The NPR Politics Podcast - Sparks Fly At Fourth Republican Primary Debate

Episode Date: December 7, 2023

Former New Jersey governor Chris Christie, Florida governor Ron DeSantis, former U.N. ambassador Nikki Haley & businessman Vivek Ramaswamy attacked each other during the final Republican primary debate before the Iowa caucuses. Former president Donald Trump, who has refused to take part in any of the debates, remains the party's frontrunner. This episode: political correspondent Sarah McCammon, political reporter Ximena Bustillo, and senior political editor & correspondent Domenico Montanaro.This episode was edited by Casey Morell. It was produced by Jeongyoon Han. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi.Unlock access to this and other bonus content by supporting The NPR Politics Podcast+. Sign up via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hi, this is Hanna from Finland. We just celebrated our 106th Independence Day. Here at NATO's longest eastern border, this particular day is always celebrated in a solemn and dignified manner. We saved the wild parties for other occasions. This podcast was recorded at 10.21 p.m. time on wednesday december 6th 2023 things may have changed by the time you hear this but we will still be independent okay here's the show dignified is that a thing i want to hear about what when they do the wild parties this is like a total tease i forget about the rest of this podcast. Well, happy Independence Day.

Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Sarah McCammon. I cover the presidential campaign. I'm Ximena Bustillo, and I cover politics. And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent. And then there were four. Four Republican candidates took to the stage tonight at the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa

for another primary debate. They were former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, former U.N. Ambassador and former South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, and businessman Vivek Ramaswamy. Now, the GOP frontrunner, you might not be surprised, former President Donald Trump was not there, as he has not been at any of these debates. As the night got started, everybody seemed to be ganging up on Haley. Here's a taste of the tone from the NewsNation debate.

And the fact of the matter is, we know from her history, Nikki will cave to those big donors when it counts. And that is not acceptable. The only person more fascist than the Biden regime now is Nikki Haley, who thinks the government should identify every one of those individuals with an ID. I would be happy to. And I love all the attention, fellas. Thank you for that. She was seeing that attention as a positive sign, wasn't she, Humana?

What was your take? You were there. She really was. And we saw this attention turn to Haley really early on in the debate with that very first question. And it wasn't just questions at her, but it was comments from both Florida Governor Ron DeSantis and businessman Vivek Ramaswamy, where in their answers, they lobbed these jabs at Haley, whether it was her past comments or throwbacks to organizations she had been a part of. And that was very specific, inciting why she should not be the Republican nominee as opposed to anyone else on the stage. Now, as we've talked about this week on this podcast, you know, she, Haley, is the only woman in this race.

Is there a risk that those attacks from these male rivals come off as misogynistic more than anything else? You know, I definitely think there is that risk. It was an obvious isolation. But I think at the same time, it also made a point to show that Haley was the rival on the stage to beat for them. And I think that came off really strongly. I mean, look, the fact is Haley established herself tonight or was established as the front runner of the also-rans or the candidates who are also running who are not named Trump. You know, I mean, she was clearly the person who everybody had their sights out for. And, you know, she parried a lot of those attacks, sometimes taking a step back to not get involved. In fact, at one point, waving off a pretty below the belt attack from Vivek

Ramaswamy, where she said, no, I don't need to respond. He's not worth my time. And, you know, I think it clearly has established her as the potential principal alternative to Trump that's been growing and growing. And there was a clear period on the sentence for that tonight. Now, while everybody else was criticizing her, Haley was the first in the NewsNation debate to go after Donald Trump's economic record. Here she is. But this is where Trump went wrong. Trump was good on trade, but that's all he was with China, because here he allowed fentanyl to continue to come over. He continued to allow them to take, he would give them technology that would build up their military and hurt us.

He allowed the Chinese infiltration for them to buy up farmland, to put money in our universities and to continue to do things that were harmful for America. We now have a spy base in Cuba and police stations and Trump didn't do anything about it. Thank you.

Ximena, we've been talking so much about the hesitancy among many of these candidates to criticize Donald Trump. How might this land with his loyal supporters? Well, this was a really interesting thing to point out because, you know, Trump's economic and particularly his trade policy is one of the biggest landmarks from his administration. But it also does come with mixed emotions. You know, as we know, I have a background covering agriculture and I talk to farmers. Farmers who vote Republican have always voted Republican, but they remember the Trump era, China trade war specifically, as an era that is not their favorite. You know, we saw not only China being barred from buying

agricultural products, they're the biggest buyer of agricultural products, but also the retaliatory not their favorite. You know, we saw not only China being barred from buying agricultural products, they're the biggest buyer of agricultural products, but also the retaliatory tariffs then later placed on U.S. farmers were really economically damaging. And so I think that is one thing that is, you know, a little bit of a niche nugget, but kind of interesting to remember here. And we don't necessarily know which parts of that are going to continue forward. As a former Iowa, Nebraska reporter, I'm all here for the nuggets about agriculture. But Dominic, what do you make of all this? I mean, the candidates were, again, very delicate in balancing how they go after President Trump,

former President Trump, if they went after him at all. You know, I thought Chris Christie, the former New Jersey governor, you know, he's somebody who got into this race, I don't think, not really thinking he would win. I mean, I talked to some people who are running his super PAC, who were essentially like, look, he knows what the stakes are here. He knows how high the hurdle is, but he wants people to know what he sees as the truth about Trump. And he really effectively baited a lot of the candidates into having to defend their inability to criticize Trump. In fact, going after Ron DeSantis, the Florida governor, for whether or not he believes Trump is fit to hold office, not just about his age. And he, in many ways, did a better job of inserting some difficult questions than some of the moderators did. Domenico, let's talk more about Chris Christie. He was somebody on stage with seemingly nothing to lose. His message is a clear warning to voters about Donald Trump and the rest of his competition.

And that's been his message from the beginning. Here he is in the NewsNation debate. Folks like these three guys on the stage make it seem like his conduct is acceptable. Let me make it clear. His conduct is unacceptable. He's unfit and be careful of what you're going to get. If you ever got another Donald Trump term, he's letting you know, I am your retribution. He will only be, Elizabeth, he will only be his own retribution. He doesn't care for the American people. It's Donald Trump first. You know,

Domenico, you alluded to this a moment ago, but ultimately, does this matter? What does this achieve for Christie or for the party? Yeah, I mean, look, he's one of, he is the only candidate who's deciding to take this tack to be able to talk about it. And, you know, he accused the other candidates of Trump being Voldemort, you know, he, the candidate who will not be named. And we saw them take very sort of delicate jabs at Trump, really trying to walk a line. And, you know, the thing is for Christie, he just wants this to be out there because he really doesn't think that Trump should be president again. And whether he convinces some Republicans of that or independents who might be listening for the general election, that's really what he's after here. He's really a man with

nothing to lose. Now, another major point that came up throughout the debate a couple of times, was it had to do with gender identity and transgender health care for minors. Even if it wasn't the topic of the question being asked, people seem to want to talk about it. So Rhonda Santos and Vivek Ramaswamy have pushed for greater restrictions on gender-affirming health care for minors. Domenico, is this a topic that's going to play in a general election? You know, it just depends. You know, sometimes Republicans seem to have the upper hand when it comes to this issue, because when you look at gender identity, it's very sensitive. It's a difficult subject to talk about. But, you know, Republicans tend to sometimes go a little too far with this in the sort of, you could see as like a lack of empathy

toward families of, you know, kids who are dealing with this issue. And that really kind of shows itself on the stage. And I think it depends on how they balance discussing this, how they balance talking about it rather than being so hyperbolic. I mean when DeSantis just repeatedly uses the word mutilation, I don't know that that kind of thing, that kind of word really plays well with persuadable voters. Yeah, I mean, the polling I've seen on this issue is kind of complex. And I think, you know, we've seen Nikki Haley try to avoid the most controversial aspects of this issue. But I think you saw DeSantis trying to push her a little bit, come at her from the right and sort of pin her down on this question. So, you know, it's hard to say. Maybe

it's a popular issue with base voters, but it's hard to say how it would play out in a general election. In the 2022 midterms, for example, the exit polls asked, you know, our society's values on gender identity and sexual orientation, changing for the better, changing for the worse, or not getting better or worse. 50% said that it's changing for the worse. Eight in 10 Republicans felt that way. So, you know, they have some degree of an upper hand here, but it just depends on how far you go, because I think that people also want to show a degree of empathy for people who are dealing with this issue, for families that are dealing with this issue. And when you use words like mutilation and repeat it over and over again, the way that Ron DeSantis, the Florida governor,

did, you know, it can really turn off some persuadable voters. Okay, let's take a break and we'll be back in just a moment. Hey there, it's Susan Davis with a quick but very sincere thank you to our NPR Politics Plus supporters and anyone listening who donates to public media. After all, public media means you, the public, support it. And everything you hear from the NPR network really cannot exist without your contributions. For anyone listening who isn't a supporter yet, right now is a great time to change that, for you to get invested in creating a more informed public. That is our whole mission at NPR, and that's why we're here.

If you like perks, NPR Politics Plus offers sponsor-free episodes and extra bonus episodes of the show, including our trivia game that we play with a listener. And if you want to make a tax-deductible donation to your favorite station or stations in the NPR network, that's great, too. What really matters is that you are part of the community that makes this work possible. Journalists across the NPR network need resources to do their best work, and those resources cost money. Microphones, laptops, safety gear, software, whatever amount you can pitch in makes a real difference. So please give today at donate.npr.org slash politics or explore NPR Plus at plus.npr.org. And thank you. And we're back.

Now, I know when I've been in New Hampshire, for example, talking to voters, Republican voters at campaign events, I do hear a desire for an alternative to Donald Trump. But those are the kinds of voters that go to campaign events for other candidates in New Hampshire. So, you know, Ximena, when you talk to voters across the country, does this kind of messaging break through? You know, I hear the exact same thing when I not only go to rallies, but just stop college students on a college campus or go to a bar and talk to folks that are just hanging out. There are folks on both sides of the aisle that are yearning for other alternatives. But I think the biggest question for not only young Republicans,

but Republicans generally is, you know, you might not like Donald Trump's conduct. You might not like his attitude or the way he goes about saying things or his policies. But if you identify as Republican, is that enough to just not vote for him? And I've also spoken with many folks who say they don't like it, but ultimately he might be the nominee. It's looking surely that way. And they are still going to vote Republican, even if he is. And the clock is ticking here.

I mean, you know, there is not going to be a conviction in any of the Trump trials. If, you know, he is convicted, there's not gonna be a verdict before there are enough delegates that are allocated to win the Republican presidential nomination. I mean, you know, 70% of the delegates are going to be decided by the end of March. His first trial starts in March. So, you know, this is something that is not going to be changing any Republican voters' minds. And the ship is sailing here. You know, you hear sometimes pundits talk about maybe voters will change their mind. Maybe they'll be worried about Trump's, you know, legal vulnerabilities. But when is that going to happen? You know, when is the moment for that to occur? We're 40 days away from the Iowa caucuses and Trump has like a 30-point lead there. So I don't think it's breaking through right now. So Domenico, did this debate, what happened tonight, do anything to move the needle as we head toward that first nominating contest? You know, it's difficult to say. I mean, I was actually really struck by the fact that you had an all female panel asking questions and you

didn't have the one issue that has really plagued Republican candidates across the board in the last several elections, and we're talking about women's reproductive rights and abortion, just didn't come up. It came up in the last debate, but they didn't talk about it in this debate, and they've certainly recycled a lot of their answers from previous debates. So for me, that was one big takeaway that I was surprised we didn't get a mention of. Pimena, do you think this changes anything? I do think my big take is the attention that the candidates are choosing to draw against each other and particularly against Nikki Haley, as opposed to as we have spent a lot of time in this podcast talking about the front runner, Donald Trump.

And I think that that does kind of speak to how they might also see it as, you know, what many people are calling this a race for second place, as opposed to actually a race for the presidency. You know, I doubt that this moves the needle very much. But I do think, again, that it established Nikki Haley as the person to be that principal alternative to Trump. And I think that matters. All right, let's leave it there. We'll be back in your feeds tomorrow. I'm Sarah McCammon. I cover the presidential campaign. I'm Ximena Bustián. I cover politics. And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.