The NPR Politics Podcast - Kavanaugh & His Accuser Blasey Ford Testify About Sexual Misconduct Allegations

Episode Date: September 28, 2018

Judge Brett Kavanaugh was defiant and visibly angry as he testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee on Thursday afternoon, rebutting earlier emotional testimony from the woman who has accused him of sexual assault, Christine Blasey Ford. This episode: political reporter Asma Khalid, national political correspondent Mara Liasson, and Congressional correspondent Scott Detrow. Email the show at [e-mail]. Find and support your local public radio station at npr.org/stations.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. It is Thursday, September 27th at 7.31 p.m. Today, Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh and Dr. Christine Blasey Ford testified in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee. They both addressed Ford's accusation that Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her during high school. I am here today not because I want to be. I am terrified. I am here because I believe it is my civic duty to tell you what happened to me while Brett Kavanaugh and I were in high school. None of these allegations are true. Correct. No doubt in your mind. Zero. I'm 100% certain. Not even a scintilla. Not Not a centilla. 100% certain, Senator.

You swear to God. I swear to God. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover politics. I'm Scott Detrow. I cover Congress. I'm Mara Liathan, national political correspondent. So the country was glued to the television today, and many folks were watching this live. In fact, there was a story on NPR.org where we saw picture after picture of people in airports and coffee shops, in fact, even in New York in front of the Stock Exchange at work watching this hearing. And we are going to break down the key moments of what happened.

But first, I want to get to what exactly this means. So, Mara and Scott, to both of you, I just want to have your initial gut reactions. Does this hearing change anything in terms of the actual Kavanaugh confirmation? I was in the room all day, and I honestly don't know. There were so many different feelings at different times. But the bottom line is this was an incredibly emotional day, and it clearly cut into the country away most political moments don't. I just honestly don't know what that means for the vote. Yeah, I think it was a bona fide cultural moment that will have ripple effects in ways we don't know, and they might show up in the November elections. But as far as Kavanaugh's

confirmation, he ended up where he was, which is a little bit better than even for being confirmed. A little bit better than even. I would say at noon, Republicans were reaching for the Pepto-Bismol. By three o'clock, four o'clock, they were feeling better. All right. Well, let's talk through why that was the case and what exactly happened. I want to begin with Christine Blasey Ford's testimony. There is a moment that I thought was really particularly powerful during her testimony. It seemed, I would say, extremely raw. And that's when Senator Leahy asked her about her memories. What is the strongest memory you have? Strongest memory of the incident.

Something that you cannot forget. Take whatever time you need. Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. The uproarious laughter between the two. And they're having fun at my expense people were crying in the room people were feeling the emotion of this woman sitting at a table knowing that millions of people across the country were watching talking about something deeply personal and talking about something that she says that has affected her entire life.

And you could feel it in the room. And it just really that moment in particular was an electric moment where you knew that this was a sincere thing that she was saying that would that would replay a news broadcast for the next few days. How did the Republican senators react? Were you watching any of their expressions? I did a lot of body language watching today. And there was a strange dynamic throughout Ford's testimony where the Republican senators chose not to ask the questions themselves. They chose Maricopa County, Arizona, prosecutor Rachel Mitchell to do all the questioning. I just wanted to tell you the first thing that struck me from your statement this morning was that you were terrified. And I just wanted to let you know I'm very sorry. That's not right. And I understood the reason because going back to those Clarence Thomas hearings, having Republicans questioning, undermining, confronting a woman talking about sexual assault would be a political disaster. But I don't think this really worked too well either, because the end result was 11 Republican men sitting there staring straight ahead,

stone faced, looking somber, sometimes with their arms crossed, sometimes leaning back, peering down over her and not talking. I was struck that not once did they say anything to her at all or thank her for testifying like every Democrat made a point to do. With the exception of Ben Sasse, who apparently went up to her after she was finished. That is right. That's right. Ben Sasse went and talked to her. And apparently said he was glad she came. Yeah. Yeah. So, Mara, what stood out to you the most from the testimony we heard from her? What stood out to me about her testimony was how credible it sounded. She was a real person.

And at this point, I will do my best to answer your questions and would request some caffeine. A Coke or something? That sounds good. That would be great. Thank you. She was apologized a lot. Your letter. I'm not understanding. I'm sorry. She seemed eager to please and accommodate them. Does that work for you? Does that work for you as well?

We're here to accommodate you, not you accommodate us. I'm used to being collegial. Go ahead. Completely different. We'll get to him later, but completely different than the aggressive attack that he took. She stuck to her guns. You know, she was asked about her memory. She said it was 100 percent certain. With what degree of certainty do you believe Brett Kavanaugh assaulted you?

One hundred percent. One hundred percent. And I think she came off as very credible. Yeah, throughout the testimony, I think she was pretty straightforward saying, I wish I could remember that, but I couldn't. And at one point that got a lot of attention, she got pretty technical about it. How are you so sure that it was he? The same way that I'm sure that I'm talking to you right now. It's just basic memory functions and also just the level of norepinephrine and epinephrine in the brain that sort of, as you know, encodes that neurotransmitter,

encodes memories into the hippocampus. And so the trauma-related experience then is kind of locked there, whereas other details kind of drift. So what you are telling us is this could not be a case of mistaken identity. Absolutely not. You know, Rachel Mitchell, who is the woman, the prosecutor, asking all of these questions to Dr. Ford, did specifically ask her about the statements that some of the other people who were allegedly at the same party made that they don't necessarily remember the story this way. She was asked in particular about a friend of hers who said that she did not recall the incident. And so Rachel Mitchell sort of raised questions, I would say, at that point about her credibility.

Are you aware that the three people at the party besides yourself and Brett Kavanaugh have given statements under penalty of felony to the committee? Yes. And are you aware of what those statements say? Yes. Are you aware that they say that they have no memory or knowledge of such a party? Yes. Do you have any particular motives to ascribe to Leland?

I guess we could take those one at a time. Leland has significant health challenges, and I'm happy that she's focusing on herself and getting the health treatment that she needs. And she let me know that she needed her lawyer to take care of this for her, and she texted me know that she needed her lawyer to take care of this for her and she texted me right afterward with an apology and good wishes and etc so I'm glad that she's taking care of herself I don't expect that PJ and Leland would

remember this evening it was a very unremarkable party. It was not one of their more notorious parties because nothing remarkable happened to them that evening. They were downstairs. And Mr. Judge is a different story. I would expect that he would remember that this happened. Beyond that point, I don't know if I found Rachel Mitchell to be this extremely aggressive prosecutor. Being there in person is very valuable, but there were moments where I thought, I wonder how this is coming through on TV.

I wonder how this is coming through on the radio. What did you think about that moment? Yeah. And well, not just that moment, but the entire exchange all morning between between Mitchell and Ford I just wasn't sure how it was coming through because sometimes sometimes Mitchell would seem a little confrontational like she was trying to undermine um Ford like that moment there was this whole exchange about you you've said you're afraid of flying but you flew here try to explain that and she was saying well I didn't enjoy it but I did fly here but but they also seem to respect each other and they would smile with each other and laugh at the moments of absurdity like like the five minute pauses in their conversation that lasted throughout the course of the day.

So that was that was an interesting interplay to watch go on all day. During the morning, many Republicans were questioning in social media and other ways why the what was the Republican plan? It didn't seem like Rachel Mitchell was there to accomplish anything specific with Dr. Ford except for to show her respect and to be a shield so that none of the white male Republican senators had to interact with this woman and potentially make a big gaffe. But she didn't press her very hard. She was trying to poke holes in her story. There's several different key audiences here. And one of them is that handful of Republican senators who could vote no or could vote yes.

And the other is the public at large. And I think a lot of the things that I think might resonate weren't those big statements and big explanations of things that happened. But those little moments where she did apologize and say, I wish I could be a better witness. Or say things that just made her seem like a human being, like a person plucked off the street, which for a lot of intents and purposes, she is saying, you know, Senator Grassley, I wish you would come to California. I would have loved to host you. Or where did you get the advice to hire lawyers? All my friends on the beach told me, you know, just just things that that anyone could have made her seem a little bit more human, you think, as a witness. So, Mara, you were just talking a bit ago about, you know, the fact that she seemed credible, but even though there was really no one else there who could corroborate her story. Well, they chose not, yeah, they chose not to bring any other witnesses. And that meant that it was a he said, she said situation, which is exactly what the Republicans wanted. They wanted

an unprovable situation. And what struck me about the whole day was exactly what the Republicans wanted. They wanted an unprovable situation. And what struck me about the whole day was how carefully the Republicans stuck to their playbook. The goal was to attack Democrats, not her, to make her into a victim of the Democrats. And we heard that, how much her family had suffered. Yes, we heard that all day. They were very careful not to attack her. They were careful not to engage with her at all and just put up Rachel Mitchell for the questioning of her. The minute she was gone, Kavanaugh came. They kind of hustled Rachel Mitchell off the stage after a couple minutes,

and then it became a partisan knife fight. The morning, which I think was extremely important for the public at large and might have political effects in the public at large, but the morning was kabuki theater. The morning was something the Republicans just had to get through. The afternoon was the real political story. All week, it has been hard for Republicans to walk the line that they're trying to walk of saying, everyone should be heard. Ford needs to be taken seriously. We want to hear her. And at the same time, say, we're moving forward with a vote. We're going to vote the day after this hearing. We want to get Kavanaugh on the court. And this is a partisan attack by the Democrats because those two things fundamentally don't square. Now, when you bring out the other allegations as well, I think Republicans could

make the argument that that allegations are flying from all corners. But just talking about the four and I'm not discounting other allegations or giving them credibility or not credibility, but they were trying to do two different things with Ford and Kavanaugh, and it's really hard to draw a through line between them. So it seems like the mourning, in many ways, Mara, as you were saying, was a chance for Republicans to allow Dr. Ford to air these grievances. It was something they needed to do. Right. That was one of their goals, to not be accused of dismissing her, insulting her. No shades of Anita Hill when she was called a little nutty and a little slutty. That didn't happen. So they succeeded.

In that. Yeah. At the expense of having an extremely credible witness talk all morning. All right. Well, the afternoon took on a remarkably different tone. We're going to take a quick break. And when we get back, we'll discuss Brett Kavanaugh's testimony. Support for NPR and the following message come from PBS presenting a new documentary called Dark Money. It's about a journalist trying to expose the dark money groups who contribute large sums of untraceable money to buy politicians and influence elections. Exploring questions including who are these groups? What are they hiding?

Are they foreign or domestic? And what does it mean for American voters? Don't miss Dark Money, Monday, October 1st at 10, 9 central, only on PBS. Sam Sanders here. This week on my show, I interview actress Natasha Rothwell, also known as Kelly from HBO's Insecure. We talk about that role and how she got a writing job on SNL through a secret black woman only audition. Download it now. It's been a minute from NPR. And we're back. And Mara, Scott, let's talk through the Kavanaugh section of the day. Let's start at the beginning, because what I found just so,

I would say, startling was the degree to which Judge Kavanaugh came in with such a different tone than the morning. He was angry. And there's a moment when he talks about just feeling like this was a completely unfair character assassination. And he talks about this being some sort of left-wing conspiracy. You have replaced advice and consent with search and destroy. Since my nomination in July, there's been a frenzy on the left to come up with something, anything to block my confirmation. Scott, what was the mood like in the room? Presumably there were different people

probably at that point, right? More folks who were supporting. Yeah, the first couple rows changed out and it was all his allies. I was actually sitting directly behind his mother and father. Oh, wow. It got tense, more tense,

even more tense, even more tense. That was an uncomfortable room to be in this afternoon. And it started right out of the gate with Kavanaugh's testimony. He is under attack. And rather than sticking to the I didn't I didn't do this. I didn't know this woman. I'm not questioning whether she was assaulted, but it wasn't by me tone from that Fox interview. He did say that. But then he just turned on the Democrats and he

did not act like a federal judge. He acted like a political person in a political fight because that is what he's in. And it was pretty striking to watch. This whole two week effort has been a calculated and orchestrated political hit. Fueled with apparent pent up anger about President Trump and the 2016 election, fear that has been unfairly stoked about my judicial record, revenge on behalf of the Clintons, and millions of dollars in money from outside left-wing opposition groups.

This is a circus. She was relatively cool, normal, calm. He was as hot as anyone I have ever seen. Super partisan, left-wing conspiracy, revenge of the Clintons, attacking the Democrats. And I think he took the Trump playbook and executed it to the best of his ability. Which is what? Which is to be- Deny, deny. Well, deny, deny and counterattack, counterattack. Remember the motto, somebody hits me, I hit back 10 times harder. And he was really emotional throughout. The White House apparently thought he did a good job.

Your coordinated and well-funded effort to destroy my good name and destroy my family will not drive me out. The vile threats of violence against my family will not drive me out. You may defeat me in the final vote, but you'll never get me to quit. Never. I'm here today to tell the truth. I've never sexually assaulted anyone. Not in high school, not in college, not ever. There were a couple of moments where he was really emotional and his voice broke. You could see him choking up.

One was when he described one of his daughters who's been praying lately for the woman, as he referred to her, meaning Dr. Ford. The other night, Ashley and my daughter Liza said their prayers. And little Liza, all 10 years old, said to Ashley, we should pray for the woman. It's a lot of wisdom from a 10-year-old. And there was a moment where Senator Klobuchar asked him about his drinking behavior, his drinking habits, and we should point out this is a sort of a pattern of questioning that came up pretty frequently from Democrats, and it got pretty heated here in this moment.

I think you've probably had beer center, and so... So you're saying there's never been a case where you drank so much that you didn't remember what happened the night before or part of what happened? You're asking about, yeah, blackout. I don't know. Have you? Could you answer the question, Judge? So that's not happened.

Is that your answer? Yeah, and I'm curious if you have. I have no drinking problem, Judge. Nor do I. Okay, thank you. He apologized for that when he came back from the break, and before that exchange happened, he made a point, which he didn't really make with other Democratic senators, to tell Senator Klobuchar that he appreciated their meetings, that he respected her. But that was a moment of gender dynamics, for sure, that I wondered, how would we all be talking if it was Ford who said, what about you? What about you? Do you have that problem? No woman could have gotten away with throwing a question back in the face of a United States senator. So, Scott, you were there in the room, and I'm curious how you saw the Democrats'

line of questioning. It seemed like they had kind of two main points they kept bringing up. One was his past, particularly from a high school yearbook. Yeah. And the other was this FBI line of—this FBI investigation. I welcome whatever the committee wants to do because I'm telling the truth. I want to know what you want to do. I'm telling the truth.

I want to know what you want to do, Judge. I'm innocent. I'm innocent of this charge. Then you're prepared for an FBI investigation? They don't reach conclusions. You reach the conclusions, Senator. No, but they do investigate questions. I'm innocent. And you can't have it both ways, Judge. You can't say here at the beginning,

in the fashion moment, I welcome any kind of investigation. This thing was sprung on me. This thing was sprung at the last minute after being held by staff. You know. Judge, if there is no truth to her charges, the FBI investigation will show that. I was pretty skeptical of these tactics, to be honest.

I think there are serious lines of questioning, and I think you got a little bit of them. On the FBI, first of all, it I think you got a little bit of them on the FBI. First of all, it's not it's just not going to happen at this point. And whether or not you think that's right, I don't understand why you would spend so much time in the hearing devoted to that. But I think all those emotions could be pretty powerful in keeping Republicans backing Kavanaugh's nomination in the Senate and without. Because because if you think he's being unfairly accused, he's saying you have ruined my reputation. You have ruined my family. You have come after my children. This is ridiculous. And I think if you're if you're inclined to support Brett Kavanaugh, that really strikes a chord when you see a guy sitting there saying you have ruined my life and I'm not going to take it anymore.

Shortly after I was nominated, the Democratic Senate leader said he would, quote, oppose me with everything he's got. A Democratic senator on this committee publicly referred to me as evil. Evil. Think about that word. And said that those who supported me were, quote, complicit in evil. And this was a tribal call to people who might feel that she's credible. This process was dirty. But you've also got to feel like he feels emotionally hurt by this.

I mean, when he's talking about, you know, his daughter, he says praying for the woman. You can be a cynic and argue about the motives and whatnot. But there were a couple of moments where he did seem to be really sort of emotionally. Oh, that emotion was real. No doubt about it. I think he is truly aggrieved. I think that he's telling the truth as he knows it. Maybe he doesn't remember it. Maybe it's because he was drunk. But I do think what he said over and over again, which I really jumped out at me was, I worked my butt off for this. Sarah, I was at the top of my class academically, busted my butt in school, captain of the varsity basketball team, got into Yale College.

When I got into Yale College, got into Yale Law School, forked my tail off. It was like the horror of having this taken away from him in a process he considered so unfair. I worked my butt off. This is my seat. You can't take it away from me. Kind of in the way, Mara, that feeling, and you're totally right. I think a lot of people who are inclined to support Brett Kavanaugh felt that and hated it in Hillary Clinton. I have worked my whole life for this moment.

How dare you take it from me? You know that we don't know what the political fallout from this will be. I think the immediate politics are his confirmation looks a lot better now than it did at noon today after whenever it was that she finished. And I think that he came out with as much heat and passion and partisan aggression as he could. That was the only way to save himself after the Fox interview that most Republicans thought went terribly. And it may look, you know, save him. It may get him a seat on the Supreme Court. And we'll talk more about this tomorrow in a later pod, but I can't imagine her tone of deference. And so she was being so polite compared to his sort of emotional volatility and anger.

I think it will be fine with Republican voters. Don't forget, 54% of Republicans in a poll that I saw said that he should be confirmed even if these allegations are true. Mara, what stood out to you from his testimony? Well, what stood out to me was the kind of tribal call. I mean, it was his testimony. It was Lindsey Graham delivering this incredibly hot attack on Democrats saying, all you want is power. You just want to keep the seat open till the next election, hoping you win the Senate. Well, yes, that's exactly right. Just like Mitch McConnell kept the Merrick Garland seat open for 10 months, hoping that they'd get the White House back, which they did. Now, the difference is what Republicans will say to you is, yes, McConnell broke, you know, changed the rules and did that,

but he didn't destroy someone's life in the process. If you vote no, you're legitimizing the most despicable thing I have seen in my time in politics. You want this seat? I hope you never get it. I hope you're on the Supreme Court. That's exactly where you should be. And I hope that the American people will see through this charade. And I wish you well. And I intend to vote for you. And I hope everybody who's fair-minded will.

The bottom line is he seems pretty safe for confirmation. That's what most Republicans have concluded. It's hard to see a Republican who would like to run in a Republican primary in the future voting no. Theme of the last, I guess, since the beginning of this podcast, right? Since we've been doing this podcast, theme of the political world is just dual realities. This is why at the beginning I said I just don't know what it's going to mean for his nomination because you had compelling things on all sides that really resonate with the people who are already wired to have them resonate with

them. But Ford, I think so many different things, whether it was key emotional moments like talking about being laughed at or the way that she was deferential and collegial. She said at one point, I'm sorry, I'm trained to be collegial. And a lot of women I know said, I know what that's like. I think that if you're talking about wider ripple effects to the voters as a whole and to the country as a whole, I think this morning might have more of that. Yeah. And don't forget, Clarence Thomas got confirmed and then a ton of women were elected. All right. Well, there is so much more to say about what this all means for the country as well as for the midterm, let alone the Supreme Court. We're going to leave this here, though, for now. And we'll be back tomorrow. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover politics. I'm Scott Detrow. I cover Congress. I'm Mara Liason, national political

correspondent. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.