The NPR Politics Podcast - States Are Preparing For A Possible Post-Roe Future

Episode Date: April 28, 2022

The Supreme Court is considering a case that could significantly weaken the right to abortion — or even scrap it entirely. With Roe V. Wade on shaky ground, Republican-led states are already passing laws to ban or heavily restrict abortion, while Democratic state legislatures are taking steps to guarantee the right to end a pregnancy This episode: White House correspondent Tamara Keith, national correspondent Sarah McCammon, Catherine Sweeney of State Impact Oklahoma, and Bente Birkeland of Colorado Public Radio. Support the show and unlock sponsor-free listening with a subscription to The NPR Politics Podcast Plus. Learn more at plus.npr.org/politics Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hi, this is Melissa, and I just returned from Belfast, where my son was competing in the 50th annual World Irish Step Dance Championships, or as I like to call them, Riverdance Olympics. This podcast was recorded at 1.56pm on Thursday, the 28th of April. Things may have changed by the time you hear this, but I will still be hearing Irish jigs in my head. Okay, here's the show. But see, our music isn't an Irish jig. I wish that you had recorded some sound. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House and we've got Sarah McCammon here. Hey, Sarah. Hey, Tam. Long time friend of the pod. And Sarah, you cover abortion and reproductive

rights issues for NPR. And today we are talking about the future of abortion access in America. The Supreme Court is on the cusp of ruling in cases that could significantly weaken the right to abortion established in Roe versus Wade, or maybe even scrap it entirely. And Sarah, states are already preparing because there hasn't been a major challenge heard by the high court to Roe in a long time. Right. And there has been a lot of activity in state legislatures really the last few years as during the Trump administration, as the balance of the court started to move to the right, we saw a lot more legislative activity around abortion and quite a lot this year. As of mid April, according to the Guttmacher Institute, a research group that supports abortion rights, close to 2000 bills were introduced nationwide in state legislatures, some of those related to expanding abortion rights, others related to restricting it. Nine states passed restrictions, seven passed protective

measures. But yes, a lot of activity around this issue looking ahead to the Supreme Court decision, which I think most legal observers expect to at minimum weaken the protections of Roe versus Wade and other precedent guaranteeing abortion rights, if not overturn it altogether. So one state that has been really active is Oklahoma. And we are joined now by Catherine Sweeney. She's a health reporter from Oklahoma's NPR stations. Hi, Catherine. Hi. So earlier this month, the governor of Oklahoma signed a major abortion law. I believe the legislature just today passed another one. Catherine, what's going on in Oklahoma? Oklahoma is pretty accustomed to seeing a lot of abortion bills. It's very typical for state lawmakers in Oklahoma to file these restriction bills, especially in an election year. But given

the changes on the Supreme Court, the pressure's turned up a bit. It's more likely that these bills will not be struck down by the courts now, more likely now than it has been. So we've seen a dozen bills that would restrict abortion, but two are getting a lot of attention. So the first one, like you said, it passed earlier this month, and that would make it a felony for any medical provider to perform an abortion, but it doesn't affect the patient. Lawmakers passed another bill just today. It passed out of the House and over to the governor's desk, and it's a copycat bill, the Texas law that's last year. So that bill, as I'm sure anybody who's been following abortion remembers, it depends on civil lawsuits from private citizens for enforcement. In the past, courts have struck down abortion bills that have restricted abortion and used state powers to enforce them. This

depends on private citizens. So that mechanism has withstood court battles in the past, and conservative Oklahoma lawmakers are hopeful that it will pass muster here in Oklahoma as well. Oklahoma Governor Kevin Stitt, he actually promised to sign every abortion bill that restricts abortion that comes across his desk. We want Oklahoma to be the most pro-life state in the country. We want to outlaw abortion in the state of Oklahoma. You know, Catherine makes a good point here. These abortion restrictions, they take a lot of different forms. Of course, we have the Texas-style laws, which really don't criminalize the procedure, but rely instead on civil enforcement, on just

essentially the threat of huge fines and court costs to prevent abortions from taking place. Then there are abortion bans, like the one in Mississippi that's currently before the Supreme Court, banning abortion after 15 weeks. That's well before viability, which is really important to the current standard. And then there are a host of other restrictions and regulations, some of them regulating how abortions can be performed, who can perform them. So it takes a lot of different forms. And the strategy from abortion rights opponents really is to see what will stick, pass a lot of different legislation and hope that the courts will uphold it.

One important thing to note about Oklahoma is geography, right? Oklahoma is very close to Texas. And as I understand it, Catherine, has become a place where people from Texas are going because Texas has become so impossible. That is true. In the past, before the new law went into effect, it was typical for 20 or so Texans to come to Oklahoma a month for their services. That would be, you know, because they live near the Oklahoma border. It might be easier to get to Oklahoma a month for their services. That would be, you know, because they live near the Oklahoma border. It might be easier to get to Oklahoma City than Dallas. After the Texas law went into place, that actually jumped to hundreds of Texans every month coming to Oklahoma. I've talked with abortion providers in Oklahoma who are saying they already are at a point where they can't answer every phone

call they get. They can't serve every person who tries to book an appointment. They're really concerned about where those people in Oklahoma and Texas will go if Oklahoma loses its ability to perform abortions as well. I've also talked with abortion providers, especially one named Rebecca Tong at Trust Women Oklahoma. She pointed out something that I think is really important to remember, which is higher income or wealthier Oklahomans have the ability to travel. They'll be able to hop on a flight and go to California or, you know, God forbid in the future, hop on a flight and have to go to Canada. She said that really these bans only affect the people who don't have the capacity to travel like that. Well, Catherine Sweeney in Oklahoma, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Thank you so much for having me. We're going to take a quick break. And when we get back, more about how the abortion debate is playing out at the state level. And we're back. And Binta Birkeland of Colorado Public Radio joins us now. Hey there. Hi. So we've been discussing how Roe versus Wade could be on shaky ground. And while the country waits for the Supreme Court decision, some Democratic-led states are taking their own steps to enshrine the right to abortion, sort of the other side of the coin to what's happening in places like Oklahoma and Texas. So you are in one of those states that has been taking action.

What does it look like in Colorado? Yeah, that's right. Colorado lawmakers passed what's called the Reproductive Health Equity Act. And this cleared the Democratic state legislature. It was on a strictly party line vote. And Colorado's Democratic Governor Jared Polis has signed it into law. to abortion in state law, advocates for this bill said it was important for Colorado to codify reproductive health protections because they are worrying about the U.S. Supreme Court potentially overturning or significantly weakening Roe v. Wade this summer. And then Democrats in Colorado are seeing Republican-led states already have near total abortion bans in place. I mean, I interviewed a woman in February who lives in Texas and went to Colorado for an emergency procedure. She was losing a pregnancy and couldn't get a termination in Texas. So she went to Colorado because it was the closest place she could get to that could get her an appointment, which really underscores another challenge for

people seeking abortions. The more these states restrict them, the more burden there is on the existing infrastructure in states that have less restrictive laws. And Colorado definitely has been one of those. Benta, Colorado is a state that traditionally I would think of as like a purple state, not a deep blue state. Is it surprising that this is happening in Colorado? Or has Colorado changed a lot? Yeah. You know, in recent years, it's looking pretty blue because Democrats control state government and the U.S. Senate seats and things like that. But Colorado has a really interesting history when it comes to access to abortion. in 1967, Colorado became the first state in the nation to decriminalize abortion. That was in cases of rape and incest or where there could be a permanent physical disability for the woman. But I wasn't too surprised when we were seeing what was happening nationally with Democrats in charge that we would see something like this. I think it'll be interesting to see what happens when it goes to voters in terms of driving turnout and that type of thing.

And that's expected in 2024 to just put it in the state constitution. Sarah, Colorado is not the only state where Democrats are in control. Is this part of a larger trend? It is. I mean, just as we were talking about more conservative-leaning legislatures passing abortion restrictions, Democratic-controlled states have been pushing in the opposite direction. And this is something that reproductive rights groups have been really advocating for, both taking old laws off the books that might still be in place that would restrict abortion and passing what they call proactive measures to try to guarantee abortion rights. So along with Colorado,

other states like New Jersey and Washington have put similar protections into state law. And then some states are just taking practical steps to try to expand abortion access. So Oregon, California, and Maryland all passed laws requiring insurers to cover abortion, at least in some situations. And some states are trying to expand the categories of providers who can offer abortion, letting advanced practice clinicians like nurse practitioners and physician assistants provide the procedure. That's the case in Maryland and Washington as of this year with new legislation. Maryland also went a step further and actually set aside about three and a half million dollars in state funding each year to help pay for training for abortion providers. So we're really seeing kind of a push-pull tug of war, so to speak, in these state legislatures. Very quickly, and I fear there is not a quick answer and there may not even be an answer,

but I want to ask about the politics of this, because for so long, abortion has been an animating issue for conservatives and it has not driven turnout for Democrats in the same way. where abortion rights might be restricted because of a Supreme Court decision. Does that change the political calculus? Does that change who is animated by this issue? I think it has to. The question is how much. I mean, we certainly saw in, you know, the 2018 midterms after the election of Donald Trump, sort of a blue wave in many states. You might see something similar for Democrats in response to the Supreme Court decision this summer, depending on what happens. Certainly seeing reproductive rights groups talking about organizing around this issue. And I would just point out that, you know, a majority of Americans support Roe and have for decades. I mean, that is pretty stable polling by Gallup and others suggest that the public supports abortion rights. Less so as you get further along in a pregnancy.

But there is pretty broad and longstanding support for Roe v. Wade. So if it suddenly went away, what kind of response would that trigger is, I think, a big question and something that we will see and we are seeing campaigns organized around. All right. Well, let's leave it there for now. We, of course, will be covering that Supreme Court decision when it comes, possibly in June. We're not sure that's traditionally when those decisions come. Binta Birkeland, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. And Sarah, thanks as always. Thanks for having me. And Sarah,

thanks as always. My pleasure as always. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.