The NPR Politics Podcast - Nikki Haley, Feminism & The Modern Republican Party

Episode Date: December 4, 2023

The former South Carolina governor and U.N. ambassador threads the needle while running for president: she says her gender is important to her candidacy, but she does not think it is the main reason why people should vote for her. How does this balance influence Republican politics today? This episode: political correspondents Susan Davis & Sarah McCammon, and national political correspondent Mara Liasson.This episode was edited by Casey Morell. It was produced by Jeongyoon Han. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi.Unlock access to this and other bonus content by supporting The NPR Politics Podcast+. Sign up via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hi, this is Sarah, and I'm at Madison Square Garden to watch the final Kiss show ever. I came here from D.C. to join my oldest brother Witness's favorite band's final performance. This podcast was recorded at 12.12 p.m. on Monday, December 4th. Things may have changed by the time you hear this. Enjoy the show. One thing's for sure, I will be rocking and rolling all night.

You know, I saw some Xers, I know, on social media there, but I didn't know it was the last concert. I don't believe it. There's always a comeback tour. There's always a comeback tour. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. I'm't believe it. There's always a comeback tour. There's always a comeback tour.

Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. I'm Sarah McCammon. I cover the presidential campaign. And I'm Mara Liason, national political correspondent. And before we get to today's conversation, a brief bit of news from the campaign trail. North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum has dropped out of the Republican presidential primary. Mara, he never really seemed to stand a chance in that field. No, and no one ever really knew why he was running except for he was a governor of a state and he had a lot of money. Money will help. We interviewed him for the politics podcast, and I would say tonally he was also a really nice guy, a very

distinctly different personality from the frontrunner. And maybe there wasn't much interest in that either. Yeah, he wasn't a national figure. Nobody knew who he was. And this is a race where Trump is so dominant, it's just hard for minor candidates to get any traction. And you got to give Burgum some credit, right, for staying power. Remember how right before the first debate in Milwaukee, he was injured playing basketball and he still showed up. So it might be what he's best known for in the campaign look back. Well, a narrowing field is a good thing for the Republicans left in the primary

who are trying to beat Donald Trump. The former president remains the undisputed front runner for the nomination, but his rivals need to find new ways to stand out. Nikki Haley, the former U.N. ambassador and governor of South Carolina, is leaning on her gender. As I set out on this new journey, I will simply say this. May the best woman win. Feminism and conservative politics don't always mix. Sarah, you've been reporting on how Nikki Haley is trying to navigate this path. Tell us about it. You know, like you said, Sue, she's trying to stand out.

And this is true of all the candidates in the primary. It started out as a crowded field, less and less so all the time. But everybody's been trying to stand out. And you know what makes Nikki Haley unique? One of the things that makes her unique is she's the only woman in the primary race. She's also a woman of color. And she doesn't hesitate to talk about those things. But she seems to talk about them in a way that feels very tailored to Republican voters. talking about race and we're talking about gender, especially in this political climate where Republican politics have really seemed to reject what they would call identity politics.

Focusing on things like race and gender can actually be a bit of a turnoff to Republican primary voters. So how does she thread that needle? In her announcement speech when she launched her campaign in February, she talked about her parents' immigrant story. And she made clear reference, as we just heard, to being the only woman in the race. But she was careful to let her audience know what she wasn't trying to do. This is not about identity politics. I don't believe in that. And I don't believe in glass ceilings either. I believe in creating a country where anyone can do anything and achieve their own American dream.

And Sue, this is really central to the way Nikki Haley talks about herself. She says, yes, I'm a woman. Yes, I'm a daughter of immigrants. But that doesn't limit me. In fact, it just is something special about me. And the fact that I've succeeded, that I've been a governor, an ambassador to the United Nations, is just more evidence that America is a place where anybody can succeed. So that's how she threads that needle. She talks about her personal story, but she talks about it in a way that Republicans tend to resonate with.

Mara, Nikki Haley is not the first Republican woman to run for president. She's also not the first Republican woman to point to other world leaders like former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher as an example of how they would lead. But that also hasn't been a message that historically has resonated very strongly with Republican primary voters. No, I don't think that's the message she's pushing. I think she is saying, look, I'm different and I stand out because I've, you know, overcome these various obstacles, etc. But I think there is a subtext, and I think Republican voters understand what it is, which is having a woman and or a person of color on the ticket is going to help Republicans win. There are many professional Republicans who

believe that is true, not just because the Democratic side has a woman and a person of color on the ticket, but also because they need to appeal to female voters and voters of color. And they've actually been doing better with voters of color, but they need to do even better if they're going to win. So I think there is that message in there. The interesting thing to me about her poke at the glass ceiling was it wasn't just the concept of a glass ceiling was it wasn't just the concept of a glass ceiling. A glass ceiling is they tell us we can go as far as we want to, but there's a glass

ceiling, you know, that's there. It's not visible all the time because it's glass. That's not all she was saying. Hillary Clinton talked about breaking the glass ceiling. And that's why Nikki Haley has to say she doesn't believe in glass ceiling. Yeah, she doesn't accept that it's there. No, and also that it's something Hillary talked about. And I'm not like her. I am not a feminist like her. I don't believe in glass ceiling. She talked about that. I won't.

There is seems to me such a tension, though, Mara, between what I would call probably Republican elites or campaign strategists or people who think of dream tickets and how to win in November. And the Republican primary base voter, which still tends to lean male, tends to lean white, and tends to lean probably more socially conservative, who might have more socially conservative views about men and women's roles in society. Well, those are two different things. That's why she might not win the nomination. But there are other Republicans who think maybe she should be the vice presidential candidate on the ticket. It's a strategic thing.

And we really hear her, I think, repeatedly throughout this campaign. We've heard her sort of nodding to traditional roles. She talks a lot about being the wife of a military service member. She talks a lot about being a mother. Now, many candidates talk about their spouses and children. That's not unusual. But it's sort of the way she talks about it. And in the same breath, she'll talk about being strong and being feminine. You know, I listened back to this speech she gave last year at the Nixon Library when she was talking about a book she'd written about female leaders. And one of the leaders she quotes and cites a lot is Thatcher, you know, who was known as the Iron Lady. And she said that she thought, you know, being an Iron Lady meant you could be you could still be feminine, you could still be a wife and a mother. And that's

a really important signal for her to send to Republican base voters, especially sort of socially conservative and religiously conservative ones to say, yes, I'm a successful woman, you can feel good about voting for me, but don't worry, I'm still a woman and I still sort of pay homage to these traditional roles. Sarah, this has also led to some memorable moments for Haley. There was the point in the debate where there was the comment about three-inch heels. Businessman Vivek Ramaswamy kind of went after her in what seemed like a really clearly gendered way. Do you want a leader from a different generation who's going to put this country first, or do you want Dick Cheney in

three-inch heels? Haley shot back. Yes, I'd first like to say they're five-inch heels, and I don't wear them unless you can run in them. So she kind of upped the ante on that feminine symbol, and then she kind of pivoted to try to make this almost masculine, strong statement. I wear heels. They're not for a fashion statement. They're for ammunition.

The message is clear. I'm a woman, but I'm a strong woman. I'm strong. And I'll stab you with my shoes? And I'll stab you with my shoes. I'm strong, but I'm still a woman. I'm strong. And I'll stab you with my shoes. And I'll stab you with my shoes. I'm strong, but I'm still a woman. You know, trying to be both. I would just want the record to reflect that I cannot run in five-inch heels, so I respect anyone who would even try.

You know what's so interesting about that? He was poking at her for being a warmonger like Dick Cheney, but he got all wrapped up in fashion. I know. It was such a weird moment, but it feels also very much of this campaign. All right, let's take a quick break and we'll talk more about this when we get back. And we're back. And all of this fits into a broader story about diversity in the Republican Party in that it doesn't have as much diversity as Democrats by their own admission. Former House Speaker Kevin McCarthy said as much just last week to The New York Times. This was a turning point for me.

I go into the State of the Union. And in the State of the Union, one side stands up and the other side stands up. And I just become leader. I'm excited. And President Trump's there. And I look over at the Democrats and they stand up. They look like America. We stand up. We look like the most restrictive country club in America. Mara, to be fair, when he was speaker, Kevin McCarthy did work to recruit more women, more people of color. And the diversity, at least of the House Republican caucus, has marginally improved in the past couple of cycles. Oh, yeah. And so has their track record getting people of color who are voters to vote for them? Sure. And there is some at least polling evidence that more Latinos in particular have suggested support for the Republican Party.

So these things are changing. But the Republican Party still really much is dominated by, at least in representation in political life, by white men. No doubt about it. And that's why a lot of people think they should have a woman or a person of color on the ticket. Nobody seems to think that Nikki Haley will get the nomination, but maybe she'll be number two if Donald Trump is comfortable with that. And like with so many other things, it's a question too of are you trying to appeal to the Republican base, which is still largely older and white? Or are you trying to appeal to swing voters, win over some of those voters of color? I mean, those are two really different calculations.

Has the Republican primary been at a point where you could foresee that Nikki Haley could be considered a running mate for Donald Trump if he wins the nomination? I mean, obviously, there's people like Mike Pence or Chris Christie, or probably even Ron DeSantis, who the bad blood between the two men is so great that I don't think anybody seriously looks at them as potential contenders. And she's also taken some shots at the former president. But I don't know if you have a sense of that's even something that she might be positioning herself for. You know, analyst strategist I've talked to think she probably is. She's an ambitious person.

She always has been. She she didn't get where she is by accident. And, you know, while she says she's running for the nomination, I mean, she has to be aware of where the polls stand, as everybody is. So, you know, would she accept the running mate position? Would Trump offer it to her? Who knows? He did choose her as his U.N. ambassador, but he has made disparaging remarks about her since then. And she seems like she's been very careful about what she says about the former president and her former boss. On the one hand, she said he's sowed

chaos and drama in the party, but she's also said he was the right person in 2016 to lead the party in the country. So she really is trying to have it both ways in many ways. Mara, she has definitely seen improvement, at least in the polls. We don't know what's going to happen in Iowa or New Hampshire or her home state of South Carolina. But it would seem to me that this conversation of could she be on a ticket or be in a second Trump administration might depend on how well she does in some of these early state contests. In other words, you have to prove you have some kind of constituency within the Republican Party to bring something to the ticket. Right. I mean, the question all along in the Republican primary was, would someone emerge as the number one alternative to Trump? And would they emerge

soon enough so that the Republican Party could solve its collective action problem, which means as long as there's a ton of people running against Trump, he can win primary after primary with like 30 percent of the vote. But if they all drop out and coalesce around one Trump alternative, maybe they have a chance to beat him. Well, I think we're getting to the, it's too late for that. But the second question is who will emerge as the main alternative, even if the Republicans don't coalesce around that person and everybody else drops out. We're going to know that pretty soon. I mean, we're going to see how she does in Iowa. We're going to see whether the Koch. I mean, we're going to see how she does in Iowa. We're going to see whether the Koch brothers' endorsement of her with all of their ground game resources and millions and millions of dollars makes a difference. She certainly is the Trump

alternative du jour. And let's not forget, it's not just about the race for VP, but about 2028. And I know we never want to think about that. but we have two parties where the frontrunner is elderly. And I think we're already starting to see candidates on both sides looking ahead to four years from now, if not this contest. And tell me if you disagree, Sarah, but it seems like the crux of the people who support her are part of that. We don't really want Trump to be the president again, part of the Republican Party, like the people that are looking for a Trump alternative. Like the Kochs. Yeah, who might stay home or might not show up to vote. And like, could she bring some of those people out and into the fold if she makes them feel better about voting for Trump again? Yeah. You know, the people I talk to who support Nikki Haley in places like New Hampshire, and they see Haley in that light. She has foreign policy experience. She has executive experience as a governor, of course. And she's kind of poised herself to look like a traditional Republican

in a lot of ways. And I think that is attractive to people and maybe would be comforting to have her on the ticket, if not at the top of it. All right, let's leave it there for today. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. I McCammon I'm Sarah McCammon. I cover the presidential campaign. Mara Liason And I'm Mara Liason, national political correspondent. Susan Davis And thanks for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.