The NPR Politics Podcast - Sources & Methods: Trump's UK Visit, Gaza/Ukraine Tension

Episode Date: September 20, 2025

Today, we're sharing another episode from NPR's newest podcast, Sources & Methods. Each Thursday, host Mary Louise Kelly breaks down the week's biggest national security news with NPR's team of reporters covering the military, State Department, and spy agencies. NPR correspondents stationed around the world also join the conversation. This episode, political correspondent Danielle Kurtzleben and diplomatic correspondent Michele Kelemen talk about the foreign policy issues that loomed large as President Trump visited U.K. Prime Minister Kier Starmer: the wars in Gaza and Ukraine. NPR international correspondent Daniel Estrin joins from Tel Aviv to talk about how Israelis are reacting to their increasing isolation amid international pressure on Israel to stop its offensive.Find new episodes of Sources & Methods on the NPR App or wherever you listen to podcasts. Listen to every episode of the NPR Politics Podcast sponsor-free, unlock access to bonus episodes with more from the NPR Politics team, and support public media when you sign up for The NPR Politics Podcast+ at plus.npr.org/politics.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for NPR and the following message comes from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. RWJF is a national philanthropy, working toward a future where health is no longer a privilege but a right. Learn more at RWJF.org. Hey there, it's Tamara Keith here with another Saturday episode of Sources and Methods, NPR's new national security podcast, hosted by Mary Louise Kelly. We're sharing these episodes here for a few weeks, but today will be the last time we do that. That means now is the time to find sources and methods on your podcast platform of choice and follow the show for new episodes every Thursday.

Here's the latest episode of Sources and Methods from NPR. They're treating the Brits like they are other European countries. It's all about deal-making, transactional diplomacy, and not so much about these big-picture issues of, what the world looked like after World War II and this special alliance. After a royal charm offensive, how special is the so-called special relationship feeling between the U.K. and the U.S.? We'll check the temperature and dig into one of the key points of tension, the war in Gaza. This is sources and methods from NPR.

I'm Mary Louise Kelly. Every Thursday, we discuss the biggest, now. national security stories of the week. Today, I am in London where I've been covering President Trump's visit, protests, royal carriage ride, business deals, security details, and all. NPR diplomatic correspondent Michelle Kellerman has been following it from her perch at the State Department. And Michelle, no royal carriage rides for you, alas, but I guess you probably have better weather than we do here in Britain, so you can take the win. And we also have on the line White House correspondent Daniel Kurtzleben, who's actually on this. this side of the pond with me today, Danielle, is part of the White House pool traveling with

President Trump. Hey, Danielle. Hey, there. You can hear a helicopter behind me. That's how you know this is real. Yeah, tell me where you are. What's the scene? Well, I am outside of checkers. That is the prime minister's country residence. That is where we just watched that press conference between President Donald Trump and Prime Minister Kier Starrmer. And right now, the press pool is just waiting outside for our next move. I wonder, while I have got you before you board the plane and helicopter and then plan and fly home with the president to Washington, what jumped out at you from this much-anticipated press conference with British Prime Minister Kirstarmer. Well, a couple things. First of all, the diplomatic issues on which the two men disagree. And I think this jumped out to a lot of people. First of all, there were questions about the UK's impending decision to recognize Palestine as a state. And Donald Trump responded to a question about that saying,

look, this is just one issue, one of the few issues on which I do not agree with Prime Minister Starmor. And when the question of Gaza came up at all, Donald Trump just kept going back to October 7th, to the horror of that day, as a way of backing up his decision to continue supporting the real. Yeah, I'm just going to jump in because we can hear that you're very much in the thick. of it and just get a little bit of your sense of what it is there. Pull back the curtain on what it's like to be actually in that room. What struck you in terms of trapping, in terms of body language, things we might not have been able to see those of us who were watching a video feed from the outside. The room was opulent, but like opulence has been the name of the game

this week here in the UK. I mean, between the president's visit to Windsor, we in the press pool went to Windsor today. We did not get to go in, but even from the outside, it is just stunning the grandeur of it. And here at Checkers, similarly, it's no, it's no Windsor Castle, but it is a large, beautiful place. And that room that we were in for that press conference, you couldn't see it on the TV feeds, but it was a room about as wide as it was tall. It was kind of a cube. And so it wasn't very large, length and widthwise. All the reporters were really packed in like sardines. Well, and speak to that because the reporters packed in like Sardines. I was interested in who got called on at this press conference.

Right. The Prime Minister took the first few questions. President Trump, who did he call on? And what were you noticing as a White House correspondent? Well, quite frankly, the President called on right-leaning, not to put it mildly, reporters from right-leaning organizations. Prime Minister Starrmer, for his part, did two rounds of questions. think he took about half a dozen questions. But then President Trump only took three questions. And he called on GBN, which is a UK organization that is right-leaning. Yes. He called on Real America's

voice. And he called on Fox News. And the questions, quite frankly, from the U.S. reporters, did not push Trump nearly as much as the British reporter's questions pushed Kier Starmor and Trump, for that matter. Yeah, I was in the G.B. News news room here in London yesterday, getting a sense of how they were covering this visit. So it was really interesting to see their new Washington anchor getting the first question. One topic that did not seem to come up was Jeffrey Epstein. There was a lot of expectation that these two leaders didn't want to talk about it. Therefore, reporters would definitely ask them about it. What do you make of that? Look, I am not going to speculate. I don't know what to make of that. But that was stunning to me. I don't know why no one asked about that.

Ambassador did come up, though. Someone did ask Kier Starrmer about Peter Mandelson, the ambassador who was fired recently after some emails came to light showing that he was quite friendly with Epstein, even after Epstein had been convicted of some pretty heinous things. So that did come up a little. But you are absolutely right that direct questions about Jeffrey Epstein did not come up today. And look, I don't know what to make of it beyond being very, very surprised. Okay, Danielle Kurtzleben, we're going to release you to the helicopter and to the flight that is taking you and the rest of the White House reporters back to Washington today. Thanks so much for joining sources and methods. Yeah, thank you for bearing with me.

All right, well, while Danielle makes it to the airport, Michelle Kellerman, I want to run through some of the takeaways that you have from that press conference we just watched. Back in February, this was when this all got put in motion. Kirstarmer was visiting the Oval Office. he pulled a letter for Trump out of his jacket pocket. This is really special. This has never happened before. This is unprecedented. Unusual, indeed unprecedented invitation from King Charles for a second state visit.

My question, Michelle, did it work? What was your takeaway on what these two leaders walked away from after this meeting? Yeah, I mean, it's really hard to tell yet whether all of this flattery, the pomp and circumstance, is really going to make a judgment. is really going to make a difference. I mean, we did hear the president shift gears on Russia a bit. He had met with Putin in Alaska and rolled out the red carpet there. And since then, we've seen the Russians continuing to bomb Kiev. And Kirst Armer even pointed out that they're, you know, hitting things like the British Council in Kiev and the EU embassy.

And you have Russian drones flying over Poland. So, you know, the Brits have really wanted to keep a focus on that and to get Trump to kind of change his mind on Putin and to really step up the pressure. Well, and it was interesting. I was in Alaska for that summit. And I remember it ended with Trump thanking. And I'm quoting his good friend Vladimir for a very successful meeting. Here we are a month later. I think it's like a month and three days. And he's saying President Putin, he's let me down. He's really let me down. down. Does that open the door at all to Ukraine and its European allies for trying to translate Trump maybe signaling a personal shift to an actual policy shift? It could, but we didn't hear what that policy shift might look like. You know, we did hear the president say that he thinks that Putin is going to drop out of this if the price of oil comes down. So he's encouraging the Europeans to to stop buying oil from Russia. And he's really kind of trying to put the onus back on the Europeans.

You know, I'll do the pressure, but you have to as well. You know, we'll see if that really happens. So let me end us back on the special relationship. I looked this up. It was actually Winston Churchill, who coined that phrase shortly after World War II. Of course. Of course it was Churchill. He owns all the best turns of phrase. Does the special relationship still look special from your vantage point covering U.S. diplomacy? I think the special relationship has never always been all that special. It's come a long way since Churchill. Yeah. I mean, it hasn't even helped the U.K. I mean, the U.K. has seen tariffs like other countries. The U.K. has come under criticism from this administration for cracking down on hate speech. You know, that's something that the Trump administration is bringing on the Europeans, including the Brits.

So, you know, President Trump has a fondness for the Brits. His mother came from Scotland, and he talks about that a lot. But, you know, they're treating the Brits like they are other European countries. It's all about deal-making, transactional diplomacy. And not so much about these big picture issues of what the world looked like after World War II and this special alliance, it's, you know, it's gotten down to kind of more transactional diplomacy. And there was a lot of transactional diplomacy at this particular diplomatic encounter. There were U.S. business leaders in the room, British business leaders in the room,

and many billions in tech and energy and other deals announced. Okay, Michelle Kellerman, stay with us because after a short break, we're going to dig into one of the issues that was front and center during this press conference. Indeed, it got the very first question, and a few more after that. the war in Gaza. You're listening to sources and methods from NPR. Support for NPR, and the following message comes from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. RWJF is a national philanthropy, working toward a future where health is no longer a privilege, but a right. Learn more at RWJF.org.

All right, we're going to spend the next few minutes on what was perhaps the biggest area of tension at the Trump-Starmer meeting, and that is Israel's ongoing offensive in Gaza. It was the one area where we heard President Trump allowed that he has some disagreements with Kier-Starmer and the Brits. We know that the summer stormer vowed the UK would officially recognize Palestinian statehood unless Israel moved on a ceasefire and moved toward long-term peace. Well, instead, Israel has launched a major ground offensive in Gaza City, and once again, hundreds of thousands of people are being forced to evacuate. So I want to pull a voice from Tel Aviv into this conversation, and that voice is Daniel Estrin, our

correspondent for NPR, based in Tel Aviv. Hey, Daniel. Hi, Mary Louise. Hey, okay, so we're going to talk this through with you and Michelle, and I would love to start with how we know what is happening on the ground. I just said, you're in Tel Aviv, you're not in Gaza. We do have a producer in Gaza, Anas Baba, who you work with closely. on a daily basis. Can you pull back the curtain a little bit on just how that works? Yeah, Anas Baba has been reporting for us from Gaza for the entire duration of the war. He's from there and we get reports from him every single day.

In front of me, a father with his two children. He's sitting on the sidewalk and he's sitting above all his luggage, his tent. He records the sound of bombardment just the last And in the last couple nights, he has recorded overnight the sound of artillery fire, of helicopter fire, of warplanes, Israeli warplanes, rumbling in the skies above Gaza. Yeah. We always want to be careful because his security is paramount. But what is he sharing about what he is seeing what he is living through? As you said, he's from Gaza. He's not only reporting the story, he's living it as this new, renewed, massive ground operations. cranks up. Yeah, and this ground operation has been very slowly advancing in phases, and first Israeli troops were active on the periphery of Gaza City, and while he was reporting on that, he was also packing up his family's home, the furniture, all the belongings and renting a van, moving it to a warehouse in southern Gaza, as Israel was slowly advancing

its troops in the periphery of the city where his family has had their, his home for as long as he's been alive. And then in the last several weeks, tall buildings have been obliterated by Israeli airstrikes. I stood in the dust and deprees of one of those towers filming the attack. I watched a video that he filmed of intense gray plumes of smoke just rolling in. He filmed a woman afterwards picking through the belongings in the tent she's in. She could only salvage Lipton tea bags. And then this week, that intensified bombing at 9 that I mentioned. So all of this is very intense, but it's also very slow and gradual. Israel turning the screws, trying to encourage and scare Palestinians into leaving the city in advance

of troops rolling in. And you're there in Israel. You cover Israel. What is Israel saying about why? About why this is the strategy they're choosing to pursue. Well, Israel is signaling that this is a different chapter of the war than every other. chapter. Every other chapter, troops went into areas, fought Hamas brigades, and then left those areas. And this is different because the army says that they will be sending troops into the heart of Gaza's city. This is Gaza's biggest city, dense urban environment, with hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living there still. Some have left, but the majority of the city's residents are still there. And then we don't know what will happen. The plan is for them to be there indefinitely.

And so this leaves Israel in a completely new situation. Will soldiers be responsible for providing food and water and basic services to hundreds of thousands of civilians in the middle of a dense urban area? The Israeli military chief of staff privately, we hear in reports, is warning this would be a full military occupation that Israel does not want. He's been warning against this operation, against this offensive, and yet it's moving ahead. Michelle, jump in. You've reported from the Middle East. You're now covering Middle East diplomacy from Washington and about to cover it from New York, from the UN General Assembly, which begins next week. What is striking you and what you're hearing Daniel say? What kind of questions are going to be on your mind? You know, one of the British reporters asked a question of Trump today, and it was basically you're the only one who can stop Netanyahu. What are you going to do? His answer was just don't forget about October 7. There was no mention of suffering in Gaza. I mean, this administration has pretty much given Netanyahu free reign.

And I think that's pretty shocking because, of course, the U.S. wants him to win once the hostages released. But as Daniel said, you know, there are Israeli military people who are saying this is a bad mistake. I mean, friends don't let friends make mistakes like that, right? But you're not hearing any kind of pushback from the Trump administration. And on the other hand, you have the Europeans who are going to the U.N. General Assembly next week. There's going to be a big event on Monday where more and more countries are going to recognize a state of Palestine. Well, speaking of the United Nations, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we will talk about the sweeping report from a United Nations commission that accuses Israel of committing genocide in Gaza.

Will it make a difference? Daniel Estrin in Tel Aviv, pick back up. I want to ask about this independent United Nations commission that has found Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. And Israel, not surprisingly, is rejecting this as distorted, calling it false. How is the news landing where you are in Israel? Most Israelis are not very rattled by this report. Israelis are used to hearing scathing reports from the United States. nations for decades. And on the question of genocide, most Israelis see this in the lens of the

Holocaust, and they say Gaza is not Auschwitz. I will say there is something that is rattling Israelis. And it is the sense of international isolation that Israel has been rapidly facing. This UN report is just one example of something a lot bigger that Israelis are looking at. and I can give you a number of examples. Israelis vacationing abroad have been attacked on the streets of Europe in several instances. The Eurovision Song Contest, and don't laugh that I'm bringing this up because this is a huge deal for Israelis. Yeah, they're obsessed with Eurovision and they compete. And the Eurovision Song Contest is under big pressure from several countries to disqualify Israel.

Germany is probably Israel's biggest ally besides the U.S., and it is. now talking about suspending military exports to Israel, military exports that could be used in Gaza and other European countries are doing the same with their military exports. And this week there was a speech by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that really rattled Israelis. He said Israel may have to become, and I quote, a super Sparta and self-reliant in building its weapons on its own without depending on support from other countries. And after that speech, the stock market in Israel plummeted. So you see international pressure growing on Israel over its conduct in Gaza. You see the isolation. And many Israelis look at that and see a snowball that

is just growing and growing. Michelle, weigh in on that because I'm thinking it's very hard, I will say, to keep track of quite what the U.S. position is on some of this. On the one hand, we saw just today, President Trump again, not mentioning the crisis, in Gaza, instead focusing very much on wanting to get Israeli hostages home. That follows last week, though the U.S. joining the U.N. Security Council and condemning Israeli strikes on Qatar. As someone who's covered the U.N. for a long time, how surprising was that? It was surprising just because, you know, this administration hasn't criticized Israel at all, but that was a strike on an ally in the Middle East. Qatar, the U.S. has a big base there.

And I think Trump sounded frustrated with Netanyahu about that. They sent Marco Rubio to go to Qatar. But that's it. I think next week you're going to see the U.S. and Israel very isolated at the U.N. I mean, you know, 142 countries already in the General Assembly have approved this declaration that the Saudis and the French have come up with, which is basically just trying to revive the whole. notion of a two-state solution saying that's the only way to really resolve this. It's not going to change anything on the ground. If you have more and more countries recognizing a state of Palestine that doesn't, you know, wish it into existence. But it will step up the pressure

internationally. And, you know, just listening to the words that Kirstarmer used, he said we have to end the catastrophe in Gaza. He said the situation is intolerable. Those were pretty strong language that he had today. So that's a little bit of what to look for next week. I'm going to move us toward our last segment, the very popular, increasingly popular OScent section of our podcast. Before I do, a quick reminder, you can email us. We are at Sources and Methods at NPR.org.

You can send us your questions, your feedback, your tips. A thank you to listener Sam in the D.C. area who did just that. He wrote to say he listens on Friday mornings while getting ready for school. High school. And he asked us, how about covering Eastern Century? Now, that is a NATO operation to protect territory on the eastern flank of the alliance. And Sam, we will keep it in mind. He also adds that his favorite part of the show is OSENT. So, Sam, this one's for you. For those of you who are new to OSENT, it means open source intelligence, OSI-N-T. It's the final segment of our show. We share some not-so-secret details that maybe might reveal a bigger story. if you know where to look. I will kick us off. This is something fascinating that I just learned this week here in London.

We were doing all kinds of reporting on the security preparations for President Trump's visit. They are immense, as you will imagine. And we interviewed a guy named Nick Aldworth. He used to be the UK's National Coordinator for Counterterrorism. And he said, you know,

when you're watching all the proceedings at Windsor Castle, all the royal pageantry, look for the men in the tailored coats. look for the carriages. He said, they are protection officers. He also said, look at the military that are riding on horseback with swords that you might imagine are ceremonial. No, no. He said every year they get together, they practice how they might block an attack. He said it's really impressive to watch. So I had no idea. I just figured they had a really good tailor in good suits. But there you go. Michelle Kellerman, what do you have?

Well, as I'm getting ready for the UN General Assembly, the words they keep coming, back up is the headquarters agreement. You know, the U.N. is based in New York, in the U.S., and the U.S. has an obligation to allow people to come to the U.N. to speak, countries from around the world. And, you know, you had Soviet leaders during the height of the Cold War. I remember Hugo Chavez from Venezuela speaking after George Bush had spoken, and he said, the devil was here today, and it still smells like sulfur in the room. You know, you've had a lot of drama of people. over the years and a lot of kind of bad actors coming to the UN General Assembly. But this year, the Trump administration is not giving visas to the Palestinian Authority. Those are the

people that, you know, you'd think the U.S. would want to support to have some sort of future Palestinian state and to talk about this statehood issue, to talk about peace. But the U.S. doesn't want to see the PA have a role in Gaza, and they're not even letting them. come to the General Assembly. Wow. Daniel, I bet you have thoughts on that from Tel Aviv. Well, I will mention one thing there. There is a precedent there. The U.S. also blocked a visa for the Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat back in 1998 for the U.N.

I didn't know this before. The U.N. actually moved its General Assembly meeting to Geneva in order for him to be able to come and give a speech. That was in 1998. What I'm hearing from Palestinian officials and from my reporting here is that the Palestinian Authority president, without a visa now, thanks to the Trump administration, they did not want to rock the boat by asking the UN to move the UN General Assembly this year. And so it's going to be in New York without him. They didn't want to rock the boat because they want to remain in the U.S. as good graces. So we'll have to see if Abbas sends his speech on video. I don't know.

I do not either, but I do know I'm glad to have had the chance to talk to you. NPR International Correspondent, Daniel Estrin in Tel Aviv. Thanks so much. Oh, it was a pleasure. Thank you. And diplomatic correspondent, Michelle Kellerman in Washington. Thank you. Great to be here. That's our show for today. One more thank you for this week to our NPR Plus supporters who hear the show without sponsor messages. If that is you, thank you. Starting next week, you'll have access to our growing archive, which includes all but the most recent four episodes. If you're not a supporter, you can learn more, and you can sign up

at plus.npr.org. Plus.npr.org. The link, it's in our episode notes. Supporters help keep this show going. You power independent journalism across NPR. We're back next Thursday with another new episode. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. Thank you for listening to sources and methods from NPR. Support for NPR and the following message comes from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. RWJF is a national philanthropy, working toward a future where health is no longer a privilege but a right. Learn more at RWJF.org.