The NPR Politics Podcast - Mike Pence, Chris Christie Are Running — Can They Topple The Don?

Episode Date: June 7, 2023

Former vice president Mike Pence and former New Jersey governor Chris Christie were both early, key allies of Donald Trump in the 2016 presidential campaign. Now, they are both trying to end his political career and claim the GOP presidential nomination for themselves.This episode: White House correspondent Tamara Keith, political correspondent Kelsey Snell, and national political correspondent Mara Liasson.The podcast is produced by Elena Moore and Casey Morell. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Unlock access to this and other bonus content by supporting The NPR Politics Podcast+. Sign up via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hi, this is Stephanie and my three-month-old daughter, Nina. We're spending the day in Detroit with our friends for Nina's first trip to the Detroit Zoo. This podcast was recorded at... Oh, I'm just listening to the baby. 12.01 p.m. Eastern Time on Wednesday, the 7th of June. Things may have changed by the time you hear it, but we'll still be very fussy from teething. Okay, here's the show. We've all been there. Oh, that is my current life right now. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Kelsey Snell in Des Moines, Iowa, at the Mike Pence for President kickoff event. And I'm Mara Liason, national political correspondent.

The Republican presidential primary field has grown again, with three new candidates jumping in this week. Former Vice President Mike Pence. That's why today, before God and my family, I'm announcing I'm running for president of the United States. Former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie. That I intend to seek the Republican nomination for president of the United States in 2024, and I want your support. And North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum.

Today, America's facing new challenges, and how we respond will define our future. We need new leadership for our changing economy. For those trying to keep count, I believe the field is up to nine or maybe 10, depending on how you count it, which is enough to just about bust out of a minibus. So Kelsey, let's start with the man that you're in Iowa to see, Mike Pence, the former vice president. How is he framing his campaign? Well, he put out a video earlier today kind of as his introduction, his big announcement, ahead of this big announcement that I'm here to attend.

And in the video, he said that President Joe Biden and the radical left have weakened America at home and abroad. And he's kind of sticking to that message, this idea that Democrats are weakening the country, a very, very traditional Republican message that's frankly kind of sounds a lot like 2016 Republicans, not entirely like current year Republicans. That's the thing that I thought was most interesting about this, Kelsey. At the Roast and Ride event, which is another one of these great Iowa political things, he talked about how the siren song of populism has unmoored the timeless conservative principles. He's like the unabashed retro candidate representing the Republican Party of yore that doesn't exist anymore. Yeah, it's really interesting. Isn't his logo also sort of retro font? It is, you know, and I'm sitting here, I should say I'm out in the hallway right outside of the event where he is going to be announcing pretty shortly here.

And it really does feel like going back to traditional politics, traditional events, the way that these things used to roll out. Not like what we saw from, say, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis with a whole big Twitter technology debacle. What is not traditional about this is that Mike Pence is a former vice president running against his president, against the man who was at the top of the ticket. Without actually mentioning him very often by name. It was very interesting in that video I was talking about. Pence talked about America needing a leader and referencing Lincoln and the appeals who are better angels of our nature. So this is a very not Trumpy conversation.

But how does he expect to win or is he just running for his place in the history books? I think that that is the open question that I'm hoping to get a little bit more of an answer to from this event and from the events that go forward, because really right now, I don't really understand what the path is. I don't understand even what the path to the debate stage is. I think he is running in a lane that is, as you say, this traditional lane. He is running on restricting abortion access to the greatest extent possible. He is making that evangelical Christian appeal, which is something that would work in a state like Iowa. Yeah, and he does have a lot of his message focused around that evangelical background

that made him so appealing to Trump in 2016 when he was looking for a running mate. He does speak to that part of the party that Trumpism has not traditionally spoken to, though I will say we saw throughout their administration that evangelical voters didn't seem to really worry too much about the distasteful parts of Trump's background. They were more interested in his policies. Let's move on to Chris Christie. He made his announcement yesterday. The former New Jersey governor with no small amount of self-deprecating humor. He wants to take on Trump more directly than the rest of the field. Calls Trump a loser, says he didn't get done the things that he promised. Well, let me be clear in case I have

not been already. The person I am talking about who is obsessed with the mirror, who never admits a mistake, who never admits a fault, and who always finds someone else and something else to blame for whatever goes wrong, but finds every reason to take credit for anything that goes right, is Donald Trump. So it sounds like he's saying the emperor has no clothes, but is he credible in saying that? Is he able to deliver that message? Sure, because he's the only one willing to do it in such an unvarnished way. I mean, he called Trump a lonely, self-consumed, self-serving mirror hog. I mean, this is

catnip for the media, I think. I don't know if he can get onto the debate stage, but I think he's going to be throwing one incredible zinger after the other while all the rest of them don't even want to mention the name Donald Trump. You know, they just talk about him very obliquely. And I think he has one purpose, which is to stop Trump. He's like a heat-seeking missile. He has the personality and the kind of political brand to do it. And we'll see how much damage he can actually inflict. And I think there's also something to be said for using that platform to draw attention to liabilities that already exist for Trump, regardless of whether people necessarily trust Christie as a messenger.

If somebody is doing that job of drawing the attention within the Republican field, well, then that may be his purpose altogether. Christie is a fascinating character to me because he ran in 2016. His stock was arguably a lot higher back then within Republican circles. He then drops out pretty early on and endorses Trump in this sort of shocking move. And then he stuck with him. Heck, he got COVID during debate prep at the White House in 2020. He stuck with him right through to election night 2020 when Trump lied and said that he had won. And now he's out to destroy the man who he spent a lot of time trying to curry favor with. You know, negative partisanship is the most powerful motivator for voters today. You go

into the booth and vote for someone not because you're for them, but because you're trying to stop someone else. And I think that's what Christie is counting on. He doesn't think people are going to make an evaluation of whether he's been two-faced, catering to Trump at one point and then running against him at another. He just wants to be a vehicle for people who want to stop Trump, and he's going to be a very colorful, incendiary vehicle to do that. All right, let's turn to Doug Burgum. This is a long shot bid because he doesn't have national name recognition like some of the other candidates, but he is a governor. He's a billionaire and the governor of North Dakota. Mara, what does his entry mean? I think his entry means that no one has consolidated the

Trump alternative lane. It looks like there's room for lots of candidates because no one has emerged other than Trump, who's the clear front runner, no one has emerged as the obvious alternative to him. That's what Ron DeSantis was hoping he'd be. He hasn't been able to consolidate that. And just mathematically, the more candidates that get in, the easier it is for Trump to win because he has a bunch of candidates splitting the anti-Trump vote. And you can win these winner-take-all Republican primaries with 35%, 40% of the vote, which is pretty much how we won in 2016. And the more candidates that get in, the easier it is for Donald Trump to win.

All right, we are going to take a quick break. And when we get back, one place they could tear each other apart, the debate stage. And we're back. And let's talk about debates. The first one is set for the end of August in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. And the Republican National Committee is now out with the rules of the road for how to qualify. So here they are. Candidates have to poll at least 1% in three national polls, or two national polls and one early state poll. Basically, they got to be at 1%. And these polls need to be fairly legit, independent polls. They also need at least 40,000 individual donors in at least 20 states. And then this one, this is big, they have to agree to share their data

with the RNC, and they have to sign a pledge agreeing to support the eventual party nominee. And I gotta say, for some explicitly anti-Trump candidates, like a Chris Christie, are they going to be able to sign that pledge? What about Trump? Is he going to be able to sign that pledge? Yeah, that was just what I was going to ask. And you know, the one thing about this that seems like the hardest, aside from that one, is the 1% in three national polls. That seems like it would be quite difficult, a bar to meet for many of the candidates that we have seen jump in. Right. So that's my question. Are they going to be able to show enough of a pulse to get on the stage or or will it not be nine people on stage? I mean, this is another example of the many ways that this process is set up to be a little bit more kind to Trump, who is already at polling well past most of these other candidates.

Well, I mean, in some polls, he's at 50%. And don't forget, Trump has the advantages of being an incumbent and an insurgent all at the same time. His loyalists control many more state parties, and they've changed the rules in his favor. And he's running a better campaign than he did in 2016. It is June, and there's a whole lot of campaign left, and there's a lot lot of campaign left and

there's a lot that could change for the way Trump is feeling, particularly if some of these legal questions start to become real for him. Right. If indictments come down or other problems emerge. Let's go to the big question, the one that looms over all of the debates about debates that have been had over time, which is, will Trump show up? Because in 2015, 2016, there were times where he was like, oh, I'm not going to show up. No, no, no, I'm going to have my own event over here. So will he show up? Or would coming to a debate just make him look small? Like he's he's still claiming to be president of the United States in some circles. Does he want to stand on stage with a bunch of people who are polling at two percent?

You know, this is such an interesting question. I have asked this to a lot of Republicans and some of them say, well, he wouldn't want to elevate his opponents. Why would he do that? And then others say, are you kidding? Trump lives to dominate. And that's what he does on that stage. He's bigger than Ron DeSantis physically, and he seems to delight in cutting him down. And he won't resist a national television audience like this. All right. Well, that's all we've got for today. Kelsey, get ready to go cover that event. And good luck with your reporting. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Kelsey Snell in Iowa. I'm Mara Liason, national political correspondent. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.