justice Department compared to two Eiffel Towers. I don't know if I could climb two Eiffel Towers, let alone one Eiffel Tower. But looking at these files is a little bit like trying to find a needle in the haystack. You don't know what the needle looks like. You don't know where one haystack starts and the other one ends. And it's just impossible because there is no table of contents.

There's no, look at these files for financial records. Look at these files for court records. There's duplicates of documents. There's documents where things are completely redacted. And then you find a different version 100 pages later with everything wide open. So it is just impossible to find things in any sort of sense of finality. And I think one of the things, that is a challenge that I've heard you describe is context.

Like, what is this thing and how does it fit into the bigger picture? Yeah, to remind people, there have been other files released from the Department of Justice. There have been files from Epstein's personal email and text messages that have been released by the House Oversight Committee. And they don't have context. But we have picked up on a few major points from what we have seen so far. The main thing is that Jeffrey Epstein had a deep, wide, oftentimes very personal relationship with a lot of powerful people in academia and politics and science and philanthropy, you name it. And these messages that are in there that have come out show that a lot of people stood by him, talked to him, relied on him for advice well after he was convicted for sex crimes. And that's really the main takeaway from that.

On the other end, you also have a lot of information about finances, his finances, other people's finances that we haven't been able to go through yet because there are just so many pages. And this is something that is just going to take a lot of time to fully digest before we get any sort of complete picture. Part of the reason that the Justice Department said that it took so long to release the files is they said they needed to make redactions to protect the victims and innocent people. How did that turn out? It didn't go very well. In the hours after the files were released, attorneys representing the victims flagged that there were several instances of their clients, these women who testified about horrible, horrible examples of sexual abuse, finding their names, and in some cases, photographs in the files unredacted. And we were able to look and find people who have spoken out publicly, their names in the files, and using context. of photos and names of other victims who have not come forward and had their name out there in those files. And the Department of Justice said they took those down after they were flagged and said that it was only about a tenth of a percent of everything that they have put out so far, which is still thousands of pages of this happening.

I want to broaden this out and bring Domenico in here. You know, Democrats and a handful of Republicans in the House teamed up to force the release of these files. ultimately the Senate passed the law requiring the release. They passed it unanimously and President Trump sort of reluctantly signed it. Has anyone gotten the gotchas that they were hoping for from these documents? Well, apparently not. And I think that's part of what Stephen's talking about when it comes to the victims and feeling like they wanted some kind of comeuppance here for these powerful men who seem to have been in Jeffrey Epstein's circle and that there really doesn't appear to be. be, even with these millions of pages being released, any kind of consequences, criminality, prosecutions, investigations. And, you know, I think that that's something that a lot of people wonder why, right? Trump's name comes up often in these files. There hasn't been a smoking gun of anything so far. But, you know, acting defensively the way he has, certainly raises questions

asking why he's decided that everyone needs to, quote, move on, as he said. Yeah, let's hear that he was asked about it yesterday in the Oval Office. I think it's really time for the country to get onto something else, really. Now that nothing came out about me other than it was a conspiracy against me, literally, by Epstein and other people. But I think it's time now for the country to maybe get onto something else. Stephen, you have gone through these files. What, if anything knew about President Trump came to light in this release? we know that he was friends with Jeffrey Epstein for an extended period of time, and then that friendship ended before Epstein was charged.

Yeah. There's nothing really new or revelatory about anything that Donald Trump himself may have done in these files because they had a friendship. They went back. They were in the same circles. We knew from other files that they had a falling out. And when that falling out happened and when Trump became president, Epstein became obsessed. with Donald Trump. And a lot of his communications with different people were talking smack about Donald Trump as president or saying, this is what I think his psyche is like and trying to be a sort of Trump whisperer of things. So there is a relationship here. But it comes back to what Domenico's saying about the lack of people being satisfied. The reason we have three million Epstein files is because of Donald Trump. We had the campaign trail. And you had Trump and others saying, we're going to

release the files and show that there's powerful people in the government covering up the truth. Then, when he became president again, he became the government. He became the government and then said, why does anybody care about the Epstein files? He called Republicans who wanted the files to be really stupid Republicans. And so we went from, there's something to see here, they're hiding it, to nothing to see here, to, fine, we'll see it all. And it just doesn't make anybody happy. The people who believe the grand conspiracy about powerful people in the government, they're not satisfied. The people who didn't have a lot of thoughts about this that now have a lot of questions, they're not satisfied. And then you do have the victims that have their personal lives being dissected by everybody on the

internet trying to find these files, definitely not satisfied. Well, I mean, Donald Trump speaks in a meandering and vague way about a lot of things. Yeah. But when you speak in a meandering and vague way that has intimations all over the place about something like this, it only fuels more conspiracies. I mean, the idea that it was a conspiracy against me literally by Epstein and other. people. I mean, what role was Jeffrey Epstein, aside from what Stephen's talking about here, you know, these communications that he finds himself. And does Trump think that he was doing this

purposely because some time later those would be put into a file that would then be really? I mean, come on. That's not credible. It's not credible, but you don't know what Trump is actually thinking, except just please move on and let this go. I mean, there are interesting things in there. People who are in Trump's orbit, like Steve. Bannon, the longtime Trump advisor, sometimes still Trump advisor. People like Michael Wolfe, the author who wrote a couple of tell-all books about the Trump White House. He has a lot of communications with Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah, and the list goes on and on and on. There are people that sought Jeffrey Epstein's advice and counsel on topics ranging from video game micro transactions to meeting with the founder of the 4chan image board and the, sort of hotbed for a lot of other conspiracies down the line. Epstein was asked to weigh in on cryptocurrency before cryptocurrency was a real thing and he drew the line at this concept of a rugpole,

which is where you put a lot of money into crypto, get other people to put a lot of money, and then take it all away and leave investors with nothing and personally profit. And so it is just stunning the tangled web of people and ideas and things that he was involved with and weighed in on. And again, all of these things happened after he registered as a sex offender. And the through line in all of this more so than a neat story tied up and a bow of, yep, here's the Epstein Files. This is what it is. It's just this reckoning with people in power, regardless of party and ideology, that exist and kind of have rules that are different from everybody else. Yeah.

And this has been a story that's just been gnawing and nagging at Donald Trump. I mean, it clearly is something that he feels hurts him politically. And if you don't believe the polls that have been out there, including our own late last year, we had a survey that showed 61% of people disapproved of how the Trump administration was handling the Epstein files. Of course, that was before all of these pages of files were released that we're talking about here. But look at his actions. I mean, very much on the defensive, you know, getting irritated with a CNN reporter, Caitlin Collins, because of her third question on this instead deflecting and saying, I've known you for a decade, why don't you smile more? I've never seen you smile. And her response was, I'm asking you about the victims of Jeffrey Epstein. Do you really want me to smile right now? Yeah, threatening to sue Trevor Noah for really what was a throwaway joke at the Grammys about it. Him, again, saying that you should move on. This all clearly gets under his skin and he doesn't like that he feels like he's constantly put under the spotlight and associated with somebody who obviously is accused of very bad things.

All right. We are going to take a quick break. And when we get back, more on what Republicans were hoping to get out of these files. And we're back. We've been talking about the Justice Department's recent release of more than three million pages of documents related to convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. And we talked before about how there was bipartisan support for getting these files released, how President Trump had campaigned on releasing these files. There had also been a lot of anticipation that these files might prove that former President Bill Clinton had done something wrong. Like Trump, he also had a friendship of some kind with Epstein. Was there anything new about him in these files? Not really anything new. It's important to go back in time and remember that there have been several other earlier releases of these Epstein files from the Justice Department and information turned over to the House Oversight Committee from Epstein's estate through a subpoena.

In those emails and photos and text messages and things, there were some pictures from a time Bill Clinton went on a trip with Epstein in Asia. And there's pictures of Bill Clinton with Epstein. There's pictures of him hanging out and lounging and things. And from there, it was one of the first things to come out from that big batch of correspondence that Republicans highlighted. It has blossomed into this demand that the House Oversight Committee's investigation into Epstein should have Bill Clinton come and testify and Hillary Clinton, too. And there is an agreement. to have them come testify. They agreed to that in negotiations with Republicans.

Politics is one aspect of the Epstein files. But while we cover politics, I don't think it's the overwhelming and overriding important factor of the Epstein files or what Jeffrey Epstein meant, right? I mean, there's this broader story here of powerful men with power and influence and money who are named in a lot of these things. Not all of it points to criminal activity necessarily, but certainly lends itself to, you know, Jeffrey Epstein having cultivated a cadre of men who, you know, he could sort of insulate himself in case there were potential problems. I mean, think about when you cultivate politicians, you might want something in return for that. The thing, though, that with the politics of this, Congress has an oversight ability and an ability to subpoena people. to bring people forward and to shine light and to ask people new questions. Who are Republicans focusing on right now? But again, the Clintons, Bill and Hillary Clinton, which I'm not even sure what Hillary Clinton has to do with, again, Bill Clinton's potential issues. I feel like this is

something where she's been dragged through the mud ever since Monica Lewinsky and obviously she had nothing to do with anything related to her husband's peccadillos, as Mara Liason might say. But the fact is here, where's the oversight for everybody, right? And I think that's the difference in what I've been hearing from Democrats is a lot of Democrats are saying, hey, if the Clintons were involved somehow, then let's hear from them. But if the Trump's were involved or if Trump was involved or other people were involved, bring all of them forward. Let's shine a light on everything that people did. One day, current President Donald Trump will become former President Donald Trump again. And reading between the lines here, plenty of Democrats in Congress are perfect.

okay with it either being come testify or will hold you in contempt and applying that down the road to Trump or his family or his cabinet or you name it. You know, we're very deferential in this country to power. Like it's really, it's very different than a lot of other countries where they've put presidents in jail for issues. They've brought them up on corruption charges. And it seems like in America, for whatever reason, we seem to, you know, defer to the president, protect them and insulate them somehow, like they're of a higher standard and don't need to be brought in front of Congress to, you know, not lie under oath and raise their right hand and say that what they're saying is the whole truth punishable by perjury charges. I mean, it's a very unique thing. I think it's

something that a lot of Americans, when you poll them, you know, are irritated by. And that's why you've seen a big populist shift, I think, in this country, whether it's right or left. You know, if nothing else, it would seem that these files have confirmed that there are powerful and wealthy people playing by different rules than the rest of us. And I think distrust in power is one of the major reasons why we are where we are today in American politics. Domenico, there was so much pressure that these files would amount to something. Now that they're released, why doesn't it feel like there's closure? Well, number one, I think about how difficult it is to connect the dots on some of these files, to be able to figure out what exactly has been done,

wrongdoing whether or not there's an actual through line there. And it feels like the Justice Department, frankly, wants to, quote, move on also. And, you know, the person who's been most out front on talking about this has been a Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche, who, again, was a personal attorney of the presidents before becoming Deputy Attorney General. And, you know, listen to the way he talked about this on Fox News. Some of these men may have done horrible things. and if we have evidence that allows us to prosecute them, you better believe we will. But it's also the kind of thing that the American people need to understand that it isn't a crime to party with Mr. Epstein. There's a big difference between how Todd Blanche is talking about the Epstein files and real things that came of this and real victims of crimes of powerful men with money, influence, and power versus, say, what Donald Trump has wanted in.

retribution campaigns against some people with often flimsy cases like James Comey, the former FBI director and others, right? And there's a big difference in how they're quote unquote investigating and then sort of feeling like it's being dismissed and saying it's not a crime to party with Mr. Epstein. Stephen, this certainly raises the question of whether the victims have or will get justice. It's a question that I don't think is going to be answered. and I don't think can be answered satisfactorily, given the way everything is played out. Earlier this week on All Things Considered,

Scott Detrow interviewed Annie Farmer, who was one of the women who accused Epstein, and this is what she had to say about finding her name and seeing other names in the files. My own personal information, you know, being date of birth, phone number, things like that, leaking out, certainly makes me feel out of control. But I really feel so much worse for those.

I had a decision to come forward. And I know there's so many for lots of good reasons that chose not to come forward. And I feel really sick to my stomach just thinking about the fact that because of the way this was handled, they feel so out of control right now. The point of this is that there are hundreds of women, many of whom were minors, that said that a powerful man and powerful men did. unspeakable things to them. And that has been filtered through the lens of, does this hurt or help the president? Does this hurt or help Democrats and Republicans in the midterms? And so for these people, like this is a completely different reality than what often gets discussed in Washington. And I think it's a reason why you had a near unanimous passage of Congress because you had some

of these women come and speak to Congress and say, this is not a Democrat thing. It's not a Republican thing. This is my personal story. And so I don't want that to get lost in the also necessary discussion about the political ramifications of this. Yeah, they tapped into the political system to try to get some modicum of justice. And instead, they're kind of back where they were, except maybe even more exposed. All right, well, we're going to leave it there for today. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Stephen Fowler. I cover politics. And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.