The NPR Politics Podcast - Looking The Other Way Part 2: On Tape & Under Oath

Episode Date: September 7, 2024

What happens when political ambition collides with a #MeToo allegation in the Democratic party?Episode 2 of our two-part investigation.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Autograph Collection Hotels, with over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of hotel brands. Find the unforgettable at AutographCollection.com. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. And we're in your feeds this Saturday with a story from our friends on NPR's Podcast. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. And we're in your feeds this Saturday with a story from our friends on NPR's investigations team. This is part two. If you missed part one, go to the last episode in your feed and take a listen. On our last episode.

If it was just a handshake, like a normal handshake, I probably wouldn't have a problem with that. But it was never just a handshake. Kissing me forcibly on the lips two times. This is something unequivocally that I did not witness. I'm not the only person that this happened to in regards to Rick Jacobs and during his time with the city. There's many others. Last time on the Politics Podcast, you heard about allegations of sexual harassment against Rick Jacobs, at the time top advisor to Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti. Jacobs denied all wrongdoing, calling the allegations, quote, pure fiction. Garcetti,

meanwhile, was a rising star in the Democratic Party. Like some other Democrats, Garcetti made fighting sexual harassment and supporting the Me Too movement part of his political brand. So how would he react when harassment allegations were made against a member of his own inner circle? Did he tell the truth about what he knew and when? And what happens when political ambition collides with the Me Too allegation in the Democratic Party? Support for this podcast and the following message come from the NPR Wine Club, which has generated over $1.75 million to support NPR programming. Whether buying a few bottles or joining the club, you can learn more at nprwineclub.org slash podcast. Must be 21 or older to purchase. Did Eric Garcetti tell the truth about what he knew and when?

It's an important question, not just given Garcetti's current job in the Biden administration as ambassador to India, but it also tells us something about the White House and the National Democratic Party. As party leaders attack Donald Trump over accusations of sexual misconduct, how have they handled accusations in their own ranks? NPR investigative correspondent Tom Dreisbach picks up the story from here. And again, a warning that this episode also contains some curse words, racist language, and descriptions of sexual harassment. When Eric Garcetti decided not to run for president in 2020, he sent a long email to his staff explaining his thinking. On the one hand, he said it was a tough call. I am one of those people who can't not serve, he wrote. But he said one thing made it easier to stay in LA. Quote, I have led a new culture at City Hall that has been recognized as the best in the country. In the summer of 2020,

when LAPD officer Matthew Garza sued the city of Los Angeles and alleged that Rick Jacobs sexually harassed him and that Garcetti witnessed it, that culture at City Hall was about to be exposed. And it started in text group chats. My phone was like, zzz, zzz, zzz. Everyone was texting. This is Susie Emmerling. She was Garcetti's director of communications from 2017 to 2019.

And the whole vibe that day was like, no surprise here. Can't believe it finally happened, but like not surprising at all. Not surprising was a common reaction in and around City Hall. That comes across in text messages we got from the court records. One of Garcetti's top communications staffers wrote, quote, Another woman who worked in L.A. politics texted, It turns out that in and around the Garcetti administration, these kinds of allegations had been a source of office gossip for years. Susie Emmerling says that when she started her job with Garcetti, a couple co-workers took her aside, gave her what she calls a warning.

The themes of the warning were, he'll always win, he's a big bully, and he's also completely inappropriate, and we could get sued any day. Now, suddenly, the city was being sued. And that's when people started talking about how it happened to them, too. One of those people was Naomi Seligman. She had the director of communications job for the Garcetti administration from 2015 to 2017, so just before Suzy Emmerling. And early on in her time at City Hall, she got a sense for why he had this reputation for crass and inappropriate comments.

One of Rick Jacobs' assistants at City Hall at the time was Asian American. And I remember being in the first meeting with Rick's kind of direct staff, and he's just like, China man, where are you? And he would scream China man or China boy down the hall. And I thought, is this like a fever dream?

Like, why is this guy screaming, like racist terms down the hall? And no one flinched. Everyone just kind of sat there. I couldn't really understand it. And then I asked people after. And they were just like, it's just Rick. It's just what Rick does.

And did you think, like, I got to tell someone about this? Who were you going to tell? They were screaming it down the hall. You know, his office was across the hall from the chief of staff, which was also just one office down from the mayor. So he wasn't hiding it. There is no dispute that Jacobs used this term at City Hall. The man that Rick Jacobs referred to this way did not respond to our requests for comment. Naomi Seligman told me she now regrets not speaking up. I assured him more. And it must have been awful for him. And that no one said anything or did anything.

And then Seligman says something happened to her too. It was 2016 when Garcetti gave the state of the city speech. Ladies and gentlemen, the 42nd mayor of the great city of Los Angeles, Eric Garcetti. Basically the president's State of the Union speech, but for the city of LA. You know, it's a very big deal for any city. You work for months on proposals that you're going to talk about and potentially execute. It's a really important moment. And the state of your city, it's not only strong, it's getting stronger every day.

Thank you so very much. Seligman says after all that stressful prep, it all went really well. And then came the next morning. I'm in my office, and Rick just comes barreling in and grabs me and kisses me on the lips, holds me, you know, sort of this bear hug lock and just kisses me on the lips for some kind of uncomfortable period of time.

I mean, I think any kind of time would have been uncomfortable. And then he sort of let go of me and said, congratulations, everyone. Congratulations. And walked out. I mean, it was humiliating. To Seligman, this kiss was not some kind of sexual advance. Rick Jacobs is gay. She thinks it was about asserting some kind of power. She did not file any formal complaint, but she said and later testified that she told the mayor's chief of staff, but the chief of staff did not take action. Seligman testified that she replied, it was just Rick being Rick. She just looked at me like, there's nothing I can do about this. Now, this allegation is heavily disputed. The chief of

staff denied this conversation happened, and some other people in the communications department who were there that day told me they did not see it happen. But a friend of Seligman's on the L.A. Fire Commission testified that Seligman called her, told her about the incident soon after it happened. Regardless, Seligman did not go public at the time. I knew Rick had a lot of donor relationships. He had a lot of relationships with people who ran companies and other kinds of organizations that I probably would not only come into contact with, but may end up working for. And all those things made it harder to speak out? For sure. Still, as the harassment lawsuit against the city of L.A. moved forward, one by one, members of Garcetti's inner circle testified. A press secretary said that she witnessed Jacobs touching a co-worker inappropriately and that Jacobs even sexually harassed her fiancé once at a dinner party. She said Garcetti's staff talked a lot about how Jacobs' behavior was a

problem. The leader of the non-profit Mayor's Fund for LA testified that he had reported Jacobs to the board for treating female employees rudely and worse than men. He said he was fired in retaliation and signed a confidentiality agreement to keep it all quiet. The Mayor's Fund declined to comment to NPR. And Paul Kijewski served as digital director in the mayor's office. He testified about the kind of things he heard from Rick Jacobs at work. Rick would make inappropriate comments

of a variety of natures. Off-color jokes, off-color remarks, those kinds of things. Okay, so sometimes like racially insensitive? Yes. The other voice is one of the attorneys for the LAPD officer suing the city. What about sexually inappropriate? Yes.

Did you ever hear him make jokes that were sexual in nature? Yes. Kozhevsky testified that Jacobs also gave him and other City Hall employees unwanted hugs and massages. So like the hugs you received from Rick Jacobs, would you describe them as tight hugs? Yes, they were tight. Did they make you uncomfortable? Yes. Under questioning from the city's lawyer, Kaczewski testified that he eventually told Jacobs to stop, and that it did.

But Susie Emmerling told me that Rick Jacobs had so much sway with Eric Garcetti, they were friends and allies for close to two decades, that people were often afraid to speak out. And everyone would just say, well, he's always going to win. You're never going to push back against him or any of his behavior and prevail. So you truly don't have a choice but to just accept it. He appeared untouchable to City Hall employees. Very beyond untouchable, yeah. Even with Garcetti's closest advisors, Garcetti's chief of staff testified that when she first heard about the sexual harassment allegations,

she told Garcetti to immediately cut off contact with Jacobs. But for months, Garcetti rejected that advice. So several top City Hall staffers described Rick Jacobs' alleged behavior as essentially an open secret, barely a secret at all. And I should say at this time, the harassment case against Rick Jacobs was just one of several scandals around LA City Hall. One of the people Garcetti appointed as deputy mayor was charged with racketeering, bribery, and wire fraud as part of a major federal corruption investigation. He was convicted on all felony charges this year. But Eric Garcetti insisted that he was completely unaware of any inappropriate behavior of any kind, and he did not put his political ambition on hold. L.A. Mayor Eric

Garcetti will officially be nominated by the President of the United States, Joe Biden, to be the next ambassador to India. But the question of what Eric Garcetti knew and when, by the summer of 2021, that became the focus of the United States Senate, which would decide whether to confirm him as ambassador to India. Mayor Garcetti, I'd like to begin with you because I have read with some concern accusations that one of your advisors engaged in a pattern of sexual harassment while employed for you. This is Senator Jeanne Shaheen. She's a Democrat from New Hampshire. As we all know, India is an ally, the world's biggest democracy, but it is a democracy where the rights of women and sexual assault and sexual harassment against women has been rampant over the years.

And so, she said, the ambassador needed to set an example on that issue. In regards to this specific case, I want to say unequivocally that I never witnessed, nor was it brought to my attention, the behavior that's been alleged. And I also want to assure you, if it had been, I would have immediately taken action to stop that. With those denials, Garcetti's political future was now tied directly to this question of what he knew about these allegations. So was the Biden-Harris White House, which backed Garcetti. And that made it harder to get people around City Hall to talk. Very few people were willing to come forward and talk openly about Jacobs.

I talked about this with Greg Smith. He was one of the attorneys for Matthew Garza. Smith sues the city and county of Los Angeles a lot. It's kind of his thing. He said he recognized how tough it is for people to speak out against their own boss. I know people are concerned about their jobs. You know, I mean, if you're going to say something awful about the mayor who's your employer, you know, your career path is going to be shortened considerably.

I talked to several people who worked for Garcetti around this time. They did not want to talk on the record about such a sensitive topic. They told me how difficult this moment was. Working for Garcetti was pretty much the only job they had in politics. What would happen if the scandal blew up his whole career? Would that blow up theirs too? Smith told me how tough it was to get information from people's text messages, for example, including from a man named Alex Komisar. He got the job of Garcetti's communications director during the course of the lawsuit. And on the day the lawsuit was filed, he was the one who texted,

looks like it's finally happening with Rick. Do you still have that text message? No. Did you delete it? I suppose that I did. Do you know when you deleted it? I don't remember, but I, you know, I regularly delete texts to clear out my phone inbox. So I don't remember. I delete texts with various people frequently. In another deleted text from a couple years earlier, Komisar wrote, got hit on by Rick again. I don't remember sending that text.

Did Rick ever hit upon you? I don't recall. And I'm not sure what definition of quote hitting on we we'd be using. Well, let me ask you, um, are you denying that you wrote this? I'm not denying that I wrote this. I'm just saying that I don't recall writing it. I don't have the text. I don't remember the text. So when it says, let's assume that you did write this, if you said, got hit on by Rick again, what would that mean to you, got hit on? I can't, I have no idea. I can't speculate.

Garza's lawyers accused Komisar of hiding his messages and lying under oath. Komisar told NPR in an email that his testimony was truthful and that Jacobs did not harass him. He still works as a personal spokesperson for Garcetti. But former city employees who spoke out about Jacobs said they faced backlash, like Susie Emmerling and Naomi Seligman. Emmerling said that just before she was set to testify, she was driving on the freeway,

and she got a call from a lawyer who worked in the mayor's office, someone she considered a friend. So I was just trying to catch up as a friend, and he said, listen, I have a lot of questions about what you and Naomi have been doing, and I'm not going to be in your deposition, but if I was, I would tear you to shreds. I would tear you to fucking shreds. And I was like, it sounds like you're upset with me because I'm willing to tell the truth. And he said something like, I'm upset with you because

you're trying to create a distraction while we're trying to serve the people of this city. She testified about this and said she believed it was an attempt to intimidate her. This lawyer, his name is Carlos Singer, said in a statement at the time that, quote, there was absolutely no intimidation. He said he was saddened to hear Emmerling interpret it that way. Meanwhile, Garcetti's strategic advisor called Naomi Seligman a liar in an article. In that same piece, said the Garcetti administration, quote, all but served up Naomi Seligman, and Matthew Garza for that matter, on a platter to the LA Times. It attacked both of their credibility.

The line suggests that the administration spread negative information about people who complained about harassment to reporters. And it was gutting. It was terrible. It was really terrible. Garcetti said in an email that he had no involvement in that story, even though several people who worked for him were quoted on the record. Garcetti told us he encouraged all his employees to, quote, tell their truth during the lawsuit.

Seligman told me she does not buy Garcetti's explanation. She said the culture under his leadership was all about loyalty. You were either loyal or you were not. You either towed the line or you didn't. There was no in-between. The city's attorney described Naomi Seligman and Susie Emmerling as disgruntled former employees. They suggested that LAPD officer Matthew Garza was motivated by money, not genuine suffering

from the allegations, or possibly because the police union was upset with Garcetti, or possibly homophobia. As the leader of Los Angeles, Eric Garcetti had said, stop dismissing locker room talk. But the Los Angeles City's attorney asked Garza if that's not exactly what Rick Jacobs' comments were. Would you describe it as locker room talk? No. How are Rick's comments about gay sex any different than men such as yourself having comments about women in the locker room. Because all the seven years of interaction that I had with him and his propensity to touch me and make comments towards me, I felt that, you know, those comments are inappropriate. For me, that's completely different from any type of locker room talk that I've ever been around.

I've been reporting on harassment and retaliation allegations in Democratic politics and how leaders respond for the last three years. And this dynamic has been a theme, a kind of us-versus-them mentality can set in when politicians are faced with these claims. Take, for example, Andrew Cuomo, the former New York governor. When he was accused of sexual harassment by a former staffer, his team shared negative information from a human resources file about one of the accusers in the press. That's according to an investigation by the New York attorney general.

That investigation also found that Cuomo illegally retaliated. Cuomo denies wrongdoing. Every time, in my experience a woman has brought up a complaint about sexual harassment, the answer has always been, this is a distraction. This is Julie Roginski. She's worked in democratic politics and media for years. We have huge things to worry about. There are millions of people who are depending on the outcome of this campaign or this officeholder's success. Why are you bringing this up? Don't you understand what you're doing to set back the cause?

Roginski actually went public herself with accusations that she was harassed by the CEO of Fox News, Roger Ailes. Ailes died in 2017. She co-founded an anti-harassment group called Lift Our Voices. So she's seen this dynamic firsthand and also heard it from the women she's worked with, how the instinct of politicians can be to hit back, like in a campaign against a political opponent. Look, I think people in politics generally are fighters so that if somebody comes at you, you're going to fight back. I think very often politicians work in a cocoon where they're yes to death, especially if they're successful. So often that people are afraid to say no to them and that when somebody brings unpleasant news to them, they haven't heard unpleasant news in so long that they don't want to hear it. We know that Eric Garcetti was aware of this dynamic too. In an email to some of his close

advisors in 2019 that we obtained, he wrote, I am in a profession that once elected reminds you of your brilliance every day, at least if you mostly listen to your staff, fans, and supporters. He went on, I've watched a lot of people either become or reveal themselves as an egoist or a narcissist as elected officials. But he said with the help of his top advisors, he was different. Of course, some of the most important testimony from the case came from one prominent former City Hall staffer that we haven't heard from yet. The former executive vice mayor, top Garcetti advisor, Rick Jacobs himself. On March 26, 2021, to begin the deposition of Richard D. Jacobs in the matter of Garza versus City of Los Angeles.

This deposition was taken over video conference. The tape has never been made public before. Jacobs testified that when the lawsuit was filed by Matthew Garza, the LAPD officer, he was surprised. Can you tell me why you were surprised? Because I had never done anything that constituted sexual harassment, and nobody had ever raised any question. It turns out he actually had gotten tipped off that a lawsuit was coming about a month before it happened. And the person that tipped him off was actually Eric Garcetti's dad, Gil Garcetti, the former L.A. County District Attorney. And did Gil Garza call you?

Yes. And tell me what you recall him saying. I recall him saying that he had heard that Matt Garza was contemplating filing a lawsuit. I asked Greg Smith, Garza's attorney, about this. So they had about a month to prepare for what was about to come. So they had plenty of time to talk to people and get their ducks in order for a response. In other words, they could get their story straight, in a way. Correct. Yes.

Greg Smith led the deposition of Rick Jacobs. He started ticking through the allegations. What about the complaints from employees at the Courage campaign? Did anybody ever complain that you hugged them, that you were kissing men on the lips, that you were making vulgar comments of sexual nature? Not to my knowledge. Okay.

He was asked about whether he kissed a Courage campaign employee without consent. I don't recall doing so, not without his consent. He called Yashar Ali's story unsubstantiated. But separately, Jacobs told investigators for the city that he did kiss Yashar Ali, and it was a, quote, cutesy little game between them. Ali told me that Jacobs' response was absurd and wrong. When it came to his time at City Hall, Jacobs denied doing anything inappropriate with Matt Garza. He said if they hugged, it was consensual.

And he denied ever telling Garza that he was handsome, but said he might have said, looking good. Did you ever squeeze Garza's biceps with your hands? Not with my hand. Did you ever squeeze his biceps with your hands? Not with my hands. Did you ever squeeze his biceps with anything, any part of your body? Well, I've shaken hands with people. I have a very firm handshake. And sometimes people will grab my bicep and say, you know, you've been working out. And I could have done something like that with Matt. Jacobs denied several of the specific sexual comments Garza alleged. He denied making any comment about, to paraphrase, effing over donors. But Jacobs testified that he did sometimes make off-color jokes at work.

And he was asked if he made those comments in front of the LAPD protective detail. Have you ever made jokes of a sexual nature in front of anybody from the detail? Oh, it is possible. Have you ever done it in front of the mayor as well? I don't recall. Okay. And when he was asked if he used a racist term for his Asian American assistant,

he testified, yes. It's a terrible word. It's a really terrible, terrible word. And I've apologized to him and I should never have said it. And he's, I'm humbled to say, accepted my apology and we remain friends. We have not been able to confirm whether this former employee agrees that he accepted Jacob's apology. And then there's a photo.

All right, so Exhibit 14. This is one of the key pieces of evidence in the case. So let me take a moment to describe it. It was taken when Garcetti and Jacobs and other city staffers were at a meeting of the U.S. Conference of Mayors in Miami. There are six people standing next to each other in the photo. Garcetti's in the middle. He's got a big smile and two thumbs up.

Jacobs is on the far left side. He's right next to a guy who's a lobbyist for private businesses that work with the city. Jacobs is holding out his right hand, fingers outstretched, in front of the lobbyist's crotch. Garcetti is on the other side of that lobbyist. He's looking forward, so the photo does not show him reacting to that gesture. The lawyer for Matthew Garza asked Jacobs what was happening. And, um, what were you doing? Making a really stupid joke. The deposition then moved on.

The man who was on the receiving end of this gesture, the lobbyist standing in between Jacobs and Garcetti, he has not spoken publicly, and he's wanted to keep his name out of the press. But he did testify in this case. He said that he first saw the photo a day or two after it was taken, and it was upsetting, embarrassing. He thought Rick Jacobs should be ashamed. Naomi Seligman says that photo also tells you something about the dynamic between Jacobs and Garcetti. Rick felt so comfortable displaying that kind of behavior in front of Eric Garcetti that he put his hand over a man's penis in a photo with Eric Garcetti inches from him. That shows how comfortable Jacobs was.

That there wouldn't be an issue if they captured that. They memorialized that photo. The city of Los Angeles did not want Eric Garcetti to testify in this case. The city's attorneys went to court to try to block him from having to testify. So what you're about to hear may have never happened, if not for the judge, who ordered him to sit for the deposition. Good morning, we are now on the record.

Like we said, this audio has never been made public before. And it's not something you see every day. An elected official testifying about sexual harassment allegations in their own office, under oath. You're under oath, and even though you're the mayor of Los Angeles, penalty of perjury does attach to your testimony today. You understand that? Of course. The lawyer for Matthew Garza walked Garcetti through his friendship and working relationship with Rick

Jacobs, which went all the way back to 2003. But by this point, 2021, things had changed. Do you agree that Rick Jacobs is a good friend of yours? You're asking in the present tense? Well, I can ask you. He certainly has been, yes. He can qualify. He certainly, yes, Rick Jacobs has been a good friend. And are you still good friends with him?

Right now, we haven't talked in months. Most good friends, I'm not going to qualify haven't talked in months. Most good friends. I'm not going to qualify what we are or not. We're not in communications. We're not working together. And he's not a senior advisor to me, nor doing any work with me. Okay. Garcetti said he was shocked by the lawsuit. What were you shocked about? I mean, it came out of thin air. The accusations, certainly accusations about the untruths about myself and what I was accused of witnessing or doing or not doing. The entire thing, you know, it made me sad and it shocked me.

Garcetti told NPR that he didn't recall seeing Rick Jacobs kiss anybody, aside from, quote, social kisses on the cheek. But he told a somewhat different story in his deposition. He testified that he did see Rick Jacobs hug and kiss people on the lips at social events as a greeting, and he always thought it was consensual. I think he might have been receiving it as much as somebody giving it. Okay. Separately, Garcetti told investigators for the city that he thought the physical affection was appropriate because Jacobs is gay and Jewish and that Jews are a, quote, hugging kind of people.

One by one, Garcetti was asked about Matthew Garza's allegations. And where Jacobs was often equivocal, saying, I don't recall or I don't think so, Garcetti was more definitive. Did you ever witness Jacobs hug Garza? Not hug, no. Did you ever hear him say, you're so handsome, you look good, have you been working out? No, I did not. Garcetti testified that he never heard Jacobs use a racist term at work,

and that no one reported it to him. And as for the photo with Rick Jacobs putting his hand in front of a lobbyist's crotch directly next to him. So is it your testimony that you did not see this occur? Absolutely. The photo circulated among City Hall for years. People talked about it at work happy hours. But Garcetti testified no one told him.

Do you find this photo and Mr. Jacobs doing offensive? I've stated on the record, well, not knowing the context of the photo or any of the detail, how quick, how long it was there, etc., whether it was a gesture or not, I've stated on the record that I find at least what was captured here offensive, yes. Garcetti told NPR in a statement that any suggestion that this meant Jacobs was willing to make offensive jokes in his presence was, quote, inaccurate. But by being definitive in his deposition, Garcetti put his credibility up against former members of his own staff and other witnesses. And multiple people, in addition to Matthew Garza, directly

contradicted some of Garcetti's answers. Take, for example, this exchange. Did Jacobs tell jokes very often? I can recall him laughing at jokes, but I can't recall him telling a joke, no. Did he ever tell any jokes dealing with men's body parts that you recall? In my presence, no. And you would have never laughed at anything? If you never heard it, you never laughed, right? I would have. Not only did I not laugh,

I did not hear it, I did not laugh. Had I heard it, I would not have laughed and I would have taken action. Okay. I showed this clip to Yashar Ali in the studio. Your head is in your hand. I'm in shock because even more than the inappropriate physical behavior, you can't know Rick without knowing that he's constantly making jokes about everything. Garcetti told NPR he stands by his testimony. Susie Emmerling, meanwhile, said she remembers Rick Jacobs specifically telling sexual jokes. We told a joke once about snorting cocaine off a man's penis.

In front of the mayor? Yes. Do you remember what Garcetti did? I think we all laughed. That was his brand of humor. Garcetti said in his statement to NPR, quote, Absolutely not. This didn't happen. I can say with certainty that I would remember a grotesque joke like that, and there's simply no world in which I would allow that kind of a comment in a professional setting.

Do you think the mayor's lying? Absolutely. And then Garcetti was asked if he was ever worried that Rick Jacobs' behavior was a problem. Other people had testified that they had heard Garcetti worry out loud about it, like Officer Matthew Garza. The mayor and his wife had a conversation in the car about Rick Jacobs' inappropriate behavior.

I believe they used the wording, it was going to eventually bite them in the ass. The mayor's wife denied under oath ever having that conversation or having any of those concerns. A man named Jeremy Bernard ran the non-profit mayor's fund at City Hall. He told me and also testified that Garcetti had said something similar to him. He was kind of jokingly talking about Rick's relationship with personnel at City Hall. I think I was in his office or in the meeting room next to his office

and he made some joke. I can't believe we were never sued when Rick worked at City Hall. And so Garcetti was asked. Have you ever said to anybody, I can't believe Rick worked down at City Hall and that we got through it without a lawsuit? No, I've never said that to anybody, publicly or privately. And were you ever concerned that while Rick Jacobs worked at City Hall, that he might cause a lawsuit somehow? No, I was not. Does that match your memory? Not at all. Rick Jacobs worked at City Hall that he might cause a lawsuit somehow.

No, I was not. Does that match your memory? Not at all. I showed Garcetti's testimony to Jeremy Bernard. I'm surprised that he denied it. I heard it, and I heard him say it numerous times. Do you think he was lying, based on everything you've seen? You know, I find it hard to believe that he doesn't remember it.

Garcetti said in a statement to NPR, quote, I never said that. I can't speak to Mr. Bernard's testimony. Another person watched all of Garcetti's testimony, Matthew Garza. As the plaintiff in this lawsuit, he got to sit in on depositions. And he was asked in his own deposition about that experience. And would you agree the mayor denied witnessing any inappropriate touching of you by Rick Jacobs? The mayor denied everything, yes. Okay. Is it your view that the mayor's lying? Yes. As the depositions in the Garza case moved forward, Garcetti

stayed on as mayor of Los Angeles and at the same time, nominated to become ambassador to India. A report commissioned by the city of Los Angeles cleared both Garcetti and Jacobs of any wrongdoing. But many Senate Republicans and some Democrats were skeptical. These men and women allege that Rick Jacobs engaged in inappropriate physical conduct without their consent.

Republican Senator Chuck Grassley released the results of his own investigation after speaking with witnesses from in and around the Garcetti administration. They allege that Rick Jacobs made crude sexual remarks and gestures towards staff and others. They allege that he made blatantly racist remarks towards Asians and other minorities. The Biden-Harris White House fully embraced Garcetti's version of events. A spokesperson described the Republicans' report as a, quote, partisan hit job with debunked allegations, even though most of the witnesses were Democrats. I asked the White House what specific allegations they considered debunked, and they did not answer. They also did not answer why they backed Garcetti,

despite the evidence, or what the story says about their approach to sexual harassment. And in the end, Garcetti's nomination stalled for almost two years. Garcetti's allies put pressure on Congress. Politico reported that at one point, they told a Democratic senator, Arizona's Mark Kelly, that if he voted against Garcetti, he could lose access to fundraisers. Senator Kelly said he would not be intimidated. He was a no vote. Garcetti's parents bet more than $100,000 on a lobbying firm to try to convince senators to vote for their son. And ultimately, and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties, discharge the duties of the office upon, of the office upon, which I am about to enter office upon which I am about to enter. So help me God. Congratulations.

Thank you so much. Mr. Ambassador. Garcetti lost the vote of three Democrats, but still won confirmation. In the political press, the confirmation was seen as a sign that the White House had weathered the storm and Garcetti still had a political future. The people who spoke out, meanwhile, said they're

still living with the consequences. I know I've lost out on certain job opportunities because of this. I lost friends. Again, here's Susie Emmerling, former Garcetti communications director. I feel like Eric Garcetti left a lot of damage in his wake. That's the visual image I have of it. Like he's off as an ambassador in a pretty important post. And there are a lot of lives and people he left behind him that have been hurt because of his inability to own his responsibility in this situation.

For Naomi Seligman, it goes beyond the specifics of this case. What do you think it says about what happens when the Me Too movement and Me Too allegations conflict with politics in the Democratic Party. Oh, politics wins. Power wins. For some Democrats I've talked to about this the last few years, this is something they say they've witnessed again and again. Democratic leaders who say they support the MeToo movement but don't actually live their values.

It's not hard to find examples. The anti-harassment group Time's Up formed after allegations against Harvey Weinstein, himself a major Democratic donor. But when harassment allegations came for Governor Andrew Cuomo, the group's leaders helped Cuomo, not the accuser, and strategized on how he should respond. That led to resignations and firings and a complete overhaul of Time's Up. For these Democrats I've talked to, the issue isn't that they think there's a unique problem in the party.

After all, the leader of the Republicans, former President Donald Trump, has been found liable for sexual abuse in court. But Democrats have made believing and supporting sexual harassment victims part of the party's identity. If you're going to talk the talk, you have to walk the walk. And way too often, we as Democrats talk a very good game about these issues, about supporting survivors.

And yet when it comes to us personally, we don't do what it takes to support them. Here's Julie Roginski again, the Democratic strategist. These officeholders need to know that if they protect predators of expensive survivors, that they don't belong in office. And that they will either lose elections, or they will not be promoted to their next job as ambassador or cabinet officer or be able to run for president or whatever other ambition they have. And yet, we're still not quite there. Back in L.A., after Garcetti got his ambassadorship, the case brought by Matthew Garza resulted in a settlement. The city agreed to pay him $1.8 million to resolve the case, but did not admit wrongdoing.

Garza now works for the Union for LAPD Officers. He declined to talk to us because he said he and his family just want to move on. Rick Jacobs laid low for a while, but he's working again as a well-paid political consultant and lobbyist. I'm Rick Jacobs, speaking today on behalf of 140,000 members of the Western States Council, Regional Council of Carpenters. He's gone to events with the current LA Mayor, Karen Bass, and appeared in a smiling photo with a member of the city council. We requested an interview with him for this story months ago, and when he didn't respond, I called him. After I identified myself

on the phone, he said, oh, and immediately hung up. He did not respond to subsequent messages. We also contacted Eric Garcetti. He declined an interview request, but he did answer questions over email. I asked him about the criticism that this case represents another example of Democrats failing to take harassment allegations seriously. He wrote back, I think that statement is silly. He said, I have personally supported victims of harassment my entire life and will continue to do so until the day I die.

He wrote that the allegations against Rick Jacobs and himself came out as part of a, quote, campaign to damage my political career, and a lawsuit that he suggests was meritless. He said he was surprised the case settled for $1.8 million. And even though the case split apart his staff and revealed painful secrets, he said he thought it should have gone on.

He told me, I wish it had gone to trial. This episode was reported by Tom Dreisbach. It was produced by Monica Estatieva with help from Casey Morrell. It was edited by Barry Hardiman and Bob Little with help from Christian of Calamer. Micah Ratner provided legal support. Music courtesy of Blue Dot Sessions and Universal Production Music. Special thanks to Claudia Peschuta, Libby Denkman, and Alyssa Walker. The executive producer of the Politics Podcast is Muthoni Matori. We'll be back in your feed Monday with the latest news. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. And thanks for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.