The NPR Politics Podcast - Texas Immigration Law SB4: Here's The Latest

Episode Date: March 21, 2024

Texas has a controversial immigration law that, if implemented, would empower local law enforcement to enforce federal immigration law. It's a reminder that immigration isn't going anywhere this campaign season and that the politics are more complicated than you might think.This episode: political correspondent Susan Davis, immigration correspondent Jasmine Garsd, political reporter Ximena Bustillo, and White House correspondent Franco Ordoñez.Our producers are Jeongyoon Han, Casey Morell & Kelli Wessinger. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Listen to every episode of the NPR Politics Podcast sponsor-free, unlock access to bonus episodes with more from the NPR Politics team, and support public media when you sign up for The NPR Politics Podcast+ at plus.npr.org/politics.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Autograph Collection Hotels, with over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of hotel brands. Find the unforgettable at AutographCollection.com. Hi, I'm Cal from Santa Cruz, California. I have just finished my last final for winter quarter at UC Santa Cruz. This podcast was recorded at 1.35 p.m. on Thursday, March 21st. Things may have changed by the time you hear it, but I will be enjoying my spring break as much as I can before it all starts up again next quarter.

Okay, here's the show and go banana slugs. Banana slugs. Now that is a mascot I've never heard of before. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. And I'm Ximena Bustillo and I also cover politics. And NPR's Jasmine Garz covers immigration, and she joins us today. Hey there. Hi. So today on the podcast, we're going to be talking about immigration law and immigration politics. And Jasmine, I'm sure our listeners have seen a slew of confusing headlines about a new Texas law, often shorthanded as SB4, that allows local police to arrest people they suspect of entering the country illegally. Let's start with this. What is this law supposed to do? Sure. So this particular law

is about people coming into the country undocumented, crossing into Texas undocumented. And what it's supposed to do is it gives local and state law enforcement, you know, state troopers, police, sheriffs, the power to arrest someone based on the suspicion port of entry and send them back to Mexico, even if that person is not from Mexico. Oh, wow. But where does it stand right now in the courts? So this week, the Supreme Court gave Texas the green light to go ahead and start enforcing this law. A few hours later, a federal court of appeals said, hold it right there. We want to hear arguments about this. So the law is on hold. The law is not in effect. And this court of appeals, they heard arguments on Wednesday. Do you know what the sense is from law enforcement groups in Texas of whether they have been endorsing or opposing this law? It's a mixed bag.

You have, for example, the police in Houston. I mean, they've indicated that they don't like this law and that it's going to cause like an environment of mistrust in this community that they're supposed to serve. And I think, you know, one of the big concerns from people who are against this law is racial profiling. How are you going to be able to tell who looks like they are an undocumented immigrant who just crossed, which that's over and over the challenge we've seen. And I'm glad you brought that up because, Jimena, you're reporting from Arizona, and this is a state that has a history with laws very similar to this one, and it still seems to cast a long shadow in the politics of that state. It definitely does. So Arizona had SB 1070 in 2010, and it really does mirror SB 4 in Texas right now. It was called the Show Me Your Papers law, and it empowered local law enforcement to ask, you know, those suspected of being migrants or undocumented migrants for their documentation during things like routine traffic stops. And so same as in Texas, it led to concerns that, well, what does this suspicion look like? It's going to be racial profiling. And so that

created a lot of fear amongst the immigrant community, regardless of their status, right? Fear of driving, being out of the house, being stopped, and you happen to not have your papers, or what if you actually are undocumented? So there are definitely a lot of emotional and economic impacts felt from those communities, people that left the area, people that were just genuinely very afraid during the time that this bill was looking to become law. It is interesting because you can see the conflict here of why having a patchwork of state laws conflicts with federal immigration law. And this fight between the states and the federal government right now is playing out all over the country. Jasmine, I know that you've also done reporting in Florida that has also passed more aggressive immigration laws in recent years.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I was in Florida recently and looking into the impact of one of the most aggressive immigration laws in the country. The law basically cracks down on employers who use undocumented labor. It also prohibits undocumented people from having a driver's license. You know, what's really interesting with Florida is the economic impact. I think that's really fascinating. I went to immigrant communities throughout Florida who most people told me they estimate about 30% of undocumented people left in Florida, and they headed north. Since when?

Since the law was passed close to a year ago. You know, every single industry I spoke to, whether it was roofing, whether it was hoteliers, restaurants, farms, especially, told me we've been really impacted by this. And that's something that just really fascinates me, right? I mean, I think there's like a political line of thinking here. And then there's like an economic line of thinking about, you know, labor shortages in the US, and they're not always aligned. I'm curious, in both of your field reporting, I mean, Texas, Arizona, Florida, these are all states with significant Latino population, significant Latino voting populations.

But this issue doesn't sort of cut cleanly politically. I wonder what you have heard from them. I mean, it doesn't cut cleanly in part because of some of that economic sense, right? You know, you have these local businesses, you have these industries that, you know, are family businesses or do rely on undocumented labor, historically have. And so it doesn't cut cleanly politically. It doesn't cut cleanly at the personal level either because it's people's jobs, it's people's livelihoods.

And so I think that's what makes the issues really interesting and also very complicated. Jasmine, how do when you talk to people about sort of these mass deportations and this idea that is certainly taken hold within the Republican Party, how much support do you think it has among the people you talk to? Okay, like, let me give you an example, right? I went to Fort Myers recently in Florida, and I was working in a neighborhood that's largely immigrant, where I know there's a substantial amount of undocumented immigrants. And all of a sudden, I'm in the parking lot, and it's a very Hispanic neighborhood. And I see this white car covered, completely covered in Trump 2024 Make America Great Again decals. The car belongs to

the ice cream shop owner, who's an immigrant himself from Switzerland. His name is Thomas Howiter. And I asked him, you know, you're obviously really passionate about this candidate. And the centerpiece of his platform is he's going to deport a chunk of your customers. I don't know how that's going to be. You know, I mean, it's certainly criminals, people with a record, they need to go. I think the first thing is secure that border. And then let's decide what we can do with the people already all here. We need workers. We need people. secure that border, and then let's decide what we're going to do with the people already all here.

We need workers. We need people. I mean, to just deport millions of people is maybe a little bit of a problem. But that is exactly what Trump is campaigning on. Yeah. No, I know. And I keep hearing it over and over again, which is, well, I don't think he's going to really do it. He's a big talker. And also, we can't do it because we really rely on that labor. You know, I've heard a lot of that in Arizona, too. And there are folks who do buy into the argument that the former president does say and Republicans do say where there is a right and a legal way to do things. And if they had to do that, others have to do it, too. And it's a very black and white situation. All right, Jasmine, we're going to let you go. But thank you so much for your reporting. It was great to talk to you. Thank you. We're going to take a quick break and

we'll talk more on the presidential politics of all this when we get back. And we're back and the inimitable Franco Ordonez is here. Thank you so much, Franco. It's great to be here. Obviously, we're talking about immigration. And it has been nearly 40 years since the federal government has overhauled the immigration system. This is an issue that Washington just can't seem to crack, no matter who's in power. Franco, I'm going to give you the heavy responsibility of trying to articulate why has it been so difficult? Man, I mean, I've been covering the White House, obviously, for a number of years now.

But for a long time, I covered immigration. And there is no issue that I can think of, maybe gun control, gun safety, that has been so emotional, so divisive, just kind of wrenching for people emotionally and politically than immigration. I mean, it's just been a slog. I mean, both sides are just so divided on this issue. I mean, I think what's fascinating really is how the conversation has changed from back in 2013 when there was actually a chance of some type of large immigration package when senators, the gang of Eight, some of our listeners may

remember, put together a package that included strong border enforcement, but also a path to citizenship, money for border patrol, a big package. And it passed the Senate, but didn't go beyond. But now it's completely different. I was actually talking with Leon Fresco. He was actually a staffer for Senator Chuck Schumer at the time. He was the guy at the keyboard who wrote the legislation. And I asked him, you know, what happened over in that time? And he talked about how in 2012, you had just had an election and Obama had just won and Republicans were really having a, you know, come to Jesus moment and thinking that they needed to have a bigger tent and they thought they needed people don't necessarily correlate any more immigration and the Latino vote as being linked in any way, meaning whether you have Trump or whether you have Romney or whether you have McCain or whether you have anyone. attracting Latinos through immigration or through this issue. And he said what they're doing more is actually raising or stoking their Republican base by warning that these immigrants or these migrants that you were talking with Jasmine and Ximena about that are coming over are actually

potentially, this is the conspiracy theory, that they're coming over and they're recruiting them to be new Democratic voters. There used to be much more of a middle on immigration on what needed to get done. But the parties have moved further and further apart, almost like you said, the gun issue is as intractable as the gun issue. And I think in 2024, immigration is an issue where the policies of Joe Biden and Donald Trump are starkly different, not just in the policy, but frankly, with the rhetoric. Absolutely with the rhetoric. I mean, Biden came into office promising a more humane policy. He came in, got rid of funding for the border wall, promised that there would never be another inch of border wall built. He backed off on that a little bit, I will note.

He's backed off on a lot of things. A lot of things. He ended the travel ban. He introduced legislation that would provide a path to citizenship. Obviously, Trump is kind of the extreme, extreme opposite, talking about wants to, in 2024, part of his campaign, like it was before, is to build a wall, to do another travel ban, to mass deportation, as you guys were talking about earlier. I will say, though, Biden has interestingly shifted in the last few months as the problems on the border have become more challenging. He has started to incorporate some of the language that some would say Trump's language of talking about shutting the border down, supporting legislation that senators, a bipartisan group of senators tried to move forward that would have been

some of the most extreme enforcement measures past ever. But obviously, that fell apart, largely because Trump urged Republicans not to support it. Amanda, what are you hearing in Arizona about the presidential election and the issue of immigration? I mean, Arizona is in such a particular situation right now because it is the presidential swing state that is on the border. And it is kind of seeing the ripple effects of what's happening in other states along the border. So when Texas closes ports of entry, when Texas is not an appealing place for migrants to go, in part, that flow has been pushed west along the border to states like New Mexico and particularly Arizona. So that means two things. First, you do have more migrants coming in through ports of entry

and through other parts along the Arizona border. But also second, you know, any sort of commercial traffic is also coming in through Arizona. And so there has been this sort of dual two-sided coin of how do you deal with the pressures of intake of a larger flow of migration, but also you are seeing this interesting economic benefit of just natural cross-border international trade coming through your state. Franco mentioned kind of the language of shut the border. One thing

that I think is really interesting is that in some areas, you know, for folks who have supported the former president for a really long time, you know, they echo that as well. They want to shut the border. They want to close the border. And that's the language that's used. I just spent some time in some more rural, smaller border towns here along the U.S.-Mexico border in Arizona. Even people who do support the former president and do lean Republican, they say that the language of closing and shutting the border is actually really scary to them because that means no cross-border trade. That means that the natural relationship between Mexico and U.S. border towns where people cross every day for work,

to go on dates, to have dinner, to shop. That won't happen. And that devastates local economies, rural local economies on the ground. I'm glad you brought that up. And Jasmine referenced it in the beginning, because to me, I think that when you look at poll after poll after poll in this cycle, and they say, what do you care about? Voters say they care about the economy and they care about immigration. They're regularly listed as top issues. But I almost think you can't separate those two. Immigration, sure, it's a cultural issue, but it is also very much an economic issue.

And this seems to be one issue where more acutely with the Republican Party, their immigration position runs counter to the idea that they can grow the economy because if you want to mass deport immigrants who are a vital part of the American workforce federal government came down to close the Lukeville port here in Arizona in December. And that was an immediate reminder to Arizonans across the state of the impacts of border politics federally impacting their lives. When that port closed, you know, that really impacted cross-border traffic. There were people that wanted to do holiday shopping that were not allowed to. People, you know, middle-class suburban families in Maricopa County, which is the swing county, that want to go to Mexico because it's cheaper to have a vacation there than it is to go to California over in San Diego, that they were not able to do that and their holiday plans were immediately affected. And so there really is just this immediate reminder of, you know, what the orders from

the top down from the federal government down to these communities, you know, even if it's Phoenix, which is not a border community, how that is affected. I think it's safe to say that immigration is not going to be solved before the 2024 presidential election. I don't make predictions, but that one's a pretty safe one. I think that's a pretty safe one. But it does make you wonder if this has reached a boiling point of an issue that whoever wins this presidential election, that immigration is going to be an issue that the federal government is going to have to tackle soon. I mean, it's a long overdue issue that the federal government is going to have to tackle. I do think, I mean, I think you're seeing signs now about how the direction of what that tackling may look like.

If these issues continue and you still have Democratic governors and Democratic mayors, as they are now complaining to Biden, that something needs to be done on an enforcement side. I mean, I think you are going to see some of those things. Over 50 percent of farm workers are undocumented and no one disputes that fact. And the only other viable alternative is agriculture visas that are just really expensive. And farmers constantly tell me that labor is one of the biggest costs that they have. That contributes to higher food prices and higher food costs, which any voter you talk to will say is one of their top concerns. Yeah, that's very interesting. All right, let's leave it there for today.

I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. I'm Ximena Bustillo, and I also cover politics. And I'm Frank Ordonez. I cover the White House. And thanks for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.