The NPR Politics Podcast - Our Interview With GOP Presidential Hopeful Will Hurd

Episode Date: July 31, 2023

Will Hurd is a 45 year-old former CIA agent who served six years representing western Texas in the House. He told us that he's running because he sees generational challenges facing America's "fragile democracy."This episode: political correspondent Susan Davis, White House correspondent Asma Khalid.The podcast is produced by Elena Moore and Casey Morell. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Unlock access to this and other bonus content by supporting The NPR Politics Podcast+. Sign up via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. And today on the show, we are joined by Republican presidential candidate Will Hurd. Welcome. Thank you for joining us. What's up, everybody? It's great to be on with you all. So for folks who may be unfamiliar with your bio, you are a former CIA agent. For six years, you were a member of the House of Representatives, where you had, I would say, quite a reputation for bipartisanship. And now,

at the age of 45, you want to be president. So why this next step? Look, the reason I'm running is real simple. I think we're faced with a number of generational defining challenges, everything from the Chinese government trying to surpass us as a global superpower. Every American should care about that because that's going to impact our quality of life, our way of life into the future. We have a time where persistent inflation and our economy is going to be impacted and upended by technologies like artificial intelligence. And that's not in 10 years, that's in two or three years. And we have to be prepared for ensuring that artificial intelligence and other technologies like quantum computing, synthetic bio, lead to increased opportunities,

not unemployment. And then we've all seen how our kids in reading math and science have the worst grades in this 21st century. And so these are the issues that we should be addressed. Democracy is fragile. We need people that are working towards it. And as a Republican, I'm sick and tired of losing. We're coming up on 20 years that a Republican has not won a popular vote at the national level. And part of that is we are nominating candidates that are unable to grow the GOP brand into the largest growing groups of voters, women with a college degree in the suburbs, black and brown communities, and people in the age of 35. And I've been lucky to

have some amazing experiences. And my wife is on board with this adventure. And that's why I've decided to get in. And thank God for places like New Hampshire, where a dark horse can, like me, can create and build some momentum. You launched your campaign with a message that might sound familiar to a lot of Americans. And you said, quote, the soul of our country is under attack. It's very reminiscent of Joe Biden making the case in 2020 for why he wanted to be president. What do you mean by that message? What about the soul of the nation is under attack? Our politics have forced and has elevated the lunatic fringes. And these are the folks that are dominating social media. These are

the folks that are dominating cable news. These are the conversations that are dominating the debates we have about the future of our country. And the reason for that is simple. Only 23% of Americans vote in primaries. The other 77% is part of them are like, we're sick and tired of everybody. Everybody are a bunch of morons, and they're not being spoken to about their issues. And so for me, when I talk about the soul of our country, the very foundation of our government is being tacked. We have a lack of trust in all of our institutions by the American public, whether it's federal government, state government, local government, academia, the press, you name it. And so the only way that the United States is going to exist for another 247 years is if we opposite side of the aisle, feels a bit like an artifact from a different era. Many members of Congress do not want that level of engagement with folks on the other side of the aisle. I can't disagree with any of your premise, but here is what I have seen. Folks also know that

we're better together. When you look at all the major pieces of legislation that we know by name, the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, the Clean Water Act, the First Step Act, you can name all of them. They were all done in a very bipartisan way when you had different parties in control of the levers of government. And so people understand that, but here's what happens. The professional political class tell candidates, talk to the likely Republican primary voter or the likely Democratic primary voter. And the likely person is someone who's voted in the last four Democratic primaries or Republican primaries. And nobody talks to this other group of people. And so the lesson that we should have learned from the last two election cycles in 2020, the lesson was very simple.

Don't be a jerk and don't be a socialist. I was going to ask just one quick follow-up there. And that is that, you know, you were saying folks talk to likely voters within their party, but you are running within the Republican primary. And so you've got to talk to likely Republican voters. And it seems thus far that a good chunk of the Republican electorate is very enamored with the former President Donald Trump. He seems to be at this point in time, the favorite within the GOP primary. How do you peel off that support from people who appear to genuinely support what some would say is a rather vindictive political style? So when I, the thing I've learned in the last two years, working with a bunch of venture-backed startups, companies and entrepreneurs that are doing things

differently and upending and disrupting big time legacy players, you got to have product market fit, right? And part of that starts with understanding who your customers are. And when you running for president is not one election, it's 50 separate elections. And when you start drilling down state by state, the actual numbers of Donald Trump support is, is not as overwhelming as some of these national polls. The national polls is a snapshot in time. We've learned that since going back to 2016. And so it's real simple. Trump has a group of voters that are not going to leave him.

Period. Full stop. But there's more people that dislike him. That's why I think it's crazy that some of my opponents in this race are kissing his butt because guess what? You're not going to get his supporters. Being a clone, being a crappy clone when the real thing is Hampshire, who's probably the most popular governor in the United States of America, talks about how there's significantly more people in the Republican Party that dislike Donald Trump than not. And so that's the group of people that have to be motivated. a lot of voters out there where it's a jump ball that if we put forward the right candidate, the GOP in 2024 can have crazy victories up and down the ballot if we had the right candidate. And so, yes, I'm running in a Republican primary. But when you really look at who that Republican primary elected is at mass, there's more people that dislike Donald Trump than like Donald Trump. And then you can bifurcate that electorate even smaller. When you were in Congress, you broke with the party a lot,

but you did not on the issue of Trump's first impeachment. I wonder with the space of time, do you think that was the right vote still? Yeah, absolutely. There's not one vote that I disagree with. And look, I was one of four Republicans. I was one of eight Republicans. I think it was four Republicans that voted for universal background checks. I've supported the DREAM Act to make sure there's a legislative pass for DREAMers. But on the impeachment, it's real simple. My standard for impeachment has always been a violation of the law. When I was running in 2014 in Republican primaries, every candidate forum, there was a

question, are you going to impeach Barack Hussein Obama? And it was like, for what? And that's where I established, and you start thinking about what does impeachment mean? I do not view impeachment as a political tool. And so my standard has always been a violation of the law. And when it came to Donald Trump's phone call with President Zelensky, it did not meet any other criteria for bribery or extortion. Vladimir Zelensky did not know that the aid had been paused. The aid ultimately was given. Do I think that Donald Trump was involved in bungling foreign policy?

Absolutely. And I thought that his decision in that conversation was terrible and not something that I would do. But there was no signs and there's no evidence of extortion or bribery. You left Congress before the second impeachment happened. As we sit here, we are awaiting a likely indictment of criminal charges against Donald Trump for his role in trying to defraud the election and potentially the attack on the Capitol. Do you think you would have voted for that impeachment based on the standard that you're saying that an actual crime had to have been committed? Yes, because the very specific thing of the phone call to the Georgia Secretary of State, asking the Georgia Secretary of State to knowingly violate the law. And then when you look at some of the evidence the January 6th

committee produced about Donald Trump knowing that this election, that he lost the election, when you look at the data and some of the information that came out of the Fox News court case with, I forget the name of the company, I'm drawing a blank on the company. Dominion Voting. Dominion. You know, the fact that everybody in Fox News knew that Donald Trump lost and people knew that. So to me, that meets the requirement of a violation of the law. And just that conversation, which with Brad Rathensberger, would have been enough for me to vote. Let me put a finer point on it.

Do you think Donald Trump himself is a threat to U.S. democracy? Yes. Donald Trump is a threat to national security period full stop, right? And guess who loves all this drama? Guess who loves all this back and forth? Our adversaries.

They're laughing that we're having to potentially have another indictment. They're laughing that we're having to potentially have another indictment. They're laughing that Donald Trump has tons of baggage. And so, yes, he absolutely is. But the best way to be done with Donald Trump once and for all is to beat him in a primary. So Congressman Hurd, you've been talking quite a bit about your appeal to kind of moderate independent voters. So I wanted to ask you about this pitch being put forth by the group No Labels. And for listeners who may not be familiar with No Labels, it's this effort to have a third party moderate candidate, neither Donald Trump, neither Joe Biden. What do you make of the no labels pitch? So can a third party win in the United States? Yes, I think we can. I think that, you know, the example of that is a Macron in France or an AMLO in Mexico. I think that kind of thing could potentially happen. I still haven't come to a conclusion of is a third party in the United States good for outcomes long term? Or does it turn into coalition politics if you have three parties and see some of the problems that we see like happening in which that would ultimately happen. But from a logistical standpoint for a 2024 election, is there going to be enough to get 50% of the vote and not have something go to the House of Representatives if the 270 threshold for the Electoral as it happened. If it goes to the House, guess what? No third-party candidate is going to have anybody vote for them.

So I think partly competition is always a good thing. Who those candidates are matter because ultimately I do not want to see Joe Biden or Donald Trump be the next president of the United States. Seven out of 10 Americans don't want to see Joe Biden. Six out of 10 do not want to see Donald Trump. That's a pretty good bipartisan opposition to that. So if an alternative path is no labels, would you take that nomination? Look, I'm working towards becoming the Republican nominee. And that is my focus and my attention. And I think that is the better route to once and for all, be rid of Donald Trump and to have a Republican Party that has an opportunity to win in general elections. So for me, the idea of thinking through a plan B,

I'm not built that way, especially when I know what my tasks are over the next couple of months. All right, let's take a quick break. And when we get back, we'll talk more about your specific policies. Great. It's part of a long tradition.

Journalists from all over the country descend on the state of Iowa for an event unlike anything anywhere else. There's definitely a lot of campaign deja vu, but people just aren't, they're not in the mood to talk about politics. Why Tamara Keith is taking a break from covering the White House to ride a bike across the state of Iowa and eat a lot of pie. It is the only 500 mile bike ride where you can gain weight because you eat so much pie. That's in our latest bonus episode for NPR Politics Plus listeners, whose support helps make this show possible.

And we're back. And Congressman Hurd, let's talk more about some of the specific issues that I think are important to a lot of Republican primary voters, I would say to a lot of voters across the country as a whole. So a little bit of a policy lightning round here. Let's do it. First question. Do you believe that Joe Biden was the lawfully elected president in 2020? Well, the fact that you have to, I'm laughing because the fact that you have to ask that. Yes, Joe Biden won. And let me put a finer point on it. The election was not stolen from Donald

Trump. He lost it. He lost it because he was incapable of growing the GOP brand to those largest groups of voters that we talked about earlier, women in the suburbs, folks in black and brown communities, and people under the age of 35. And the 2020 election was one of the most secure elections in our history. If Donald Trump is the nominee, how do you vote? Well, I'm not voting for Donald Trump. I'm not going to vote for Joe Biden. I'll probably write somebody in, right? But I'm not going to, like, I've made it clear that my issue is not supporting the Republican nominee. My issue is supporting Donald Trump. So shifting gears a bit, let's talk about an issue that has been in public conversation for quite a while over the last few months, and that is abortion. Do look, the area here we should also be talking about,

look, I firmly believe in protecting the life of the mother. Some of these situations where women are having to still carry a fetus that is dead is just, it's criminal in my opinion, and it's wild. Protecting the life of the mother at any time is something that I think is important. But also, if states are restricting this, those states should also be the best, have the best neonatal health, the best maternity healthcare, right? The fact that in some of our, the fact that many black women in the United States, that their death rates during childbirth are equivalent in some of the developing world is absolutely outrageous. So we should be talking about sex education, making sure contraception is available as well, too, if this patchwork system is what's in place. You already referenced that previously you have supported universal background checks. Are there other specific policies that you support that you think might reduce the level of gun violence in the country?

Look, thanks for the question. Look, I'm the only Republican nominee that's talking about gun violence and how we deal with this. If we look last year, 40,000 people died from gun violence. 100,000 people died from fentanyl. It's good that as a frame of reference. But the scary stat is half of our teenagers are worried about getting shot in school. Guns are also now the number one cause of death of children in the United States.

100%. So 25 million kids, and then you add their parents, are worried about this. So the way we solve this problem is everybody can't retreat to their same corners that they've always retreated to for the last 20 years. I believe universal background checks is a simple one. And look, I had an A rating of the NRA when I was in Congress. I'm a gun owner, and responsible gun owners realize you're supposed to buy that rifle, and that's 21. You represented a district along the U.S.-Mexico border.

You also noted you previously have supported the DREAM Act, which is legislation that would provide a path to citizenship for people who are mostly now adults, but were brought to the U.S. as children illegally. And have only known the United States of America as their home. And I imagine you still support the DREAM Act, but do you have a policy position on what you would do as president for the millions of people who are also residing illegally in the U.S.? And would you support a path to citizenship for any combination of those people? Sure. So immigration, thanks for getting my blood pressure up, is one of those issues that's frustrating to me.

It was something I worked on when I was in Congress. And this is one of those issues that Republicans and Democrats would rather use as a political bludgeon against each other than actually solving the problem. You can't solve the problem of all the problem. You can't solve the problem of all the undocumented. You can't solve that unless you've solved about 12 other problems before you get to that. And that means starts with the actual activity at our border right now. The fact that it's a humanitarian crisis, 5.5 million people have come into our country illegally. And you have people right now sleeping on the cement in El Paso. That's not humane. talk to one another about how do we array federal resources and state resources to address the shared humanitarian problem?

And how do we show a united front against the Mexican government to get the Mexican government to do more to stop human traffickers from sending people here illegally? So we have to address that. We can address it by working with the host countries from where the majority of this is coming from to have processing centers to deport more people back? How do we have our foreign aid work to address root causes in these countries like violence, lack of economic opportunity, and extreme poverty? Oh, and by the way, how about streamline legal immigration? So all of these things are interconnected and the things that must be addressed up front before you deal with some of those other trickier issues.

Would you keep the U.S. pledge to cut greenhouse gas emissions by 50 percent by the year 2030, eliminate emissions by 2050? This is a pledge that you see the Democratic administration has made. Would you uphold that commitment? Climate change is real. Right. Man is having an impact on it. I don't have a problem with those goals. And we need to be doing more to secure our future. And one of the things that I always ask folks that are anti and don't think that—and guess what? We can work to pulling carbon out of the air and preventing carbon from going in the air. At the same time, making sure that we're continuing to grow and our economy's growing. Where do you come down on the movement within the Republican Party to do things like restrict access to specialized health care for transgender Americans, to regulate collegiate sports? It's a complicated issue, I realize, but what's your position on it? Well, look, so some of these things, like, I don't think, you know, a parent should be the one making

a decision, but I don't think you should be doing something to a child's body until they're 18, right? But guess what? They need a place to go to the bathroom and the school should be able to figure out how to make that work, right? One of the bills you're talking about was the, what was it called? Is it the Equality Act? The Equality Act, right? So I had a number of parents for transgender kids come in and talk to me. And they're like, my child, when they wake up, does not drink liquids. Because they don't want to have to go to the bathroom during the day.

That's freaking crazy. Okay? And look, I actually believe in local control. And local control means you shouldn't be trying to consolidate power in the executive branch, whether that's the executive branch in the federal government or executive branch in state government. Let these local communities decide what's best for those local communities. I don't think at elite levels you should have someone who was born as a man participating in women's sport at the elite level. But guess what? These entities should be the ones that make these decisions on this.

That's what local control is all about. But at the end of the day, we shouldn't be discriminating against people, right, for any damn reason. And that's one of the things that's frustrating for me. And I always talk about, you know, I wish some of my opponents in the Republican primary was more interested in trying to defeat a war criminal like Vladimir Putin than discriminating against my friends in the LGBTQ community. On that note, Will Hurd, thank you so much for spending the time to talk to us. We really appreciate it. My pleasure. We'll leave it there for today. Our broadcast engineer for this episode is Josephine Neonine. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.