The NPR Politics Podcast - The 4th Democratic Presidential Debate: What You Should Watch For

Episode Date: October 14, 2019

Impeachment looms over the latest Democratic presidential debate. Plus, Bernie Sanders takes the stage following a heart attack, and Elizabeth Warren continues rising in the polls. This episode: political correspondent Asma Khalid, political correspondent Scott Detrow, and national political correspondent Mara Liasson. Email the show at [e-mail]. Find and support your local public radio station at npr.org/stations.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Asma Khalid. I'm covering the campaign. I'm Scott Detrow. I also cover the campaign. And I'm Mara Liason, national political correspondent. All right. Well, the next round of the Democratic presidential primary debates is tomorrow in Ohio. And this time there will only be one night, 12 candidates all on stage at the same time. So, Scott, why don't we begin by you just walking us through who all will actually be there squeezed onto this single debate stage? 12. We have tapped out at 10 before then, and those stages seem crowded. Here are the

12 people who will be on the stage. Former Vice President Joe Biden, Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren, Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, California Senator Kamala Harris, South Bend, Indiana Mayor Pete Buttigieg. You've got entrepreneur Andrew Yang, former Texas Representative Beto O'Rourke, Minnesota Senator Amy Klobuchar, former HUD Secretary Julian Castro, New Jersey Senator Cory Booker. And the two additions from last month, you have billionaire climate and impeachment activist Tom Steyer and Hawaii Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard. A lot of names.

A lot of names. And a lot of people on the same debate stage. And I would say one of the most challenging things you could see already is that so many of the candidates have suggested that it's hard to debate in a format like this. They barely have time. There's so much time constrictions. And now you've got 12. You've got two more candidates than we've seen in previous debates. So why don't we begin by just talking about the fact that this debate comes at a really critical time. The entire news cycle lately has been taken

over by the impeachment inquiry. It seems to be dominating the news cycle. And here we have the first debate since this all began. Mara, what does that mean? Do you think it changes the dynamic of the race? Well, it means that even if the candidates don't want to talk about impeachment and would rather talk about their plans for health care and addressing wage stagnation, the moderators are going to be focusing on impeachment. So the idea that how how Joe Biden in particular handles this, because he's the one who's in the center of the impeachment cyclone. The president has been running millions of dollars of attack ads for him. The impeachment was started because the president asked Ukraine, subsequently he's also asked China, to investigate Biden in the hopes of damaging him or knocking him out as a candidate. And I think that Biden is going

to be asked not about the charges that have been debunked that the president has been leveling, but about the underlying appearance of impropriety. What was his son Hunter doing on the board of Ukrainian company when Joe Biden as vice president had Ukraine in his portfolio? And Asma, you were there the only time actually that Joe Biden has fielded extended questions from reporters since all this began. And he was pretty, is prickly the right way to say it? He was pretty defensive. He was exasperated by this. And even when questions came up about the appearance of a conflict of interest, because his son Hunter was on the board of this Ukrainian gas company making, you know, what was it, $50,000 a month. That's a lot of money. And when he was asked about this, he did not seem to want

to go there. He insisted to reporters that, you know, focus on this man, focus on Trump, focus on what he's doing. At one point, he jabbed his finger as he was talking to a reporter. He does not like this line of questioning. But to Mara's point, whether or not he likes it, it is much easier to dismiss it from a reporter. It is much harder if a moderator asks you that same iteration of a question five times. He's going to have to have an answer to that. And, you know, the big challenge for Biden is that his whole rationale is he's the guy who can beat Trump. He's the best candidate to take on Trump. So he wants a one on one contrast with Trump. He's got it. Trump has been attacking him for Trump. Biden is the candidate he doesn't want to run Trump. So he wants a one-on-one contrast with Trump. He's got it. Trump has been attacking him. For Trump, Biden is the candidate he doesn't want to run against.

So he's going to have to figure out how to do some jujitsu, how to use this opportunity of being in the crosshairs at the risk of having Democrats worry that he'll be damaged in some way, not that they'll believe the charges. And if he can use it to his advantage, that is what Democrats have been begging him to do, asking him to lean into this. He has shown a little more aggression. You talked about him talking to reporters. He did give a speech in New Hampshire where he was a little bit more aggressive on this than he's been up until now. This debate also comes at a time where if you look even beyond the Ukraine story, Joe Biden has been on the defensive. Warren raised about $10 million more than him, even though he does so much big fundraising and she does not do any.

And Bernie Sanders did too. He did as well. That's right. And Pete Buttigieg did too. I think one of the other interesting points, Tamara, to your argument that Joe Biden will be asked about this, I would conjecture, I would guess that the moderators will also ask some of the other leading candidates for their view on the appearance of impropriety of what Hunter Biden was doing. And I think so far we have seen the candidates time and again shy away from this. I mean,

Kamala Harris has been saying when she's asked about this, you know, leave Joe Biden alone, leave Joe Biden alone. She doesn't seem to want to go there. I would say many of the other candidates don't seem to want to even debate this topic. It's going to be hard for them to do that, though, I think on a stage. It will be. Here's the problem for them. Because Trump is prosecuting this argument with a lot of unsubstantiated charges, to say the least, they don't want to look like they're carrying Trump's water, even though they might feel that the appearance of impropriety is a legitimate question. It's kind of the same way that even though other candidates think Elizabeth Warren claiming to be an American Indian is a legitimate issue, because Trump prosecuted that charge in what they feel is

a racist way by calling her Pocahontas, they don't want to touch that either. So Trump has made it very difficult for them. But what I'm really watching is Elizabeth Warren, who is styling herself as the anti-corruption candidate. What does she do when she's given the invitation to make that criticism against Joe Biden? And the one time that she was asked that question, I think her answer really tells you a lot about her discomfort with it. Under a Warren administration, would your vice president's child be allowed to serve on a board of a foreign company? No. I don't know. I mean, I'd have to go back and look at the details. You know, we're talking here about the impeachment story and how it affects Joe Biden.

I think there are a lot of tough questions for Democrats on impeachment as a whole, specifically questions about something that Mara has talked a lot about on the podcast recently, the question of, do you think it's right for Donald Trump's fate to possibly be decided by Congress before voters get to weigh in? I think I'm really curious to hear what a lot of Democrats have to say on that specific point, because when you broaden it beyond should he be impeached, should he be investigated and possibly impeached, I think it gets into a trickier political question with an election so close. All right. Well, clearly, you all can see that the impeachment inquiry is just this massive backdrop of the upcoming debate. But there is still plenty more to talk about. And when we get back, we'll talk more about Senator Bernie Sanders' first big appearance after his heart attack. Grow with Google initiatives support small businesses by providing free digital skills workshops and one-on-one coaching in all 50 states,

helping businesses get online, connect with new customers, and work more productively. Learn more at google.com slash grow. Think of NPR's Life Kit as that friend who always has great advice on everything from how to invest to how to get a great workout. We bring you tools to help you get it together. So listen and subscribe to NPR's Life Kit, all guides to get all of our episodes all in one place. And we're back. And Scott, you've covered Bernie Sanders quite a bit this campaign cycle. So why don't you just quickly catch us up to speed on what exactly happened? Sure. On October 1st, at a campaign event in Las Vegas, Bernie Sanders experienced chest pain. Shortly after that happened, his campaign said

that he experienced chest pain, went to the hospital, he had a blocked artery and two stents were put in. It took several days before the campaign said, in fact, Bernie Sanders suffered a heart attack. He's since been released from the hospital. He's recovering in Vermont. But politically, that raises a lot of questions about the health of a 78-year-old in a field where all the leading candidates are in their 70s. Bernie Sanders has been making a point to show that he is up to campaigning, to show that he is getting better. They've been doing a lot of interviews from his home in Vermont. They've been posting a lot of videos of him doing everything from playing baseball in the backyard in a video that I noticed had like a timestamp, like October 10th, Bernie playing baseball. Also tying this heart attack

to the fact that health care, single payer health insurance system is the signature issue of his campaign saying, I was fortunate, I had good coverage, I had good insurance, this makes me even more committed. But you know, he has not been on the campaign trail. He had to miss, you know, forums where other candidates were at. And this debate will be the first time he's back actively campaigning. There's going to be a lot of questions about how he looks, how he sounds, how he feels, and what his answers are to questions about, you know, can you serve as president after this? And why did you take so long to say that it was, in fact, a heart attack? Those two questions he's really dismissed in interviews so far, saying he's getting better.

He's talked to doctors. He's fine. But again, it's a field of exceptionally old candidates. But to your point, though, Scott, about just seeing how Bernie Sanders is able to present himself on stage as being strong and in good health will be really fascinating. These debates are not easy. I mean, candidates have to just stand for multiple hours on stage, which I don't know. I mean, I think standing up on a standing desk for a couple hours is aggravating and tiring. I would stand for a while at the Taylor Swift concert. I was getting pretty tired at the end.

I do think, Amar, before you... Don't complain. I mean, I do think it is worth pointing out, and Bernie Sanders has talked about this, he really did have one of the most vigorous campaign schedules out there all the time, all over the country, doing a ton of events, doing a ton of rallies. And he initially said he was going to scale things back a little bit. The next day he said he didn't mean it quite that way and he's going to continue his vigorous schedule.

It doesn't matter how vigorous Bernie Sanders looks on stage. The guy had a heart attack. He had two stents put in. That's just a fact that's going to be lodged in voters mind. And don't forget, Bernie Sanders was not climbing. He was either staying steady or slipping where and Warren kind of already the Warren line crossed the Sanders line. And I think that the conversations I've been hearing among Democrats is, where do Bernie's voters go if he starts to shed them? Most people think most of them will go to Warren since they share the same left center lane of the party, but some of them might go to Biden too. You don't hear people saying, all Bernie has to do is show he's vigorous and he's going to be back in the hunt.

He did raise the most money. Yes. Which means he has no incentive to drop out. But it also means that there is certainly a loyal base of support that he has that is extremely, extremely dedicated to him. No doubt. No doubt. And the conversation used to be, would Sanders ever throw his support to Warren or would he just stay into the end the way he did in 2016? So let's talk briefly about Elizabeth Warren, because she is this candidate who has, you know, if this was to be like the tortoise in the hair, she is the clear tortoise.

She has slowly and steadily been increasing her momentum for months and months. And we've seen so far in these debates, I would say she kind of doesn't really ever have a viral moment, I would say, for the most part. I mean, she kind of just- She has plenty elsewhere in the debates, maybe not so much. No, not in the debates so much. Yeah. Right. She hasn't needed one. Look, she has run the best campaign of all the candidates so far. She has put together the best organization, created the most grassroots enthusiasm, raised a tremendous amount of money. She has also, with her multitudinous plans, tapped into this pent-up desire on the part of Democrats for government action on big problems like corporate corruption, wage stagnation, climate change. This desire has been suppressed by 10 years of Tea Party dominance, now Trump dominance. And she has run a really good campaign. I think right now that she is the co-front runner, she's going to get some scrutiny. And I'm waiting to see on the debate stage, what kind of attacks is she going to get? You know, Mitch Landrieu, former mayor of New Orleans,

centrist Democrat who passed up a run of his own, said Elizabeth Warren has a plan for everything except for how she'll beat Donald Trump. And that's the question. Democrats are nervous. They think she's run a great primary campaign, but they think her positions are too far to the left to beat Trump in a general election. I want to ask you about that because thus far in the debates, I would say those candidates who tried to go for a real viral attack haven't had a great track record. I can think of a lot of moments with candidates who tried to punch up. It didn't work too well for them. And to what degree, how effectively are you, how effective can you actually hit a candidate when the time constraints are so limited?

Oh, I think you can. Maybe you can't punch up the way all the other center center left candidates did against Joe Biden. And and that didn't work. But I think that there is an attack against Elizabeth Warren. How is she going to pay for the plans? How is she going to pass them through a Republican Senate? Possibly. I think that Elizabeth Warren has one half of the message Democrats want, which is she has a way to use government to solve problems. That's what Democrats want to hear. On the other hand,

she doesn't have the healing, unifying part of the message. That's something that Biden has really stressed. That's something else people want. They want an antidote to the chaos of Donald Trump. They don't want fighting, fighting, fighting all the time. And she has styled herself as a fighter, a fighter for the middle class. But I think that there will be candidates trying to poke holes in her rationale. All right. Well, that is a wrap for today. The CNN New York Times Democratic Presidential Debate will be airing on CNN at 8 p.m. Eastern Time, Tuesday night. You can watch it there. You can also listen to it on your NPR member station. And we'll be back tomorrow in your feeds. But hold up, we will be there after the debate. We know that we've been trying to bring

you podcast episodes every day right around the same time, right around 5pm. But tomorrow, please hold off. We will not be there until after the debate. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the campaign. I'm Scott Detroy. I also cover the campaign. And I'm Mara Liason, national political correspondent. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.