The NPR Politics Podcast - Roundup: Trump N.Y. Sentencing Delayed Until After Election

Episode Date: September 6, 2024

It was a busy week in U.S. courtrooms. After being convicted of 34 felonies earlier this year in a New York state trial, former President Donald Trump will have to wait until after the presidential election to find out what punishment he may face. Meanwhile, in a federal courthouse in California, Hunter Biden unexpectedly pleaded guilty to tax charges. And, the Department of Justice returned indictments accusing Russian agents of trying to interfere in the 2024 presidential election through, among other ways, paying right-wing online influencers. This episode: political correspondent Susan Davis, national justice correspondent Carrie Johnson, disinformation correspondent Shannon Bond, and senior political editor & correspondent Domenico Montanaro.The podcast is produced by Jeongyoon Han, Casey Morell and Kelli Wessinger. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Listen to every episode of the NPR Politics Podcast sponsor-free, unlock access to bonus episodes with more from the NPR Politics team, and support public media when you sign up for The NPR Politics Podcast+ at plus.npr.org/politics.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Autograph Collection Hotels, with over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of hotel brands. Find the unforgettable at AutographCollection.com. Hi, this is Chief Master Sergeant William Mercuri, the Command Chief of the 92nd Air Refueling Wing of Fairchild Air Force Base, Washington. I'm getting ready for my final reveille here at the base flagpole, as I will be retiring this afternoon after 29 years in your U.S. Air Force. This podcast was recorded at 1.39 p.m. on Friday, September 6th.

Things may have changed by the time you hear this, and for the first time since I was 18, I have to figure out what to wear tomorrow. Okay, enjoy 6th. Things may have changed by the time you hear this. And for the first time since I was 18, I have to figure out what to wear tomorrow. Okay, enjoy the show. Congratulations on your retirement and awesome use of sound. Yes, and thank you for your service. I hope you enjoy retirement. You have clearly earned it. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. I'm Keri Johnson. I cover the Justice Department. And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent. And it's been a busy week in the courts. Keri, let's start with Donald Trump.

He was facing sentencing this month following his conviction in the New York business fraud case, but the judge in that case just announced a short time ago that he's postponing that until after the election. What was his reasoning? Yeah, the sentencing is now going to take place on November 26, long after people have finished going to the polls. Justice Juan Merchan in New York said the court is fair, impartial, and apolitical, and he is postponing this decision to dispel any idea the court was trying to advantage or create a disadvantage for any political party or any candidate for any office. In other words, he's kicked the can down the road until after the election. But Kerry, Trump's legal team and Trump himself have made it very clear that their strategy in all of these cases against him is to appeal, appeal, delay, delay, delay. And in that regard, this decision seems like another victory for him.

Another victory. Remember, Donald Trump was actually convicted by a jury in New York of 34 charges earlier this year related to those hush money payments to adult film star Stormy Daniels and the way they were accounted for on the books of Trump's company. But the sentencing, the punishment will be for after the election. And, you know, you two know better than I do, but it's hard to say whether being sentenced to a period of incarceration or probation would have helped or hurt Trump politically in this kind of climate. I mean, to that end, though, Domenico, we've talked a lot about the politics of Donald Trump's many legal problems in the past year or more on this podcast.

But one of the things that our own polling and other polling has shown is that while these are dramatic charges and dramatic cases and unprecedented times for a presidential candidate, it hasn't actually really moved the electorate that much. It hasn't. the primary process because he – it played all into this false grievance narrative that he has created for himself that his base of people have bought into. And there were a lot of people who were looking to move on from Trump and the Republican Party around 2022 or so and there was this big discussion about whether or not the kinds of candidates he had endorsed, if that had hurt the Republican Party. They had lost you know really three straight election cycles or not done as well as they could have in three straight election cycles and a lot of republican strategists were pointing the finger at donald trump

and then there's the indictments happened and it seemed to really kind of rally folks back around trump and you know that's where we are again I don't think that it helps him with a general election audience. But I don't think much of anything has helped Donald Trump with a general election audience. Since he's been on the scene, the views of him are very locked in. We've seen him with more than 50% unfavorable rating for about nine years since he came on the political scene. You know, in some ways, this is yet another reminder that as people go to the polls, they're not only going to be deciding who wins the White House, but they're going to be deciding Donald Trump's legal fate. You know, it's hard to imagine even after the election that Trump would get sentenced to a period of incarceration if he wins,

or even when he would serve it if he won. So not only will people be deciding who controls Washington, Trump has left this decision and his strategy of delay has left this decision in many ways in the hands of regular people like us. Meanwhile, Carrie, in a completely separate case, new charges were filed by Special Counsel Jack Smith in the case against Trump related to his actions on and around the January 6th attack on the Capitol. Why was that even necessary? It was necessary because the Supreme Court in a landmark and totally unexpected ruling in July gave Trump and all future presidents some pretty broad immunity from prosecution for core actions they take in the White House. And they're presumed to be immune for official

actions that they carry out inside the White House. And so that raised some big questions about some of the charges against Trump. Prosecutors came back with a new grand jury indictment, a tighter grand jury indictment just in the last week. It's the same four felony counts, but a bunch of stuff is out of the indictment now. Allegations related to Trump's pressuring of the Justice Department to go along with his sham allegations of voter fraud in 2020, for instance, and mentions of what Trump's chief of staff and top lawyers in the White House and other aides may have told Trump about the election in 2020. All those things are gone because the Supreme Court said that presidents

have a lot of power while they're in the White House to have communications and conversations with their aides. So the new indictment is about nine pages shorter than the old one was. But prosecutors say it should survive even that pretty devastating Supreme Court ruling for the Justice Department earlier this year. You know, Trump tried to say that this new indictment was, quote, election interference. But really, this was because of the Supreme Court, as Kerry mentioned, and Jack Smith sort of taking this back and saying, OK, fine, then we will cut out all of the stuff that you say are probably unofficial acts and we'll refile with the stuff that are clearly official acts. And Trump's team wants to take this as some kind of conspiracy against him, when really, he could point the finger at

his own team for delaying to this point to get right to just before election time when these indictments are still coming. You know, Domenico, you talk about that Trump actually was out there talking about this new indictment from the special counsel team and the D.C. grand jury as being election interference because it's coming pretty close to the November election. I asked the Attorney General Mer to how to effectuate a new indictment in an ongoing case. The special counsel is required by the regulations to follow the policies of the Justice Department, including the election sensitivities policies, and I'm quite confident that he did so. And let me jump in and be the Merrick Garland decoder, because he said something important, but it may have really passed by a lot of people who don't listen to him for a living. And he used the word ongoing matter. The election sensitivity policy for the Justice Department generally applies to new cases. In the Justice Department's view, this was not a new case. It was indicted a year ago in Washington, D.C. This was just an update and a response to the Supreme Court. In other words, they weren't interfering in the election. They were just doing what the high court told them to do. And to your point earlier, Carrie, in many ways, voters are going to play a critical role here in the January 6th

case, too, because if the country reelects Donald Trump, that case likely goes away if he's the president. That case definitely goes away if he is the president. And there's a real risk as well for the Justice Department and the prosecutors on this team that the case is going back to the Supreme Court, even if Donald Trump loses, because Trump is making some big arguments about whether his conversations and communications with his vice president, Mike Pence, in 2020 and early 2021 should be part of this case or not. Also this week, we should note that President Biden's son, Hunter, made a seemingly sudden decision to make a plea deal in a tax case that was set to go to trial imminently in Los Angeles. Carrie, what happened there? My goodness, New York to Washington to LA. There's been a lot going on this week. Jury selection had been set to start in Hunter Biden's tax fraud trial on Thursday. And when everyone filed into the courthouse in Los Angeles, including Hunter Biden, but that he would not take full responsibility and do a normal kind of guilty

plea. And prosecutors really balked at that. They said that was not right. That was an injustice. And after some back and forth and a couple of hours of delay, Hunter Biden came back and he pleaded guilty to all nine tax fraud charges against him. That exposes him to a lot of prison time when he's sentenced in mid-December. I mean, Domenico, I think that the legal troubles of Hunter Biden have a lot less political salience now that his father is not running for re-election. But the president has said in the past that he would not pardon his son if convicted. Sort of makes you wonder if that's still true if he's not running for reelection. Well, we'll see what happens, you know, on that last day out when we tend to see a lot of these pardons that happen sometimes for donors and otherwise.

And, you know, Donald Trump also commuted the sentences of people who were close to him or former aides and the like. So, you know, this is the kind of thing that is kind of in the muck of the office, but it is one of the powers that the president has. And yeah, I think there will be a lot of people probably surprised if Joe Biden doesn't wind up pardoning his son on his way out the door. And to bring things full circle, you know what the Supreme Court said in that decision involving Donald Trump and immunity earlier this summer? The pardon power is one of the basically absolute powers that a president has. All right, Carrie, as always, thank you so much for your reporting. Have a great weekend. You too. Thanks. Let's take a quick break. And when we come back, Russian-led election interference. Sound familiar? This message comes from NPR sponsor, the NPR Wine Club, a place to explore the exciting world of wine, including wines inspired by popular NPR shows,

like weekend edition Cabernet. Whether buying a few bottles or joining the club, all purchases help support NPR programming and fund quality reporting developed to connect people to their communities and the world they live in. More at nprwineclub.org slash podcast. Must be 21 or older to purchase. And we're back, and NPR's Shannon Bond is with us.

Hey, Shannon. Hey there. So this week, the Justice Department announced it had disrupted a Russian-led operation here in the U.S. that was meant to spread pro-Russia propaganda and metal in the election. You've been covering the story. Walk us through it. There is this operation that has been going around on social media. It's known as Doppelganger. right content, using AI to create like fake personas of journalists, to spread fake stories, you know, both around sort of domestic politics in the US and other countries, as well as trying to undermine support for Ukraine. And so this week, the Department of Justice announced they had seized 32 domains, so these like fake websites that this operation was using. Now, we've seen this operation be really persistent. So I don't, you know, this is not going to be

the end of it. But I think it is significant that they've kind of taken this step and really have just sort of called out that this is a significant tactic that Russia has been engaging in. And, you know, this is the pro-Kremlin media operation, were secretly funneling money to conservative influencers to use them as sort of conduits to spread their propaganda. How exactly did that work? And who is accused here? Yeah, this is really a fascinating case. And I think it really speaks to sort of increasing sophistication. You know, what the intelligence community says is that Russia and other foreign actors, you know, one of the lessons they have learned over these past cycles is that, you know, Americans aren't necessarily going to buy content or narratives that seem to be obvious propaganda, but one, they are much more likely to believe stuff they hear from other Americans. And this operation was absolutely trying to capitalize on that. So what happened here was, right, these two RT employees were working through a media

company based here in the U.S. to basically pay a bunch of pro-Trump influencers, YouTubers, you know, folks who have fairly big followings online. These include Tim Pool, Benny Johnson, Lauren Southern. And they kind of were setting up this like conservative mega channel on YouTube where these guys were creating videos and posting them. They posted them on YouTube as well as on other platforms. And the idea here was not so much like to have folks like Tim Poole and Benny Johnson who were unaware of where the funding for this is coming from. The point here was not to have them sort of, you know, I'm going to stand up here and, you know, spout out a bunch of Kremlin propaganda.

It was, frankly, content they would have already have been making, but this was Russia really, you know, kind of putting money behind it and trying to spread it further. And part of the reason this is happening is that RT's reach has been quite curtailed in the U.S. and around the world following the war in Ukraine.

And so this is an effort to, you know, be able to still reach American voters. And like I said, to kind of really capitalize on the credibility of fellow Americans, right, like who people may be more receptive to these messages from. Danielle Pletka Domenico, there is something almost darkly funny in the defense of some of these influencers that they didn't know that they were being used by Russia and that these were messages they would have said anyway, and that it reflects how much the conservative worldview over Russia has dramatically shifted understatement under Donald Trump.

It's really bizarre. And, you know, I thought it was strange and, you know, maybe revealing that Tim Pool, the day after this indictment came down then suddenly had a come-to-Jesus moment about Ukraine and saying that they're a top American ally and he's changed his mind about it. I mean this really goes to a broader thing, Sue, about people just not trusting experts generally. They see these influencers as having credibility simply because they have a lot of followers, you know, not because they actually have great credentials. I mean, to me, it's sad and kind of disappointing because, you know, it's such a big part of our jobs to know the best sources or to find out who they are, not just like being some dude who says some provocative stuff you agree with and saying it with conviction, whether or not they actually know what they're talking

about. And that's too much of what we're seeing right now. Shannon, to me, though, and this sort of expands into your beat more broadly, is this influencer culture. Influencers don't play by the same rules as mainstream media people do. They can obviously take money and don't have to disclose it to make content. It's its own business model. But they are often conflated with the quote unquote media. I would note that both the RNC and the DNC had invited and cultivated either conservative influencers or liberal influencers to come to the conventions and make content to get their message out there. Like, we can't deny that this is a very potent force of sort of media consumption

and how you shape public opinion in the modern era. That's right. I mean, this all goes back to sort of this real fracturing we've seen, you know, in media, of course. I mean, we've talked endlessly, right, about like the death of local media and what has happened to trust in media institutions, you know, getting at what Domenico was just talking about, but also about the fracturing we've seen on the internet itself, right? I mean, think about the way, you know, sort of this array of social networks we have now. There is much less, you know, back in 2016, there was a sense that everyone was on Facebook, right? And so that's where we saw, right, some of these Russian operations, you know, back in 2016,

focusing, you know, starting up groups on Facebook. You know, there is much less of a sense that there is sort of one coherent place that people are gathering. And instead, you have these personalities, right, that are able to exist across, you know, X, formerly Twitter and Instagram and YouTube, and also, you know, conservative alternatives like Truth Social and Rumble. And, you know, they have developed these sort of powerful relationships with their audiences, relationships with advertisers, but it is absolutely true that it is much more opaque. Like where that, you know, I don't know, who are they getting paid by? You know, what are their interests? You know, if they are going to the DNC and, you know, like covering it, you know, that might be quite interesting. You know, for me, the audience member, like I

know this person, they're familiar. I have this like parasocial relationship with them. But it is fundamentally different than what we would think of as a traditional news outlet. But I think those I think you're right that those distinctions really are eroding in the minds of many in the American public. Especially when you look at some of these influencers, even beyond politics, I mean, influencer culture, some people can have millions and millions of followers, which is like far bigger than the scope than a lot of media organizations. Right. And when you think about it for these influence operations, like so I mentioned the one I mentioned at the top doppelganger, which was, you know,

creating these fake websites. And they were they were like also creating Twitter accounts and Facebook accounts trying to push this. And they were constantly getting taken down. And one of the things we talk about over and over again with these online influence operations is often they don't get a lot of traction, right? Their posts are not being read by real people. They're not gaining real followers. You're often seeing them like sort of interact only with other fake accounts. Right. Like it's propaganda, but it's not very effective. Exactly. And I think that's what is so interesting and maybe more sophisticated in this tactic of like, okay, well, like, you know, it's really hard to break through these days on social media,

right? Whether you're like a Russian agent or just like a regular person, like it's much harder maybe than it was 10 years ago to try to gain a large following. So what they're trying to do here is tap into people who already have like existing large following and just ride their coattails. And again, it also gets back into the messaging. These are potentially much more like like much more believable conduits for messages that may be friendly to Russia, right? And people who are going to be willing to be critical of the US funding for Ukraine, or, you know, skeptical about, you know, are we where are we spending our money? Or, you know, is the US being overrun by migrant gangs, like, you know, those kind of messages maybe sound much more credible coming out of the mouth of one of these folks than it would out of some sock puppet account. And it's, you know, Russia's perfectly happy to weigh in and interfere in the election.

We're seeing them ramp this up, not just what the Justice Department is highlighting here, but, you know, even Russian President Vladimir Putin this week somewhat endorsed Kamala Harris, which kind of even threw Donald Trump for a little bit of a loop, not knowing exactly what to say, clearly just trying to sort of mess with the system and try to get in Americans' heads really in a very similar way in some respects to what they did in 2016, although on different platforms. Yes, we saw Putin come out and endorse Harris. But the assessment from the intelligence community and frankly, based on documents like that came out in these indictments this week from these Justice Department actions, you know, documents that are like detailing, you know, the Russians detailing their own plans.

It is very clear that Russia prefers Trump to win in this election. They have a pretty sophisticated plan to target swing state voters in favor of Trump. There's a sense they have that the Democrats are, you know, much more supportive of Ukraine and that they have more traction with Republicans in terms of eroding that support. So, you know, you have Putin saying that, but it's very clear from the actions that Russians are taking that they are trying to throw their weight behind Trump. All right, let's take a quick break. And when we get back, time for Can't Let It Go. And we're back and it's time for Can't Let It Go, the part of the show where we talk about the things we just can't stop thinking about from the week, politics or otherwise. I'm going to go first. And the thing I can't let go of this week is the new I Voted stickers coming out of the state of Michigan.

I feel like you probably have seen these, Shannon. I'm not sure if you have. I don't know if I've seen them yet. I got to look it up. They're so good. So the Michigan Secretary of State had a contest, a statewide contest where people could submit new drawings for the I voted sticker you get when you obviously go and vote. I think most people know what they look like normally. The ones in D.C. just say like, I voted and have a checkmark on it, maybe a little American flag, very sort of basic. And they announced nine winners. And the clerks in the state can then now order any combination of these stickers to sort of, you know, update and get people interested in voting. And they're worth Googling because some of them are really great. And they all look like they were drawn by kids. So they all are kind of sweet. wolf, what appears to be a wolf, like howling, tearing off like a tank top, maybe like Hulk Hogan style, standing in front of an American flag. And it just says, I voted above it. And that one's really great. The other one, my second favorite is one that just says, I voted. And the

E and D is backwards. It just says, I voted. Yay. See, this is why artificial intelligence is never going to take away this sort of human creativity. I kind of like the llama. There's like a llama with some ski goggles on. They're all good. I also like the whoop, I voted, like OPE because that's like a Midwestern like whoop, got to go. I kind of feel bad for like Andrew Brasher who actually took this seriously and did like a really pretty lighthouse that says I voted. It's like a really pretty scene. says I voted. It's like a really

pretty scene. The rest of these are way more out there. It's definitely like from the minds of kids, which is what I kind of like about it is like the other one that says I'm cool. I voted, which is if I was a clerk in Michigan, that's the one I would be ordering. Shannon, what about you? Can you let go of? I can't let go of a different kind of social media engagement bait than Russian interference than we've been talking about. I've been noticing a lot on my Instagram let go of? I can't let go of a different kind of social media engagement bait than Russian interference than we've been talking about. I've been noticing a lot on my Instagram stories lately. People are using this, you know, do you know that the add yours template that like pops up on stories? It'll be like, you know, post a picture of yourself as a kid. And you can like, it's,

you know, basically trying to get you to do your own. So you click it and you can add your own. And then you can sort of see this, you know, trail of all the people who have done it. But I'm seeing people using them in ways that feel very like chain lettery. Like, like there was one recently going around that was like a little quiz about like, like your history of, of going to see live music.

So like, what was your first concert, your best concert, all of that. But when it's like taking me back to, and this is going to date me, but like, you know,

when I first got an email account in like high school and early college, like, taking me back to, and this is going to date me, but, like, you know, when I first got an email account in, like, high school and early college, like, I swear I spent so much time with my friends sending around these, like, personality quizzes, right? These, like, chain letters. And, like, this is just, like, the new form of the social media chain letter. But without, for me at least, without the sinister, like, if you don't send this on, you're going to die. You're going to have bad luck for the rest of your life. It's just kind of, like, wholesome, like like seeing what my friends' concert histories are and stuff. I don't know. It's kind of cute. Like, I'll take what I can get online.

You know, the algorithm knows how to keep us hooked. They know what they're doing. Totally. I see them a lot, but I have to admit, I don't participate in them often. Like, I like to see other people's, but I don't engage as much. The concert one was what, like, tipped me over the edge. I was like, oh, okay, I'll do this. And then it was actually kind of fun thinking through, like, you know, back on all the music I've seen in my life.

What was your first live concert? Now I want to know. They might be Giants. Oh, that's a good one. That's cool. Domenico, what about you? My first concert? I can't let go.

You know what? Both. It's Friday. We can do what we want. Let's just get to my can't let go. I can't kind of let go of this fake Taylor Swift, Travis Kelsey breakup blueprint that got put out there on Reddit. Speaking of disinformation. Or is it, right? I kind of wonder because I go to court over it. There are these documents

in Hollywood that have come up for other celebrities that their PR firms have created. And I just can't help think about like what a world that is where like, you know, you've got an entire team of people who need something to do, frankly, with your money and figure out ways to, you know, maintain your reputation, so to speak, so, with your money and figure out ways to maintain your reputation, so to speak, so that in case something happens, you've got it written down. You're not going to do that Merrick Garland thing where you try to put Taylor Swift lyrics or song titles into the rest of your answer. That was totally ad hoc. I did not. I just realized it as it was coming out of my mouth. So

that's it. I'm not going to do anything else with that. I don't think they're breaking up. I think that was a weird rumor. I'm going to choose to still believe in the love story. I see what you did there. I'm also a true believer. But I also think that, yes, people do do these kinds of PR things because they're rich people and that's what they do. I'm the biggest hater.

I'm happy to see them all not be on my TV anymore when I watch football. Can we just watch football? I don't care. You're cold, Paul. I do not care. I do not care about Taylor Swift or Travis Kelsey at all anymore. Kill his mic. Stop. Kill his mic.

Enough. All right. Let's leave it there for today. Our executive producer is Mathoni Mottori. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our producers are Jung Yoon Han, Casey Mor. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our producers are Jung Yoon Han, Casey Morrell, and Kelly Wessinger. Special thanks to Christian of Calamer. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. I'm Shannon Bond. I cover disinformation. And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent. And thanks for listening to the NPR Politics

Podcast. And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and... Oh my god, this is the second time I have forgotten my title. It's too long.