The NPR Politics Podcast - Special Counsel Appointed For Russia Probe

Episode Date: May 18, 2017

Former FBI Director Robert Mueller will investigate Russia's meddling in last year's election, and any possible collusion by the Trump campaign. This episode: host/congressional reporter Scott Detrow, congressional correspondent Susan Davis, and national political correspondent Mara Liasson. More coverage at nprpolitics.org. Email the show at [e-mail]. Find and support your local public radio station at npr.org/stations.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast here to talk about the news that Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein has appointed a special counsel to investigate Russian meddling in the 2016 election and whether or not that included collusion or collaboration with anyone tied to President Donald Trump's presidential campaign. This is something Democrats have been demanding for months and something the Trump administration and Republican leaders had resisted. The special counsel is a familiar name, former FBI Director Robert Mueller, who held that job for 12 years. I'm Scott Detrow. I cover Congress for NPR. I'm Susan Davis. I also cover Congress. And I'm Mara Liason, national political correspondent. A quick note, our things may have changed

by the time you hear this timestamp. Yes, it's becoming a running joke at this point. We recorded a podcast today and things changed before you even heard it. We have not even posted that podcast yet. So here's what we're doing. Both of you are in both of them. I'm just hanging out here,

but that podcast is posted in your feed too. It's a big picture look at the last few days of news, including that major development, the report that President Trump asked James Comey in the Oval Office to let go of the FBI investigation into Michael Flynn, the former national security adviser. So that's there. Listen to it. A lot of stuff there. Here we are going to dig into this Mueller news. So, Morrow, what does this mean? What this means is that all of a sudden the investigation into possible collusion between Donald Trump's campaign and the Russians has gotten a heck of a lot more credibility. Robert Mueller was praised from both sides of the aisle.

It tells you so many things. Rod Rosenstein, the deputy attorney general, really rose to the occasion. He was used as a human shield by Donald Trump when he fired James Comey, the FBI director, in the first blush. The White House blamed it, or at least said Rod Rosenstein had made the recommendation. It was all his idea. It was all his idea. Of course, Donald Trump contradicted that pretty fast. But then we had the report of a memo that Comey had written contemporaneously when he says in this memo, according to people who've had it read to them, that the president asked him, as you just said, to let go of the investigation into Michael Flynn, which is the investigation into potential Russian collusion. It sounds like Comey's firing,

the news of the memo really did crystallize this decision of Rod Rosenstein's. And he announced it today and the White House got very little notice, just about an hour. And we'll circle back to that in a second. But first, Sue, this is something Democrats have been calling for for months, demanding a special prosecutor, also demanding a special investigation, demanding a special counsel. They're also demanding an independent congressional investigation. But that's another thing. But, Sue, they got what they wanted. How are they responding? You know, the choice of Mueller, I think, was a very stabilizing decision on both sides of this equation. Mueller is widely respected across the political spectrum. I spoke to both Republicans

and Democrats tonight who praised the decision. I talked to Lamar Smith, who is a top Republican on the Judiciary Committee, who does not believe that a special counsel is necessary. But he said if there has to be a special counsel, Mueller is the guy for it to be. And Sue, just before we keep going, can you give like the back of the baseball card bio of Robert Mueller for people who don't know him? Robert Mueller is one of the longest serving directors of the FBI in history. He and J. Edgar Hoover are the two longest serving directors. He came into the job just days before 9-11 and served over the course of sort of the peak years of the war on terror years. And he was so well respected that Barack Obama, when he came into office, extended his term. FBI directors serve 10-year

terms. Barack Obama extended it for, I believe, two years. Interestingly, one of the things he did at the FBI was he implemented the first cyber team, which is now, as we talk about Russian meddling in the investigation and hacking, is something that he is known to be sort of particularly interested in. He's a bit of a cyber geek. And one of the reasons why I think in the investigation and hacking is something that he is known to be sort of particularly interested in. He's a bit of a cyber geek. And one of the reasons why I think personality-wise and politically, he was a really smart choice. One of the things he's always been known for is he keeps a very low profile. He rarely gave media interviews. He was not well-known publicly. And he was known. And that was something that both

Democratic and Republican administrations liked. He was seen as running a very apolitical FBI. And that is something we that word apolitical is something that we have heard a lot when it comes to the Russian investigation. So yes, there has been not I have not seen yet this evening, any negative reaction to this decision. So is it reassured? Is it emboldened? What's the way that you would describe the reaction to this, particularly from Democrats on the Hill? Well, I think broadly, the word I would use is stabilizing. I think there was a sense that this was sort of spinning out of control up here, the calls for special counsel, the calls for a select committee. One effect, I talked to Elijah Cummings, who's the top Democrat

on the Oversight Committee. He did say that this could maybe potentially take the heat off of the pressure to do a select committee. And I also think that the timing of it is really interesting. Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein is coming up to Capitol Hill tomorrow, and he is going to be meeting in a private all senators briefing where he was expected to face some very pointed questions about his role in the firing of James Comey. And Rosenstein's reputation has also been called into question in this in the firing of Comey. So I think it was a very stabilizing move. And another point that Cummings made that I thought was a good point is that he said he had spoken to agents inside the FBI and that he thought that Mueller would be very good for FBI morale, that he's very respected inside the building. And doing this would send a message to the agents that they were basically in the process of making this a done deal before they gave the White House

relatively short notice. So what should we make of that? Because this is the way this decision was made. Rod Rosenstein has the authority to make this decision on his own. He really rose to the occasion. And as Sue said, he kind of acted to restore his own reputation and his own credibility, just as he's about to appear before Congress. But the White House did release a statement. And before they did, I was wondering, how would they react to this? They have resisted a special counsel. They've said over and over again, one is not necessary. But the statement from the president says, as I have stated many times, a thorough investigation will confirm what we already know. There was no collusion between my campaign and any foreign entity. I look forward to this

matter concluding quickly. And what's really interesting about that is that if the president's goal in firing Comey was to get this investigation stopped or over with, that hasn't happened. I think there are some good things and some bad things in this decision for the White House. Number one, if Mueller concludes the investigation and says that Donald Trump and his campaign is innocent of any collusion, that conclusion will have a lot of credibility. Because he's a figure of stature. People will believe it. And I think that the bad news is that special counsels often take a very long time. So if Donald Trump, as he just said in his statement, wants this wrapped up quickly, that probably

won't happen. But good news, it'll get a new FBI director, whoever it is that Trump picks, confirmed more quickly because Democrats were saying they were going to hold this up until they got a special counsel. You know, there's a lot of good news and bad news in this for the White House. One other thing, good news for the White House, Mueller is known as someone who doesn't leak. As Sue said, he keeps a low profile and he runs a very, very tight ship. Bad news is this point in time. It says it is looking into any links or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump and any matters that arose or may arise directly on the investigation and any other matters within the scope of this specific statute. But that second point, any other things that arose, can we assume that that would include

this issue we learned about yesterday? Any improper conversation, pressure on the FBI from the White House? Absolutely. It's related. It has to do with this investigation. I think the one thing we have learned over the years with special counsels is they can go in a lot of different directions and there's almost no limit on what they can go in a lot of different directions. And there's almost no limit on what they can look into. Sue, Democrats got what they want here. They want something else, a special independent commission outside of the House and Senate investigation into all of this. Any sense that this makes that more or less likely?

You know, it's hard to say. One thing that in separate statements, House Speaker Paul Ryan and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell both said the House and Senate intelligence investigations and other committee investigations will continue. The existing investigations will not be deterred and they can happen on the same track as the FBI investigation. Republicans don't want to do an independent or select commission. The closest similarity would be to the 9-11 commission, which is what Democrats are calling for. That commission would be made up of 12 people appointed equally by Republicans and Democrats to independently investigate what's going on. It's unlikely to happen right now, but I don't think we can say for forever because I would also note that the 9-11 commission was initially resisted by many Republicans in Congress in the Bush administration.

And it did not – legislation to create it didn't happen until more than a year after the 9-11 attacks. And Congress had done oversight, of course, in the meantime. So I think the answer to that question is it depends where the congressional investigations go. So far, the lead investigation is in the Senate Intelligence Committee. And by every account, that investigation is happening in a bipartisan fashion. It's being done very seriously. And leadership is giving them the room to do what they need to do. And today, they were one of a couple different committees contacting the FBI and saying, hey, we want these Comey memos.

Yes. And they want James Comey to come before them and testify both in private and in public so the public can hear what he has to say. So it depends on what happens with the congressional investigations. They seem to have some element of credibility right now. If that were to change, if they were to issue reports suggesting that maybe a select commission might be necessary. But I think in the short term, in the meantime, a special prosecutor is going to take a lot of wind out of Democrats saying that that commission is needed right now. Do either of you know where the special counsel fits in here? Do they work out of the Justice Department? Do they work out of the FBI? How do they fit into the workflow chart? Well, the investigation is being conducted by prosecutors in the Justice Department and FBI

agents. I mean, it's all out of DOJ. You know, the only other thing to say here is what's really not clear, the statement from the White House was so cryptic. And you have to wonder, is Donald Trump happy or furious about this? We know he did not want Jeff Sessions to recuse himself. He was angry that Jeff Sessions recused himself from the Russia matter. Jeff Sessions felt he had to because he had met with the Russian ambassador and failed to tell the Senate about it when asked. But that's going to be really interesting to watch. 6 a.m. is tweet o'clock. And it was surprising when President Trump didn't tweet.

6 p.m. has become news o'clock, and it was surprising when President Trump didn't tweet. 6 p.m. has become news o'clock. And Sue, there was one other thing in that magical breaking news hour that scrambles your entire day that happened right at the same time. The Washington Post had a story reporting that House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy was recorded in a private meeting telling colleagues that he thought Vladimir Putin was paying Donald Trump. What is going on with that story? So this is a story by Adam Entous, who's a Washington Post reporter with a dateline of Kiev. So he's over in Ukraine.

And in his story, he recounts, he listened to a recording of the conversation. It is unclear what the source of the recording was, but he says he heard a conversation during a meeting that included Kevin McCarthy and House Speaker Paul Ryan, where McCarthy says in this June 15th, 2016 recording, quote, there's two people I think Putin pays, Rohrabacher and Trump. Rohrabacher in this context is Congressman Dana Rohrabacher. He's a Republican from California and then Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump. In this recording, the speaker then interjects McCarthy and says, stops the conversation and says, let's just move on from that conversation. Both the speaker's office and the majority leader's office have said tonight it was a joke. It was a joke that the majority leader was making in a tonight, it was a joke. It was a joke that the majority leader was making in a meeting. It was nothing more than that. There was laughter in the recording and the conversation moves on. But of course, that's a pretty provocative quote,

right? There's two people. So I think in a standalone news cycle, without all of the other Russia smoke, this would not be as seen as big of a deal of a story. But add this little nugget on top of everything else, it certainly just does not make the Republican leadership look that good. I did speak to Dana Rohrabacher tonight, and he was asked about the comment. He completely agreed with McCarthy's assertion and the Speaker's assertion. And I would note that Rohrabacher is not always a friend to leadership. He's always happy to criticize party leadership. But he also interpreted it as a joke, that it was meant as a joke. hearing and made fun of people who suggest that cow farts contributed to global warming. And he made a joke about dinosaur farts causing the end of the dinosaurs. And he said now people to this day think that he believes the dinosaur flatulence was a

problem. I don't think there's any better way to end this podcast than on dinosaur farts. With farting dinosaurs. Yes. Who knows what tomorrow will bring? All right. That is going to be a wrap for this one. A reminder that this is just an entree

to a much larger podcast that we also recorded today that's taking a look at everything else that has happened the last few days. So check that out, too. All right. It's just about 8 o'clock. Who knows what else will happen tonight. For now, I'm going to go drink a beer and watch some baseball. I'm Scott Detrow. I cover Congress for NPR. I'm Susan Davis. I also cover Congress.

And I'm Mara Liason, national political correspondent. Thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.