The NPR Politics Podcast - Sen. Manchin Closes The Door On Biden's Build Back Better Plan

Episode Date: December 20, 2021

In an appearance on Fox News Sunday, the West Virginia Democrat said he would not support the Build Back Better Act, the centerpiece of President Biden's domestic agenda. The announcement, which came after months of wheel-spinning in Congress, dooms legislation that Biden says would allow the U.S. to curb the climate crisis and better support working families. Read more: Manchin says Build Back Better's climate measures are risky. That's not true.This episode: White House correspondent Asma Khalid, congressional correspondent Kelsey Snell, and acting congressional correspondent Deirdre Walsh.Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

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Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. I'm Kelsey Snell. I cover Congress. And I'm Deirdre Walsh. I also cover Congress. President Biden's signature social welfare and climate bill, known as Build Back Better, is essentially dead. Over the weekend, West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin told Fox News that he just cannot support the legislation. If I can't go home and explain it to the people of West Virginia, I can't vote for it. And I cannot vote to continue with this piece of legislation. I just can't. I've tried everything humanly possible. I can't get there. His comments destroyed pretty

much any lingering hope that Democrats could get this bill across the finish line. And if you are a longtime listener of this podcast, you've heard us talk probably endlessly for months and months about these negotiations. And it feels like the talks have limped along for a long time, sometimes with not a whole lot of hope. But I think the expectation is that maybe it would take more time. Now suddenly we have this abrupt end to the long saga. I'm not exactly sure how we had such an abrupt ending. Anyone care to help me understand that? Well, I think that there are a lot of Democrats and possibly even the White House wondering how they had such an abrupt ending. I actually think that the White House statement from yesterday afternoon after Manchin made this statement is a pretty good indication that they were not expecting it.

Really, it's unlike anything I've seen come out of this White House before. It really felt like they thought they were betrayed from the statement, Senator Manchin promised to continue conversations in the days ahead and to work with us to reach common ground. If his comments on Fox and written statement indicate an end to that effort, they represent a sudden and inexplicable reversal in his position and a breach of his commitments to the president. It was only a few days ago that we got the statement from Biden on Thursday night that, you know, they were still in discussions and in the days and weeks ahead, they hope to move the bill. So they went from that to having these discussions to just nothing. Yeah. You know, blowing the whole thing up. I mean, Kelsey, you had some reporting on just how quickly this all unfolded. It sounds like Manchin's office only briefly gave the White House even a heads up that he was going to make these comments on Fox News. Yeah, I was told that Manchin's staff reached out to Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and to the White House about a half an hour before he appeared on Fox News. Yeah, not Manchin himself, but his staff. And that really

seems to have bothered Democrats who feel like they went through this whole months-long process of doing a lot of personal attention, working directly with Manchin. There were phone calls and texts and meetings, and it was all of this focus on how they could meet his demands. And then Manchin sent a staffer to tell them that he was going to blow it all up on television. And in a radio interview this morning with Metro News in West Virginia, Manchin continued to sort of vent about his frustrations with the White House. And he really like railed on the White House staff. I'm not blaming anybody.

I knew where they were and I knew what they could and could not do. They just never realized it because they figure, surely to God, we can move one person. Surely we can badger can move one person. Surely we can badger and beat one person up. Surely we can get enough protesters to make that person uncomfortable enough. They'll just say, okay, I'll vote for anything. Just quit. Well, guess what? I'm from West Virginia. I'm not from where they're from. And they can just beat the living crap out of people and think they'll be submissive, period. Yeah, it seems like something shifted in some dramatic way, but it's very hard to tell what it is. I mean, people will draw many conclusions about the fact that Manchin decided to do this radio station also gives us a little bit of a clue into what he was thinking, because he specifically cited feeling like he was

being attacked by protesters and by activists who were trying to pressure him into voting for this bill. And he seemed angry about that. I mean, Deirdre, you may have had a different interpretation of the way he was talking, but he seemed to really be calling these people out as being part of why he's being so defiant. Definitely. I mean, he also said, you know, look, you know, people think they're going to badger me into voting on this and, you know, voting for this. And I've been telling people where I am. And I'm from West Virginia. I'm not from some of these, I think he called, you know, some of these places where people can be what he called submissive. I mean, it was very stinging. I mean, the other thing he said is, you know, some of these places where people can be what he called submissive. I mean, it was very stinging. I mean, the other thing he said is, you know, people like Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders wants to have a Senate vote on this Build Back Better legislation, and he's up for it.

I think Bernie, yesterday on CNN, says, I want mansion. We put it on the floor. I said, Bernie, please put it on the floor. Maybe it'll sink in that we have to look at a different direction than this far-reaching social agenda of yours. I mean, is that even a realistic idea that Democrats would put this to a vote knowing that they don't have the votes? Because it feels like that doesn't just put Joe Manchin in a hot seat. It might put other Democrats in a bit of a vulnerable position. Well, it's exactly what Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer says they're going to do. I mean, a lot of Democrats are angry at Manchin and want to force him into this position. It isn't just Bernieanberger in Virginia in particular. She is a very vulnerable centrist Democrat in the House. And she put out this statement the same level as Manchin thinks that his position should

be the central position for Democrats, the House Democrats do not function that way. House Democrats are much more left-leaning as a collective, like the center of the House caucus is further to the left than I think Manchin is accepting when he makes these kinds of statements. I mean, is this the end, though, of the so-called build back better legislation? I mean, the White House in its statement seemed to publicly suggest that maybe Senator Manchin could change his mind again, given that he, you know, very quickly, they say changed it in this direction. And maybe he could be convinced to vote for some other version of this bill. Is that even realistic? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think some Democratic leaders are still determined to push back some version of Build Back Better. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi had an event in San Francisco today talking about infrastructure money and continued to say, you know, we can't, you know, we can't be deterred. I will not

be deterred. We have to move forward. I believe Manchin cares about the American people. But I think this version of Build Back Better is dead. I think, you know, another scaled down version of it could be something that could be revived. But I think Democrats have to have some sort of hard discussions about how to rework things. All right, well, let's take a quick break. And we'll talk more about the policy implications of this all in just a second. And we're back. And you know, guys, it's striking to me that the president really leaned into the bully pulpit to pressure progressives to vote for that bipartisan infrastructure deal. And what that meant was that it did give up leverage that they possibly had over Joe Manchin. And I guess I'm trying to make sense of why he did that and why he chose to use his political clout to do that. I think the timing on that had a lot to do with

a political dynamic that happened around the same time. That's when Democrats lost a governor's race in Virginia by a significant margin and came significantly close to losing a governor's race in New Jersey. And I think that's when Democrats started to get nervous that their agenda was in jeopardy, and they didn't have anything to show for these months of talks. I think that was part of it. And, you know, I think the other thing is, I don't, I think there was a little overselling of what they could guarantee what Senator Manchin was going to agree to. I mean, that came up in, you know, statements from the Congressional Progressive Caucus Chair Jayapal. She kept saying that Biden promised her that he

would get the Senate votes together, that he essentially promised that he would get Manchin on board. There were promises made here. And it sounds like what you're saying, Kelsey, is that folks trusted, at least within the Progressive Caucus side, they trusted the president. And it wasn't a matter of trusting, say, Senator Manchin, but that they trusted their president to be able to bring Senator Manchin on board. And now the president has been able to do that. I mean, in fact, specifically, when Diapol was asked at the time that they were moving forward with the bipartisan infrastructure bill, that she didn't say she trusted Manchin. She said she trusted the president. You know, we're out with a new NPR PBS NewsHour Mayorist poll that shows the president's approval rating is at its lowest mark since he took the presidency. Just 41% of Americans approve of the

job he's doing right now, which suggests that he really doesn't have a lot of political leverage to necessarily pressure members of his own party to get much of anything passed, whether it's, you know, even a pared down version of some other, say, I don't know, Build Back Better version 2.0 or 3.0, whatever it is. And it just makes me really perplexed as to what necessarily the next steps forward for this White House could be. Yeah. And I think there's also a question about whether or not some of this is circular, where Democrats say that he isn't popular because they haven't passed the policies. And so it's one of those things where it's hard to read. I think each Democrat has a

different interpretation of what that means. You know, before we end the podcast today, I do want to get a little bit deeper into what Senator Manchin says his reasoning is here in terms of not supporting the Build Back Better legislation. Manchin represents a coal state, and he has certainly made a substantial amount of money from coal. He has also voiced all sorts of objections to some of the climate provisions that were in the legislation, objections that NPR's climate team has said are not entirely factual. By not having the climate provisions in this piece of legislation passed, it makes it very, very difficult for President Biden to meet his own environmental goals and the targets that scientists say are necessary to mitigate the worst impacts that climate crisis has. How much of a factor would you say were the climate provisions in understanding why Senator Manchin was not supportive of this bill? Well, we do know that he got a lot of concessions on the climate front already. He had made major

changes to earlier versions of this bill on the climate sections. And so I think he has had evolving objections to this bill. Yeah, he's been saying for months that he couldn't vote for a lot of the things in there. And they did scale it back. I thought it was interesting in the statement that the president put out on Thursday night. He talked about prescription drugs, child care, elder care. There was no mention of the climate provisions when he talked about, you know, working forward in the days and weeks to come to get to a bill. It wasn't mentioned in that statement. So I think that was part of their effort to continue working with Manchin by not focusing on that and focusing on the pieces that he was OK with.

You know, Kelsey, you mentioned that Senator Manchin has had an evolving list of concerns about this legislation. One of the other central components of this original legislation that it seems he has been opposed to is the expansion of the child tax credit. I know you've reported quite a bit on that. I was unclear as to be honest whether or not that was going to be in this bill or not in the bill, because I know there's been a lot of back and forth. But he, it seems, was opposed to making that child tax credit more permanent. Well, he's also had an evolving position on that. which, you know, basically meaning people who are on the higher income end of the spectrum wouldn't get it, or having work requirements, which typically applies to people on the lower income end of the spectrum. He has also voiced differing opinions about whether or not it should be a one-year extension or a 10-year extension or it should be, you know, the version of the bill that they were discussing that included a one-year extension of the expanded monthly payments was a concession to a demand that he had made, that he didn't want a longer-term extension, a more costly extension in the bill. He then turned around and said that,

well, he thought it was, you know, an inaccurate reflection of the total and real cost of the bill to only be considering a one-year extension. That's part of why a lot of, you know, other Democrats say they found it really hard to negotiate with him. All right, then. Well, it seems like we still don't entirely know the fate of this legislation, but for now, it certainly looks doomed. And we will leave it there for today. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. I'm Kelsey Snell. I cover Congress. And I'm Deirdre Walsh. I also cover Congress.

And thank you all, as always, for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.