The NPR Politics Podcast - The 2nd Democratic Presidential Debates: What You Should Watch For

Episode Date: July 29, 2019

On Tuesday and Wednesday night twenty candidates will debate for the second time in the 2020 election. While they are all vying for the Democratic nomination, some are looking for a breakout moment, and others will be fending off attacks from rivals. This time around race will be top of mind. The NPR Politics Podcast gets you ready for the two night special. This episode: political correspondent Asma Khalid, political reporter Danielle Kurtzleben, and political editor Domenico Montanaro. Email the show at [e-mail]. Find and support your local public radio station at npr.org/stations.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hi, this is Joseph, Jonathan, and Leanne. We just completed the Register's annual Great Bike Ride Across Iowa. We were on a mission to spot members of the NPR No Pie Refused team, including Scott Horsley, who we met in Salem, Iowa. Condolences on the team's loss to the Des Moines Register in the pie-eating contest. We're sure you'll come out on top next year. Womp womp. This podcast was recorded at... Danielle, didn't you do that last year? Yeah, I recorded after we won the pie eating contest last year. So this year, no such luck. Well, we are here at, what time is it? 1119 a.m. on Monday, July 29th. Things may have

changed by the time you hear this. All right, here's the show. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the campaign. I'm Danielle Kurtzleben. I also cover politics. And I'm Domenico Montanaro, political editor. And we are listening to this music because it is time for the second Democratic debate in, of course... Detroit. Detroit, Michigan. I like your, like, this music.

Like, it's, like, anthropological. Well, it was a request. I thought it was a special request for Detroit. Well, I mean, yeah. Have you, Domenico? And because not only the debates are in Detroit and, you know, where the last debates were in Miami and really gave no sort of real attention to the city itself, this time with Detroit being a fairly significant political city that maybe

there will be more attention. Plus Michael Bennett, the Senator from Colorado had a kind of awkward tweet with some Eminem lyrics in it. He's like, you know, this is mom's spaghetti. You know,

your opportunity. Don't, you know, don't blow it. So we are going to dive into who will be on stage on each night because this is a double header debate. But first, let's quickly go around and talk about what we are anticipating most. Dominica, why don't you start? Well, I mean, the big, you know, back and forth since the last debate has been over race and Joe Biden sort of being in the middle of that.

And we're going to watch to see if there's anything with that that comes from it. Plus, there's no hand raising in this debate, which kind of upsets us. Right? Because. OK, well, raise your hands here in this politics podcast if you are upset about the no hand raising. Oh, yeah. Both hands. And, you know, people. Both are unanimous.

And, you know, people will say it's superficial, but saying you're in favor or not in favor of something. It offers clarity. Offers clarity. And, you know, following up on our NPR PBS NewsHour Marist poll that we did, talking about some of these hand raising policies that were put forward and whether they were a good idea or bad idea. You know, I'm sure there were a lot of Democrats who didn't want to have to put themselves on the line again to raise hands for certain for some things that, frankly, are unpopular with a general election electorate.

Echoing off of what you said, Domenico, I also am very interested in the dynamic of race, racial justice on the debate stage, particularly on the night that we're going to have Joe Biden sandwiched between New Jersey Senator Cory Booker and California Senator Kamala Harris. The sort of thing that plays into that, though, to me, too, is how Joe Biden responds, because I presume he's not just going to be attacked and getting attacks from those two. He will probably face a lot of criticism. And we saw in the first debate for Biden, it was it was tough to figure out how to fight back in the appropriate way. I mean, there was this classic line where he said, my time is up and he just kind of conceded his time. I am curious how he is able to effectively respond.

Well, and he's also said in the run up to this that he's not going to be so polite. Well, Danielle, what about you? What are you going to be anticipating most? Mine boils down to two people, Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, whom we often as political reporters, rightly so, I think, put in the same lane, that progressive lane, because they believe in a lot of the same sorts of things like Medicare for all. For example, they both raised their hands on getting rid of private insurance in those last series of debates. So, yeah, there's a lot that is similar about them. I'm interested in seeing when you put the two of them on stage together, first of all, what daylight does emerge between them on any particular views. But even leaving aside the substance, style does matter. And they do have very different styles on the campaign trail. That is true.

Yeah. Elizabeth Warren talks very much about her personal story. She gets at the idea of child care, for example, by telling her own personal story, which crowds really do respond to. Now, Bernie Sanders has his own crowds who very much respond to him, respond to his message on inequality, but it is not a personal message. It is more of a theoretical message. It is more of an outright political populist, burn down the system revolution message. So I'm curious to see how those play on TV when you put them next to each other, even when and if they are talking about the same-ish view. So that will be night one of the debate. And Danielle, we've begun, I guess, a little bit of a tradition here where you walk us through who is actually on stage every night. So why don't we start with that night one? Who

will be there? All right. So we have spiritualist and author Marianne Williamson, former Maryland Representative John Delaney, former Colorado Governor John Hickenlooper, Ohio Representative Tim Ryan, Montana Governor Steve Bullock, Minnesota Senator Amy Klobuchar, former Texas Representative Beto O'Rourke, South Bend, Indiana Mayor Pete Buttigieg, Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren, and Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders. Nicely done. All off the top of her head with no notes, by the way. Totally true. Backwards, upside down. So night one, it is obvious to me as somebody who's covered a lot of demographics in presidential elections that all of those candidates are white in an election cycle when you're like, huh, Domenico, but it's noteworthy,

I think, in particular, because this election cycle, we have heard so much about race. So how do you feel like this is going to affect the dynamics of some of those conversations, given that night one will be all of the white candidates in the field? It definitely stood out when CNN did their draw, because it just was, it's an odd thing, because they do have such a diverse field overall. But then when you, you know, the luck of the draw had it where you've got 10 all white candidates, you know, it's going to be interesting to see if the moderators inject race as an issue, as a topic, whether they're referring to other candidates who are on the stage in night two

or just bringing up, you know, things that those candidates have dealt with. So it's going to be interesting to see if they wind up going there. I mean, Pete Buttigieg is on stage in night one and he has had, you know, a controversy in his town where he's mayor about police and a police shooting. So, you know, this could be a thing that winds up coming up. Remember, that's how Kamala Harris wound up going after Joe Biden in a segment that was really about Pete Buttigieg. So, you know, I don't know. We'll see how it winds up factoring in. And I mean, look, race will come up, I would guess, because the candidates have so much, no matter what race they are, brought race into their policies.

Exactly. Like you were talking about Pete Buttigieg. He's come out with an entire plan. He's calling the Douglas Plan, right, to address issues of systemic inequality. Right. I mean, you can go right down this list of candidates, Marianne Williamson with her reparations plan, Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders talk about racial equality with student debt, that sort of thing. And for free college. I mean, race comes up. It seems like, you know, there might be a more nuanced thing to talk about here in terms of race could come up in terms of policy. But of course, none of these candidates can quite speak to the experience of being a person of color in the U.S. Because that's what happened in the last debates was Kamala Harris's very personal moment that ended up being that viral moment. But, you know, aside from that, Danielle, I do kind of wonder if I'm asking you a question, it's a little bit of a pop quiz, but like, if you're putting a debate together and you see these 10 people and you've been studying all their policies, what stands out for you if you were prepping anchors and you wanted them to, you know, ask a question. What sort of divisions do you see or places you're curious about if you could have a question you could throw to these folks? The big overarching thing, of course, is the question of capitalism versus socialism.

Now, besides Bernie Sanders, no one else on this stage is a person who considers himself a democratic socialist by any means. But the question of these policies that Americans rightly or wrongly consider socialist, asking the candidates whether they consider Medicare socialist, you consider the socialist. And either way, do you support expanding these sorts of programs and really expanding the U.S. safety net? Because there are some Americans who consider that socialist, again, rightly or wrongly. I want to ask you guys about who you see as a wild card for night one of the debate. We talked earlier about Sanders and Warren. I think they're seen as being the sort of high profile candidates that many people are curious about, particularly because they are very similar around policy issues.

But let's talk about some of the other people. I'm very interested in someone like a Pete Buttigieg, who has not necessarily had a huge moment thus far in the debate, and, you know, is bringing in bucket loads of money. But I do think there's some questions about where he goes beyond the money. To me, Buttigieg and Beto O'Rourke are two people who have sort of stagnated in this campaign. You know, they had meteoric rises, and then really nobody else of, you know, kind of like those two have had such meteoric rises and then sort of just flatlined in the rest of their campaign. You know, they're still there. They're still raising money.

And they're both qualified for the next debate already. Yeah. And but, you know, they're not seen as serious as contenders for the nomination as they had been, let's say, three or four months ago, where Beto O'Rourke had such a star rise and Pete Buttigieg did as well. They really need to have some kind of breakout to feel like they have now captured a moment. Remember, Kamala Harris was in a similar position before the last debate and she had that breakout. Julian Castro was in a similar position and had that breakout. But I want to ask you about those moments because when you talk to these campaigns, both from Buttigieg's side as well as O'Rourke's,

there's a sense that these are guys who don't like to necessarily throw punches. They may be competitive, but they don't want to do, they're saying, these attack lines. And I'm curious because in the first debate, who did we say gained a lot of attention? Our two people who went on the offense, both Castro and Harris. That's right. And I think it was know, it was instructive to me also because Amy Klobuchar is in this debate and she's a very good debater. She's very witty.

She can, you know, take a line that someone says and sort of turn style it somewhere else. And she said after the first debate that she deliberately held back because she felt like it's the first debate, you know, you don't want to show that you're being confrontational. But after that second debate and seeing how some of those candidates broke out, I anticipate Amy Klobuchar is going to be somebody who's ready to play as well.

Well, especially because she so much of her identity is about getting things done and reaching across the aisle and being pragmatic. What can we accomplish as opposed to what are my big policy grand ideas like Medicare for all, which is not a thing that she backs. She's more about what can we do. So I can see her in particular trying to take some shots at Elizabeth Warren and at Bernie Sanders that night. And I'm also curious, hey, the person we were all talking about in the last debate who didn't make the debate, Steve Bullock, the Democratic governor from Montana. What's he like on the stage? You know, he's been trying to take this centrist approach, say that you've got to win over places that President Trump has won. He won in Montana.

So, you know, how's he going to mix it up? All right. We're going to take a quick break. And when we get back, we'll talk about the second night. I'm Shankar Vedantam. This week on Hidden Brain, we kick off our annual summer series, You 2.0. Ideas and advice about how you can respond to life's chaos. Let's do a just check to my inbox. Just check, just check, just check to my phone real quick. With wisdom. Listen to Hidden Brain from NPR every week.

And we're back. And let's talk about night two. Danielle, walk us through again who will be on stage during that second night. All right. Again, no particular order. Totally from memory. We have Washington Governor Jay Inslee, New York Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, Hawaii Representative Tulsi Gabbard, Colorado Senator Michael Bennett, New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio, New Jersey Senator Cory Booker, entrepreneur Andrew Yang, former HUD Secretary Julian Castro, California Senator Kamala Harris and former Vice President Joseph Biden. All right. Well, of those people that you listed off, I think there's a lot of interest in seeing what will happen between Joe Biden, Cory Booker and Kamala Harris. And I will say we got a preview of some of that because there was a lot of public spatting, a lot of public tension between the three of them in just the last couple of weeks around a whole bunch of issues. Some of it being around criminal justice reform in particular. Right. Yeah. I mean, since the last debate, you have had Joe Biden put out his criminal justice reform plan. Big overarching headline on it is that he is framing it as,

I want to put more money into rehabilitation and less money into incarceration. Well, since he put that out, there was also some criticism from Cory Booker, for example. Cory Booker called Joe Biden, I believe the phrase was an architect of mass incarceration. I was there that day. That was to speaking to reporters at the NAACP conference and was extremely critical, saying that this plan does not go far enough. It's inadequate, considering it's coming from a man who he said should realize he was responsible for creating some of the situation we're in currently. Right. And the thing, too, that we're referencing here is the 1994 crime bill that Joe Biden was involved in creating and passing. And Biden and his campaign swatted back at Booker and said that that's Newark, New Jersey, and some of the police tactics there that when Booker was mayor that were taking place at the time.

Stops that saw an inordinate number of African-Americans stopped and all that. to see if a white candidate like Joe Biden is able to actually level that attack and make it stick in a way that he still comes off well. Yeah. And in a way that I think also just comes off as being authentic, because you're going to have him in the middle, the way the debate stage is going to be on one side is going to be Kamala Harris, who he had a really, you know, public spat with during the last debate around issues of race. And on this time, Cory Booker is on the other side and Booker and him have been debating this issue as well. And I am just curious how someone like Joe Biden, who has already received criticism for being a candidate of, say, yesterday, right, not looking forward for the Democratic Party, that is the criticism being leveled against him. How does he deal with combating these issues of

race when he's actually in the middle of these very high profile black candidates? Well, and the thing that I keep thinking of is the last time, I don't mean the last time this time around, I mean years ago, more than a decade ago, that we were all watching Joe Biden in a debate and wondering what he was going to do. He was debating Sarah Palin and he had the opposite issue then, right? The whole question was, is he going to go in there and just beat up on her, try to make her look less smart, that sort of thing? This is the opposite issue that he's dealing with this time.

How, like, how pugilistic should he be as opposed to how not pugilistic should he be? For Harrison Booker, part of why they have been attacking Biden so much on this issue of race is because there is this sense that they need to peel away some of the support he has from African-American voters. When you look at polls, Joe Biden is still enormously popular amongst, say, African-American voters in an early voting state like South Carolina. They cannot clinch the nomination if they are not able to peel away some of that support specifically among black voters. Cory Booker is tied with Tom Steyer in South Carolina with two percent. Tom Steyer, we should point out, is a new entrant to the Democratic primary. He formerly headed this group called Next Gen.

And, you know, look, there's also going to be other dynamics on the stage. Take, for example, someone talking about wild cards like Kirsten Gillibrand. Does she go after Joe Biden also in a way to talk about women? Because that is something she is ready to do. And we should explain Gillibrand, you know, the senator from New York, has been extremely, extremely vocal on issues around the Me Too movement and just broadly issues of feminism. I mean, because one of the things that is going to be interesting to watch on the stage,

Kirsten Gillibrand from New York has nothing to lose. And she could wind up going after Biden on past, you know, issues with Biden and unwanted touching and allegations made against him about that. Nothing sexually inappropriate. But you wonder what that's going to make him look like in the middle of the stage while you've got candidates coming at him from different flanks. A reason they are able to attack Biden is his past stances. Well, why does he have all these past stances they are able to attack? Well, he's been around politics for a real long time. And that brings us to another policy issue, and that is health care, because all three of them,

they have signed on to Bernie Sanders' Medicare for All bill. And Biden has been critical of an idea of Medicare for All. He has said, put out his own health care plan saying that that would actually destroy the Affordable Care Act. I mean, he doesn't say it in those words, but he takes the stance that he wants to preserve what is already there. You know, people like Biden, people like Klobuchar, people who've been in places where they've needed to actually make legislation and put things through, you know, they're thinking in practical terms. How do I get this thing passed? What is possible?

And that's where they think first and foremost. And that kind of grates on some on the left and progressives because they want wholesale replacement. They're upset with President Trump in the White House and they want to see things. They want to see a society move in a direction that they feel is more just and not, quote unquote, incremental. For Joe Biden, he sits there and says, he's got a little bit of wind at his back on the argument that you shouldn't just make Medicare for all a replacement to private health insurance because only 41 percent of people in our poll said that that would be a good idea. But 70 percent of people said it would be a good idea to have Medicare for all as an option with private health insurance. Is that a general election pool of people that were surveyed? Well, we surveyed

Democrats. We oversampled Democrats in that poll as well. And now most Democrats thought that it would be a good idea to have Medicare for all as a replacement. They liked the idea of Medicare for all as an option as well and would be OK with that, too. But 70 percent, a more broad number of people overall, we're talking about independents. Republicans weren't totally on board with that, but a higher number of them were more OK with that than replacing the entire system with Medicare. So it sounds like what Biden is proposing is more popular for a general election electorate. The question, of course, is whether or not, you know, on a debate stage when you have a bunch of Democrats who are pulling to the left, whether or not that message will get through and whether or not it's actually what people want in the Democratic electorate. Right. And whether it energizes the Democratic electorate, because there's a lot of people who a lot of Democrats who won't be energized by a public option.

All right. Well, that is a wrap for today. We'll be back tomorrow night after the debates to break down all the key things that happened at the second Democratic debates. And big news, if you are a loyal listener and you want to join in on a conversation about the debates as they are happening in real time, we are launching a Facebook group for you all to talk about what's going on. We'll be in the group as well. We'll be posing questions and posting analysis. It's a place for all of us to better connect with you all. You can join us by heading over to n.pr slash politics group. And one more time, if you didn't get that, you can join by heading over to n.pr slash politics group.

And Asma, you and I will be heading to Detroit tomorrow. And we'll be, you know, there for all of our reaction. People can follow that online. And Danielle is going to be part of the live blog that we'll be doing back here from headquarters. I'll be chilling here. I'm Asma Khalid. I'm covering the campaign. I'm Danielle Kurtzleben.

I cover politics. And I'm Domenico Montanaro, political editor.. I'm Danielle Kurtzleben. I cover politics. And I'm Domenico Martino, political editor. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.