The NPR Politics Podcast - The Complicated Relationship Between Biden And Bibi

Episode Date: March 27, 2024

As the United States tries to seek a resolution to Israel's war in Gaza, we look at the complicated and strained relationship between the White House and the Netanyahu government. This podcast: White House correspondents Deepa Shivaram & Franco Ordoñez, and national security correspondent Greg Myre.This podcast was produced by Jeongyoon Han & Kelli Wessinger, and edited by Casey Morell. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Listen to every episode of the NPR Politics Podcast sponsor-free, unlock access to bonus episodes with more from the NPR Politics team, and support public media when you sign up for The NPR Politics Podcast+ at plus.npr.org/politics.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Autograph Collection Hotels, with over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of hotel brands. Find the unforgettable at AutographCollection.com. Hi everyone, my name is Lucas and I'm currently in the Indianapolis International Airport getting ready to start my student teaching placement in Ávila, Spain. This podcast was recorded at 1.35 p.m. on Wednesday, March 27, 2024. Things may have changed by the time you listen to it, but hopefully by then I will be in a middle school classroom

teaching about what life in the United States is like. Okay, enjoy the show. Felicitaciones, Lucas. That sounds great. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Deepa Shivaram. I cover the White House. I'm Greg Myrie. I cover national security. And I'm Franco Ordonez. I cover the presidential campaign. All right, so today on the show, the relationship between the Biden White House and the Benjamin Netanyahu government. Greg, I mean, as Israel's war in Gaza has continued on for months now, there was once a close relationship between Biden and Netanyahu, and it's becoming a little bit more strained.

Most recently, there were plans to have Israeli government officials come to the U.S., but those plans were canceled. Can you walk us through what happened there? Sure. Even in normal times, Israelis and American officials are going back and forth. There's a lot of conversation that's even stepped up during this war. And what we did see already this week is Israel's defense minister,av Galant coming to Washington, holding high-level meetings, the National Security Council, the Pentagon, State Department. And that's really important. Galant, the Defense Minister, is very much at the center of decision-making that's going on with Israel's war now. But we also saw the United Nations Security Council pass a resolution calling for a ceasefire in Gaza. Now, the U.S. had vetoed three similar resolutions, but it abstained on this one, and therefore it passed. Israel, and Netanyahu in particular, was upset about this.

So Netanyahu called off a delegation, another high-level delegation, that was coming to Washington this week because of this. Now, a little bit performative here because the defense minister's already here discussing military issues, which is really the most critical issue at the moment, but it does very much reflect the nature of the relationship, which has become strained. So it's worth paying attention to, but perhaps not overstating it. The two sides are still very much talking, working very closely on issues related to the war and beyond. I mean, that's important context, but you're right. I mean, this was something that I feel like the White House had really hyped up that this delegation was to come this week. And then when that fell through, that got a lot of attention. But like you said, there's still

a lot of back and forth going on in the in-between. Franco, I mean, as Greg mentioned, this is a relationship that is going well, strained at times. You know, we heard Biden say after the State of the Union, he had that hot mic moment saying that he needed to have a come to Jesus moment with Netanyahu. It kind of seems like they're sort of like siblings, right? They get along. Sometimes they're sort of beefing. What have you noticed in the past couple months of this? You know, he talks about being a Zionist. You know, when the attack happened on October 7th, he came out full force for Israel. And he's pretty much remained that way, defending Israel, saying that they have the in the terrible, awful images that we've all seen in Gaza. You know, his tone has really changed. And you get that hot mic moment. You get conversations at fundraisers where Biden complains about indiscriminate bombing. And he's only gotten stronger and stronger. That's Biden, that is, in that language. And, you know, Greg was talking about

that U.N. vote and the abstention. I mean, I would I would say that's not a small thing to allow that to go through. Hence, we're in this situation now. Greg, I want to back up here a little bit. I mean, as much as Biden has been around in U.S. politics for a long time, Netanyahu has also been around for a long time. And he's deeply familiar with U.S. politics and U.S. politicians. You know, from your sense of things, I want to know, does he get along with the U.S. better when Republicans are in the White House or when Democrats are? I mean, have those relationships looked different depending on the party in power? Yeah, the short answer is very much so. He gets along better with

Republican presidents. And there's a long history here I think that's important to understand. He grew up in Philadelphia. He went to MIT. He knows the U.S. very well. His English is American eyes English. But he's been at odds with, now this is the third Democratic president, he was at odds with Clinton in the 1990s, Bill Clinton, when the peace talks were going on in the Middle East trying to reach a two-state solution. He was at odds with President Obama, particularly in 2015 when Netanyahu was invited by the Republican House Speaker to speak before Congress and criticize the deal. The Obama administration was working out for a nuclear deal with Iran. Netanyahu very much opposed it. So Netanyahu has very much aligned himself with Republicans. And in a sense, he's made Israel a bit of a wedge issue where it used to have full bipartisan support.

It's not entirely Netanyahu's fault. There's a lot of other factors at play here, but he's very much been more in tune with Republican presidents than Democratic ones. And just speaking to the affection that Netanyahu has for the Republicans, I mean, it's very much reciprocated. I mean, as things have gotten worse with Biden, Republicans have moved in and really embraced Netanyahu. Speaker Johnson has said he plans to invite Netanyahu to address Congress. And Netanyahu just had a virtual meeting with congressional Republicans. I mean, both are playing this, you know, partisan game. And all that said, we should note there have been these past Israel-U.S. disagreements.

Famously, back in 1990, when George H.W. Bush was president, his secretary of state, Jim Baker, had some very caustic remarks about Israel. That Bush administration was trying to get peace talks going. It felt Israel was dragging its heels. And so Jim Baker made some pretty sharp statements when testifying before Congress. It's going to take some really good faith, affirmative effort on the part of our good friends in Israel. Everybody over there should know that the telephone number is 1-202-456-1414. When you're serious about peace, call us.

And in case you're wondering, that was and is the White House telephone number. And Baker was saying, we're ready to talk, but we can't want peace talks more than the Israelis or the Palestinians. So some pretty blunt language reflecting strains in the relationship at that time. It's pretty difficult to imagine someone in the State Department today or, you know, Jake Sullivan, the National Security Advisor, or even President Biden talking to Israel like that with that language. I mean, the U.S. has always been a partner to Israel, and we know Israel has benefited from that. But what does the U.S. has always been a partner to Israel, and we know Israel has benefited from that. But

what does the U.S. get out of its partnership with Israel? Well, I think in a number of ways. The U.S. points to Israel as the only democracy in the region. They see Israel as a place that is providing some stability in a region that has had a lot of wars, that it's a partner against countries like Iran or potentially terrorist groups. Now, not everybody agrees with that, of course, and we're seeing that particularly at this moment when Israel is getting so much criticism for the way it's carrying out its military operation in Gaza. And there's the obvious criticism that too many civilians are being killed, that Israel is destabilizing the region with its operation that is raising a lot of Arab anger. And more broadly throughout the Muslim world but the U.S. has seen support for Israel, working with Israel,

exchanging intelligence with Israel as something that has been very valuable and something that the U.S. very much wants to preserve. I mean, let's get into that a little bit, Franco. You're covering Donald Trump right now, obviously running for president again. What does that relationship look like between Trump and Netanyahu? I mean, going back to when Donald Trump was president, but also right now, he's been commenting a lot about this war, too. Yeah, no question about it. It's really been a fascinating relationship in watching them. Back when Trump was in office as president, I mean, he really there are a few leaders who were closer on the international stage. And President Trump did a lot of things for the state

of Israel, you know, moved the embassy to Jerusalem, kind of green lit settlements in the West Bank. But since Trump left office, it's gotten a little bit more rocky. You know, Netanyahu was, you know, early on congratulated Biden for winning the election in 2020. You know, that really angered Trump, who at that same time was trying to overturn the election. And after the October 7th attack, actually, you know, Trump attacked Netanyahu and said that he wasn't prepared. He also kind of complimented Hezbollah, you know, the Lebanese militant group for using that opportunity to kind of hit some attacks on northern Israel. I mean, it's been kind of tense. More recently, you know, his campaign and him have kind of pledged more support for Israel. But at the same time, you

know, he just had an interview with an Israel outlet where he, you know, kind of gave some tough love, you know, talking about how things needed to change. You have to finish up your war. You have to finish it up. You got to get it done. And I'm sure you'll do that. And we got to get to peace. You can't have this going on. And I will say Israel has to be very careful because you're losing a lot of the world. You're losing a lot of support. Now, it's really interesting hearing that because in many ways, you know, he is inserting himself into foreign policy in ways that he has not with, for example, Ukraine. And, you know, we've just been through the primaries leading up to the November election. And you're seeing what some Republican pollsters tell me is Trump kind of

moving to the center. There's so much talk about Trump, you know, stoking his base. But this may be an effort, I'm told, to like kind of, you know, maybe get back some Nikki Haley voters. And at the same time, Biden, because of all these things that we're talking about and concerns, he's kind of moved to the left because of all the constituencies that are so concerned about what is happening and the images that they're seeing in Gaza. With that, we're going to take a quick break. But when we're back, what do Israelis think of the Biden administration's efforts to end this war and get into the politics? And we're back. Greg, the Biden administration is getting a lot of criticism from voters, particularly young people, for their support of Israel. I mean, there have been ongoing protest

votes during the primaries. Many times in person, Biden has been interrupted. And these folks want Biden to call for a permanent ceasefire. And they're saying Biden isn't doing enough to aid Palestinian civilians, especially as the UN warns of an incoming famine. I mean, you've spent time in Israel. I'm curious how this looks for people there. I mean, how do they think Biden is handling this conflict so far? Well, Israelis have been tremendously supportive of what President Biden has done in this conflict. This was particularly true in the early days. I was there in October, November. Biden came to Israel, gave a big embrace to Benjamin Netanyahu. He was

very warmly welcome. And again, the Netanyahu government was not particularly popular. It's quite likely that Biden was a more popular political figure in Israel than Netanyahu was. Now, it's getting a little bit trickier because, as we've noted, the Biden administration has been critical of Israel. I'm not sure how much that has filtered down to ordinary Israeli citizens. And in general, I think it's fair to say Biden is still very, very popular there. The U.S. support is acknowledged. And even among Israelis who may not like what Biden is telling them at the moment, I think those who have a sophisticated understanding

know that Israel gets a lot of this military assistance. A lot of the weapons Israel is using come from the United States. Israel was already the leading recipient on a regular annual basis of U.S. military aid, getting about $4 billion a year. And now the Biden administration is proposing an additional $14 billion, almost four years' worth of additional aid to help Israel in this current war. And at the same time, the Biden administration is giving very clear and sharp instructions to Israel saying things like, do not invade Rafah where all these civilians are. So the U.S. is both offering more aid and telling Israel to be very careful and change your military tactics. I'll just add a quick note, and that is to say the United States has been a leading financial supporter of the Palestinians for decades, dating all the way to the beginning

of peace talks in the 1990s, if not earlier. The U.S. has provided humanitarian funding for the Palestinians, assistance to help run the Palestinian Authority, sort of the government or state in waiting for the Palestinians. So often that gets overlooked. And again, there's been a big kerfuffle about continued supporting for the U.N. agency that supports the Palestinians. So often that gets overlooked. And again, there's been a big kerfuffle about continued supporting for the UN agency that supports the Palestinians. But the U.S. has been a big supporter of the Palestinians as well over the years. Franco, I mean, we still have a long way to go until November. And I want to get a sense from you, especially someone who covers both Biden and Trump, how much do you think this will be a factor in the months leading up to November as more people get engaged with this election and start

paying attention to the two candidates in front of us? Yeah, I mean, no matter where you go, when we're part of, you know, the small pool of reporters, you know, in the motorcade with Biden, we're always seeing those demonstrations. We can hear them screaming for a ceasefire. And if we can hear them, it's very likely that Biden's hearing them as well. And as those calls gotten louder, you've seen and heard Biden's language also kind of shift from kind of the support we were talking about in the beginning and kind of the evolution that we've been discussing. I mean, especially, especially at some of the fundraisers that he has been giving, where they're a little bit more private cameras are not in the room. It was at a fundraiser in December, for example, where he talked about, quote,

indiscriminate bombing that we're costing Israel and that Netanyahu has to change. I find it interesting how it's kind of changed or shifted the status quo of the campaign season. And we were talking a little earlier about how, you know, usually at, you know, at this time in a campaign where eight months from the election, the primaries are over. This is when the candidates kind of shift to the center. They they move to the center. But now you have in many ways Biden is kind of moving to the left because he's so concerned, or it just appears that he's very concerned about these constituents, these base voters, while on another front, Trump is moving more to the center. Yeah. And I want to just tap

into this a little bit further because, I mean, you've covered campaigns for a long time now. Foreign policy is not typically a central issue in a general election. Like that is a little unique in a way. And the way that voters are thinking about this issue, and as Biden has sharpened his criticism of Israel in these fundraisers on a front-facing and a public-facing manner, do you think that voters are perceiving a shift in Biden's stance here? Or do you think they kind of just think it's the same old language? Yeah, I mean, I think it's a great question. And I think it's something that we're going to be exploring a lot down in the coming months. I mean, you're absolutely right.

The old adage is that presidencies are not one on foreign policy. Well, 2024 may be different. I think both sides are kind of trying to use it to their advantage, playing it against each other. I mean, I think we all know that Biden's constituencies, Palestinian Americans, Muslim Americans, you know, young Americans, a lot of Americans do not think that he is doing enough to push for a ceasefire. Republicans, though, are certainly trying to paint him as favoring the Palestinians and not supporting Israel. And on the other side, the flip side, I think you're seeing the same type of effort with Republicans certainly wanting to kind of paint themselves as the party that is loyal and will do no wrong for Israel.

All right. We're going to leave it there for today. I'm Deepa Shivaram. I cover the White House. I'm Greg Myrie. I cover national security. And I'm Frank Ordonez. I cover the presidential campaign. And thanks for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.