The NPR Politics Podcast - Roundup: Indictments, Shutdowns, And Cats

Episode Date: October 10, 2025

The Justice Department indicted New York Attorney General Letitia James, an outspoken critic of President Trump, this week on allegations of fraud. It comes after the DOJ indicted another Trump critic, former FBI director James Comey, who was arraigned this week on charges alleging he lied to Congress.Then, we get an update on the government shutdown, and talk about a cat's wild ride.This episode: senior White House correspondent Tamara Keith, political correspondent Ashley Lopez, national justice correspondent Carrie Johnson, and congressional reporter Sam Gringlas.This podcast was produced by Casey Morell & Bria Suggs, and edited by Rachel Baye.Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi.Listen to every episode of the NPR Politics Podcast sponsor-free, unlock access to bonus episodes with more from the NPR Politics team, and support public media when you sign up for The NPR Politics Podcast+ at plus.npr.org/politics.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

This message comes from the BBC with their new podcast, The Global Story. With Asma Khalid in D.C. and Tristan Redman in London, the global story brings you daily news from where the world and America meet. Search for the Global Story from BBC podcasts. Hi, we're the Great 8 fan that's Johnstom's middle school in Victoria, Canada. This podcast was recorded at 12.36 p.m. on Friday, October 10th. Things may have changed by the time you hear this, but we still love being in band. Okay, we're here so.

Oh, that sound. Middle school band. Band kids. I played in the drum line in middle school. Yeah, both my brothers were in marching band. I was, like, around all their friends all the time. It was so interesting. All their very dorky friends, I'm sure.

They were fun. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Carrie Johnson. I cover the Justice Department. And I'm Ashley Lopez. I cover politics.

And let's wrap up a wild week in Washington, starting with the indictment of New York Attorney General Letitia James. Carrie, you've been covering this. What is James accused of? Yes, late yesterday, a federal grand jury in Virginia. indicted Tish James on two criminal charges. One is bank fraud. The second is making false statements to a financial institution. The court papers are just five pages long, really short, and they revolve around an application she put in in 2020 to buy a property in coastal Virginia. The DOJ says she promised

the lender it would be a secondary property that she would use for herself, but instead she rented it out and got some allegedly ill-gotten gains, something like $19,000. Tish James put out a video message last night after the indictment. She says these charges are baseless. She says Trump is engaging in a grave violation of our constitutional order. Here's more of what she had to say. This is nothing more than a continuation of the president's desperate weaponization of our justice system. He is forcing federal law enforcement agencies to do his bidding.

all because I did my job as the New York State Attorney General. Huh. I feel like you have used that phrase before recently that a grand jury in Northern Virginia returned an indictment. It's becoming something of a pattern. And that's because not very long ago, a grand jury in Virginia indicted James Comey, the former FBI director. And that case seems to revolve around whether or not he misled Congress about authorizing a media leak many, many years ago. And in both cases, these are people who had run a foul of President Donald Trump for one reason or another over the years. And these are both relatively thin indictments signed by the same prosecutor. Yes. The interesting thing here is that the last several weeks have seen

the career prosecutor in that office who was leading that office this year and getting along very well with his boss, the attorney general, and the deputy attorney general. That person concluded that there was not enough evidence to indict either Jim Comey or Letitia James. And after he came out and told his superiors there wasn't enough evidence, the president grew very dissatisfied, forced him out the job and instead replaced him with a woman named Lindsay Halligan, who had been a personal lawyer for Trump, an insurance lawyer, with no experience at all as a prosecutor. And in these two indictments, she is the only person who has signed them from that U.S. Attorney's Office, which is a strong signal suggesting none of the career lawyers wanted to put their names

on those cases. Ashley, I want to back up slightly here. Why Is James a target for the Justice Department? Simply put, she's a political opponent of Trump's. She campaigned on investigating and potentially prosecuting Trump when she was running for New York Attorney General. If we remember those times, there were a lot of possible cases sort of circulating around Trump. And hers was one that actually got pretty far. She was able to win a civil fraud case, not just against Trump, but against his family real estate business and his sons. And Trump was found liable in that case for fraud and was ordered by a judge. to pay a whopping $355 million in penalties. And now, like, those penalties were thrown out by an appeals court. But if everyone remembers, that whole ordeal was not very fun for Trump. We all remember those long days of hearings in New York. And the focus of those trials was on whether Trump inflates his business and business acumen, which, of course, is like a touchy subject for Trump because, you know, the core

of his political brand is that he's a good businessman. So he's been seething about this for a while. Back in September, he posted something. something on truth social about like a list of people that he had grievances with. And he described them as being all guilty as hell and nothing was being done. And he said that, you know, the fact that there was an action on this was, quote, killing our reputation and credibility. It was focused on people who investigated him or were prominent critics. And I'm just going to read the list of names. It was James Comey, Adam Schiff, the senator from California, and Lettisha James.

And Carrie, it's been about 20 days since that post, and two-thirds of those people have now been indicted. Two-thirds have now been indicted over the objection of career prosecutors in that office, some of whom have quit, others of whom have been fired. Potentially more to come here, Tam, because Mike Davis, a prominent MAGA lawyer with close ties to the White House and the DOJ leadership has said over the last 24 hours, those two cases were just an appetizer. Carrie, I saw a bunch of Davis's social media posts, and Ashley, maybe you could weigh on this too, but there's a celebratory nature of sort of turnabout as fair play or they came for Trump. Now we're coming for you. Yeah. You know, you talk to people close to President Trump, people who help defend him in some of the many investigations he underwent during the period after he left the White House. And they will tell you that the president and his approach to the Justice Department is very different this time around. Trump is very much hardened by the idea that he had to spend so much time and money in courtrooms over the last several years. And since the Supreme Court has made quite clear in its immunity decision that presidents have absolute control over the Justice Department, including investigations and prosecutions, Trump is pushing that to the hilt now.

Yeah. And of course, there are like bigger questions here about whether this is how our justice department or our justice system should be used. I mean, there's some big political questions here. though. Like, this is something that is probably popular among Trump's allies. But, you know, I think this is pretty clear to a good chunk of voters that this isn't about primarily, at least, and not about improper criminal behavior on behalf of these officials. It's clear to most folks that this is about retribution. There's a new Pew Research survey out that this was conducted at the end of September. And it found that majorities of Americans over 60% say that since taking office in January, Trump definitely or probably has improperly used his office. to either, you know, punish people who do things that he doesn't like or say things that he doesn't like, enrich himself or his friends, or encourage federal investigations of his political opponents at 62%. I mean, I don't think that's why people put a president in office. It was pretty clear that Trump had an economic directive when he was elected. So it's a question of like how much this breaks through and eventually matters to voters. But, you know, this isn't what he was elected for. Though he did say, I am your retribution. And Kerry, I want to talk a little bit more about James Comey, the former FBI director. You were in court this week for his arraignment. Yeah, this was really a remarkable scene. I mean, this is a guy who started out as a prosecutor in Virginia in the same office that wound up prosecuting him. He also was the second in command at the Justice Department in the George W. Bush administration. So the idea that he entered this courthouse now as a criminal defendant, was a very jarring thing. The other element that really stood out to me was that, you know, he has a law enforcement family. His daughter, Maureen, had been a prosecutor, a federal prosecutor in New York, bringing some really big cases up there until she was fired. She has filed a lawsuit

against the DOJ seeking her job back. She thinks she was fired because, you know, they want to get back at her father. And Comey's son-in-law had been an assistant U.S. Attorney of Federal. prosecutor in the office that indicted him, he quit the night of the indictment. And so it was a very solemn scene for the family and pretty jarring for people who've been around the justice system for a long time to see that guy in particular seeing the other end of the criminal justice system. Yeah. And Carrie, I mean, I wonder what will you be watching for these cases as these cases worked their way through the courts? I mean, caught a judge, had them off at a pass and just dismiss everything before trial? You know, Ashley, that's really possible. We already know

that Comey and his lawyer, Pat Fitzgerald, a very legendary prosecutor in New York and Chicago over the years who came out of retirement to defend his friend Jim Comey, they plan to file a motion for vindictive or selective prosecution trying to get the case dismissed before trial, arguing that President Trump improperly targeted Comey. And Letitia James may be on the way to filing a similar motion as well, using some of the president's own statements. against the DOJ in court. Those cases are typically very hard to win, and yet there's some evidence there they can work with because Trump has been really vocal about what he wants to see. The other issue that I expect these defendants to raise is the idea that Lindsay Halligan, the woman in charge of that office now, the one who previously had been scrubbing the Smithsonian museums for what the White House called woke ideology, Lindsay Halligan may have been improperly appointed under the law.

And if her appointment was not legally valid, these defendants can argue that both of these indictments should go away on that basis. Because she's the only signature on both of them. Though I wonder, Carrie, that scene at the courthouse that you saw, is that the point, the pain that can be inflicted through lawfare, as it might be called? I've covered a lot of criminal defendants over the years, and I don't want to minimize how emotionally draining this can be for people and how. financially draining it can be for people, even if they wind up winning in court or winning before a jury. So this struggle is real. And I think that President Trump, according to his allies, really felt this deeply himself and maybe wants to engage in some payback now. All right. Carrie, thank you so much for your reporting. Oh, happy to be here.

All right, we're going to take a quick break and we'll have more in a moment. This message comes from rinse, who knows that greatness takes time. So does laundry. So rinse will take your laundry and hand-deliver it to your door expertly cleaned. And you can take the time pursuing your passions. Time once spent sorting and waiting, folding and queuing, now spent challenging and innovating and pushing your way to greatness. So pick up that Irish flute, or those calligraphy pens,

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In the U.S., national security news can feel far away from daily life. Distant wars, murky conflicts, diplomacy behind, closed doors. On our new show, Sources and Methods. NPR reporters on the ground bring you stories of real people, helping you understand why distant events matter here at home. Listen to sources and methods on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back, and NPR congressional reporter Sam Gringless is with us. Hi, Sam. Hey there. And this is your first official visit to the pod as an NPR employee cover. Congress. This is a new job for you. Yes. I'm so excited to be here. I spent the morning chloroxing my new desk, and I feel like I'm all moved in now. Of course, you're covering Congress,

you won't see your desk very often. So you're with us because the government shutdown continues, and lawmakers seem to be at an impasse. So what's the latest from Capitol Hill? So day in, day out, senators are showing up to the chamber to vote on the same pair of resolutions to reopen the government for a short period of time. There's a Republican one. There's a Democratic one. They have voted seven times. And seven times these votes have continued to fail. So it started to feel, I guess, a little like groundhog day around the hill or maybe some kind of weird doom loop. You know, you've got the House and Senate leadership. They're holding press conferences every day. They are saying almost the same thing day in, day out. Reporters are at the point of asking the same questions to

lawmakers every day and lawmakers are giving pretty much the same answers. Things just feel really stuck. And there's this palpable sense of frustration on the hill. You even hear it from some of the lawmakers. A Republican Tom Tillis of North Carolina walked away from a gaggle the other day and I could hear him in the other room say, my God, this has to stop. And it's unclear whether he was talking about all of the reporters asking him the same question or the shutdown itself. Or both. Or both. And also we should just note that the House has not been in regular session since before the shutdown started. Yeah, the House has been out. So leadership has still been palling around trying to keep the blame game going. But most members are not at the Capitol over on the House side. I mean, since we have you here, Tam, what is the White House saying about this?

So the White House has had kind of mixed messages on this, I would say. Yesterday at the cabinet meeting, President Trump was talking about we are going to going to make this as painful as possible. We're going to be firing people. We're going to eliminate democratic programs and things that Democrats like. We are going to make this hurt. And then Vice President J.D. Vance spoke and said, we're trying to make this shutdown as painless as possible. And those seem to be two different messages to me. You know, one thing that really stands out is that at the very beginning, the White House did seem to be really driving a message about the shutdown, blaming Democrats for the shutdown, using old video of Democrats saying how terrible shutdowns are. That was like 10 days ago. And they aren't really pushing that

much of a message anymore. I think in part because they are pushing 12 other messages every day, which is kind of a Trump White House thing to do. But, you know, we're talking about peace in Gaza. the president is planning to drop everything and go to the Middle East leaving Sunday. There are so many things that they are talking about that are not this shutdown, that it can be almost easy to forget that the shutdown is happening. Yeah. I mean, is part of that because they're just not winning? I mean, like, voters started off this whole thing,

blaming them for the shutdown mostly, right? They're taking most of the heat. And that hasn't really changed. And it seems like if history is a guide, it's unlikely to change. Well, I think one of the challenges is they absolutely want to blame Democrats for the shutdown. In theory, they should be able to blame Democrats for the shutdown because it's the Democratic votes that are needed to get this thing over the top. And Democrats have voted for similar bills many times in the past. But because the White House is putting so much focus on we're going to punish federal workers, we don't know, maybe we will pay them, maybe we won't.

Let's try to find a way around the law that says we have to. Like, all of this stuff, they're in some ways taking more ownership of it than they would if they weren't making all of these big threats. So I do want to ask both of you, what are the real world impacts? So I was out reporting in Georgia and Metro Atlanta last week before I got to D.C. I started out at a National Recreation Area where we started to see some of the first impacts of this shutdown. I met this couple that was on day two of a cross-country national parks road trip. They were retired. This was their dream for retirement. And they were going to keep pushing ahead, despite the fact they were disappointed that a lot of the parks services were shut down. But, you know, overall, a lot of people have not really started to feel a lot of the impacts yet. People were telling me, this doesn't really impact my life.

I think a big moment that this will come into play is the longer that this stretches on. I talked to the president of the Atlanta Community Food Bank last week, and he said he is just not sure. sure right now if he's looking at something that is catastrophic for his organization or something that is kind of a short-term pinprick. But he remembered during the last shutdown, which was more than a month, they held these food distribution centers near the airport for TSA employees. And he said hundreds of cars were lining up to get help. And his organization is gearing up for that possibility if this stretches on that long again. Part of my job is I cover the Social Security Administration and I talked to a bunch of field office workers, the people who answer the phones around the country. And they're saying, like, look, this is a non-essential function of the agency that we deal with a lot,

which is something called benefit verification letters. If you've never had to deal with one, like it's something you'll never come across. But basically, it's like income verification for folks. And so they need that for housing vouchers, for fuel assistance. It's getting cold in parts of the country. So they're coming up against a deadline to apply for that particular kind of aid. And so, you know, early on, it's like these very vulnerable populations that are the first to feel things, you know, and I should say this is something that people can do online. But if you're older and don't have access to computers, again, vulnerable populations is sort of the first who need that sort of direct help from the government. They feel that first. But the longer this continues, things like TSA and, you know, flights getting canceled. That's the kind of stuff that usually in the end is a breaking point for not just the populace, but also. politicians. Right. And we've seen some airports have to halt flights or otherwise have

slow down flights because of a shortage of air traffic controllers. Already there's a shortage, but then you add that people aren't getting paid. And, you know, somebody might start to just feel a sniffle and decide not to come into work. I think that one of the pressure points we're looking at Sam. And I think that over on the hill, they're starting to talk about this, is members of the military who are working through this are going to miss a paycheck next week. And members of the military, many of them are living paycheck to paycheck. Yeah, I mean, I know in Georgia there's a big air base near Warner Robbins. And I was talking to some folks there and they're saying, you know, right now, maybe not impacts.

But as soon as that first miss paycheck happens, that's when it could start to be a problem. And something lawmakers are thinking about there were proposals like, hey, should we vote on a funding bill just. to pay the troops. So far, that doesn't seem like it's going to happen. But maybe as this pressure heats up, that could change. Let's talk about the political blame game a little bit more here, because this is the politics podcast. Sam, do you have any sense of where real people are on this? I mean, so much of this has been a blame game, especially in the early days that I was curious, like, how were voters absorbing that if they were absorbing it at all? And for some people, I think the message was really muddled. They didn't know quite who. who to blame for this. Now, of course, there were people who maybe identify as Democrats or identifies Republicans, and they're going to blame who they're predisposed to blame. But I spent some time talking to voters in a corner of Metro Atlanta where people are apt to split their

tickets, maybe voting for one Republican and one Democrat. This will be a key area for Senator John Ossoff, the Democrat who's up for re-election next year. And folks said, you know, they're not really sure if the shutdown will affect their vote or not. It might depend for how it resolves, how long it stretches on. Because as you know, in this crazy news cycle, a shutdown now in September can feel really far away by the time we get to November of 2026. Yeah. So what are you guys watching for as this thing? I think we can start using the term drags on. Yeah. I mean, we'll have to see what, I mean, time determines all in this. We'll have to see what kind of news stories start cropping up? Because again, like, right now it's, it's a smaller population of

vulnerable people who are affected. But the longer this goes on, we're going to be hearing more news stories about, you know, this person missing a paycheck, you know, losing a mortgage, stuff like that. I mean, this could get really ugly depending how long it goes on. And that could be the big political liability and force folks to compromise on stuff. Yeah. I mean, I'm really curious if there is any room for compromise here. The Senate is supposed to be this great deliberative body. And I spent this week asking a lot of senators, does it feel like that right now? And Democratic Senator Raphael Warnock of Georgia told me, I wish we were doing some more deliberating. And there was a bipartisan dinner over Thai food earlier this week, but they were

mostly talking about what happens after the shutdown, not about some elusive off-ramp to reopen the government. So I'm curious if these bear fruit in any way. or we're just going to be in this continued cycle of repeated votes. Though I will say I talked to Senator Tim Cain, Democrat of Virginia, and he told me there's actually some value at in having these repeated votes. Because it brings people to the floor, it gives them a chance to be in the same room and keep talking. But again, senators are headed home for the weekend.

Still no deal. And the shutdown stretching into another week. All right. Well, we are going to take one more quick break. And when we come back, it's time for Can't Let a Cic. go. And we're back. And it's time for Can't Let It Go. That's the part of the pod where we talk about the things from the week that we just can't stop thinking about politics or otherwise. Sam, you go first. My Can't Let It Go this week is Francine the feline. Do you know what I'm talking about?

No. This was a cat that was a resident worker at a Lowe's in Richmond, Virginia, but got lost in September, apparently hitched a ride on a supply truck all the way to a distribution center in North Carolina. They knew from surveillance footage that she ended up in North Carolina, but they couldn't find her, so they were setting out traps. And now she's back at her post. And, you know, there was this one quote from the store manager in the AP article who said we had a bit of a mouse problem in the store. And wow, I like this cat a lot. She's really been a helper around here. And it got me thinking about the Senate booth at the Capitol where I started this week, which I've heard also might have a mouse problem. So managers, if you're listening, Capital Cat.

I mean, we could also use one at the White House. Like a good mousing cat would be pretty helpful. I would love to see cats in every government building. I feel like we have like sort of unfun chaos right now. Cats are fun chaos. That's like the good chaos in that whole block. like that would be that would be a real fun time i'm pretty allergic to cats i will say i can see how this is a bad suggestion but it would be fun for me personally tam what can't you let go of so what i

can't let go of is that very occasionally we still can have nice things and what made me think of this is that dolly parton had to postpone her residency in las Vegas because she said she had some health issues that she needed to deal with. She wasn't going to be able to put on the show that she wanted to be able to put on. And so she needed to postpone it. Then her sister put out on social media, y'all better pray for Dolly, like a call for prayer, which is alarming to all who love Dolly Parton and need her to be around. And then a few days later, she put out like a proof of life video.

I saw that. This was almost my pick. Yeah, yeah. I was in the audience for this video. She's like, I'm not dead yet. Everybody thinks that I am sicker than I am. Do I look sick to you? I'm working hard here. Anyway, I wanted to put everybody's mind at ease, those of you that seem to be real concerned, which I appreciate.

Yeah, I mean, like, I was genuinely worried. I mean, she's turning 80 next year, early next year. So, you know, taking some time off for health, you know, stuff is normal. I thought she looked good, though. She's right. She's looking great. Okay, there was also that deep fake video of her and Reba McIntyre at her deathbed and both then had to put out videos Reba too saying this is not real. Dolly's too young to be on her deathbed.

I don't think Reba would be at my deathbed. Yes, that was the part that got me. She might have come earlier. She might have visited before, but she's not going to be there when I die. I guess that's a request that getting her wishes out there don't need Reba at the very end. Oh my gosh. AI creating extra tasks for people that no one needs. I do, though, really value Dolly Parton explaining that her husband, who died recently,

had been very sick for a long time. She neglected herself to focus on him. And she just has some deferred maintenance. Ashley, what can't you like go of? So, I mean, this is a little like, I'm talking about a law, but I can't let go of this week as a law in California that is solving an issue that has annoyed me to no end, which is it's a law aimed at. Basically, stopping advertisers from pumping up the volume on their ads on streaming services,

I resent having to buy the no ads for everything I watch. So, like, there are some out there that I still get ads. And these things ruin naps like nothing else. It is the worst. And I'm so glad that someone's like, not here. I would like this to be a federal. Wait, are you napping with the TV on or the radio? It happens.

Well, it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen with the radio because there is a law that prevents that sort of from happening on the radio. But streaming services are like this netherworld where they can just like pump up the volume and really, you know, like sound completely different than the rest of the program that you're watching, which really annoys me. And I will say podcasts also do this, some of them. And I'm not a fan. Wakes me up every time. Yeah. You know, I endorse the idea of just like steady levels. Yeah. You know, like don't make me keep turning my volume up and down. Like, ah, the ads came on. I agree.

It does feel a little nanny state, but maybe in this one instance. It is. I will say it definitely is nanny state, but it's just when nanny state does the thing I want everyone to do. I kind of like it. All right, that is all for today. Our executive producer is Mithani Maturi. Our producers are Casey Morel and Brea Suggs. Our editor is Rachel Bay. Special thanks to Krishna Dev Kalimer, Dana Farrington, and Anna Yucanano. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Sam Greenglass. I cover Congress. And I'm Ashley Lopez. I cover politics. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.