The NPR Politics Podcast - The GOP Is Having An Identity Crisis Over America's Role in The World

Episode Date: November 29, 2023

From Israel, to Ukraine, to China, global crises and conflicts are dominating headlines. And there are key divides among Republican presidential candidates on how to respond to those crises and conflicts. We break down where the 2024 hopefuls stand on foreign policy issues, and how conflicts abroad could influence elections here at home. This episode: White House correspondent Tamara Keith, campaign correspondent Franco Ordoñez, and national political correspondent Mara Liasson. This episode was edited by Lexie Schapitl. It was produced by Lexie Schapitl and Jeongyoon Han. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi.Unlock access to this and other bonus content by supporting The NPR Politics Podcast+. Sign up via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter. Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hi, this is Allison, Travis, and Guinevere. We just finished climbing the 222 steps of the Rue Foyardier to Sacré-Cœur in Paris. Very cool. My husband insisted on doing this because he saw it in John Wick. This podcast was recorded at 12.39 p.m. Eastern Time on Wednesday, November 29th. Things may have changed by the time you hear it, but we'll be enjoying our final night in Paris. Okay, here's the show. I haven't seen John Wick. Have you seen John Wick? Very, very exciting. Yes, I've seen John Wick. I've seen a couple of them, and they are very deadly. Very violent. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics

Podcast. I'm Tamara Keith. the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Frank Ordonez. I cover the campaign. And I'm Mara Liason, national political correspondent. From Israel to Ukraine to China, foreign policy is making a lot of headlines. It's at the center of a debate about funding in Congress. It's dominating President Biden's attention. And it's a matter of a surprising amount of debate. Franco, why do you think that foreign policy is such a big topic of conversation in this campaign? I don't want to say the world is on fire because I think that's a little bit too much. But there is just so much going on in the world right now. I mean, Israel, Ukraine,

China, there's just so much uncertainty about what's happening that and it's so much in the world right now? I mean, Israel, Ukraine, China, there's just so much uncertainty about what's happening and it's so much in the discussion. These are the biggest issues that are being talked about right now, that how can it not be part of the presidential primaries? Yeah, there are three crises all at once, a major land war in Europe between Russia and Ukraine, Israel and Hamas are at war in the Middle East. And China has made it very clear that at some point it will move militarily to take over Taiwan. I think the other reason that it's such a big issue in the primaries right now is that kind of the divides about foreign policy really reflect the identity crisis that the GOP is going through right now. I mean, there's a real struggle within the party about who it wants to be. Is it still going to be kind of that hawkish

old guard that wants to be tough on foreign policy, be a leader of the world, or this kind of new wave of conservative populism that Trump has ushered in and many have taken to that wants to focus more on domestic issues, focus U.S. resources here, not overseas. And it's a big change for the party. So that's the big picture. Let's get into some of those specifics. Franco, you have a great tracker up on the NPR website right now about the candidate positions. But let's run through it. How is this divide showing up among the candidates in the Republican primary? Well, I mean, on the one hand for Israel, I mean, the candidates are really all kind of

almost in unanimity backing Israel to a large degree. There have certainly been questions raised by Trump and, you know, Vivek Ramaswamy. But for the most part, the Republican candidates, as is kind of tradition, have been backing Israel. Ukraine is the big difference, though. Ukraine, you know, as the war has kind of lingered on, public support for the war has dropped. And Republicans have really politically capitalized on some of that. And Republicans are wary of sending more money, certainly the base Republicans. And you see that in Congress with many of the House Republicans pushing to stop funding. And that's why it's a big issue in Congress right now.

And so what does that look like then on the campaign trail? Well, what it looks like different is you have, you know, this new guard of Republicans, you know, primarily Trump and DeSantis, also Vivek Ramaswamy, who are part of this new conservative populism, you know, calling for, you know, pulling back those resources for Ukraine, while the old guard or those who represent the old guard, like Nikki Haley, the former UN ambassador, and Chris Christie, the former New Jersey governor, who are saying that, hey, the United States needs to stick with its allies. It needs to stick with NATO countries in the region. And it needs to say no to Russian

President Vladimir Putin. And it needs to say no to Russian President Vladimir Putin. And he needs to be strong against these adversaries. Otherwise, adversaries will continue to take action, and it'll be a bigger cost for the United States in the long run. Frank, what do you think is the root of Republicans' reluctance to come to the aid of a country that's being invaded by Vladimir Putin. We know that Donald Trump has a longstanding deep animus to Ukraine. He got impeached the first time because he was pressuring the Ukrainian government to open an investigation into Joe Biden and holding up military aid until they did. And we also know that there is a lot of sympathy among the kind of right-wing social issue base with Putin, who has styled himself as

a right-wing culture warrior, kind of anti-LGBTQ, very pro-Russian Orthodox Church. What do you think is really going on with the Republican Party and Ukraine? I mean, you know, I think a lot of this has to do with, you know, the message that Trump delivered in his first campaign, in the 2016 campaign, about ending endless wars, of dealing with U.S. problems first, about America first. I mean, that was his key message. I think that is the key point. More than any kind of sympathy or friendliness to Putin. I mean, I think it's hard to untangle those things, Mara. I'm reluctant to try to get into the heads of too many politicians.

I do. There's certainly, certainly, certainly, I mean, you see that with Trump, that they see some type of affinity, a connection with the Russian leader, with Vladimir Putin. But I think mostly for the politicians, they're seeing the reflection of their population, of their voters, who are questioning why the United States has been spending money, so much money, overseas. And it has to do, I mean, it goes back to Afghanistan and the decades and decades of war and questions about why is the United States there. And then, you know, very quickly after leaving Afghanistan, the U.S. is involved in

another conflict. Of course, of course, it's much different when it's not boots on the ground. And there are many arguments to say that it's a lot cheaper. There's a lot less resources going to it and the potential or the likely benefit is much better for the United States in this scenario. But still, when there are problems domestically and people are feeling, you know, their pocketbooks, you know, cost of milk and groceries is so high, they look to see what is expensive. But also very simply, Democrats are very, very, very supportive of Ukraine. President Biden is all in on supporting Ukraine. And part of this is also just an opposition to Biden. If Democrats think Ukraine

is so great, well, then it must not be that great if you're a Republican. But let's do remember that earlier on, I mean, it was almost unanimity across Congress, the State of the Union after the invasion or right before the invasion, everybody was wearing, you know, Ukraine pins, the standing ovations for the ambassador of Ukraine before the invasion, everybody was wearing, you know, Ukraine pins, the standing ovations for the ambassador of Ukraine. You know, that has shifted as this war has gone on and on and on. So I want to turn to former President Trump or turn more to former President Trump, because he is the front runner in the GOP primary. And he's out this week with a new campaign ad that's all about foreign policy.

And really, it's all about strength. America learned having a weak leader can tragically lead to American deaths, which is why America needs strength now more than ever. So the visuals in this ad involve Trump speaking at what looks like a rally of service members. And then when it turns to talking about the dangers of weakness, there are images of the service members who were killed in Afghanistan as the U.S. was pulling out of their flag-draped remains returning to the U.S. And also then of President Biden slipping on the stairs to Air Force One. So what is going on here? Well, what's going on here is that Donald Trump, who is now the leader of an isolationist party,

is trying to hang on to the performative tough guy trappings of the old Republican Party. And that's what he hopes will be a winning formulation. The job of the Republican candidate in the general election, whoever that may be, is to do two things at once, to make Biden look weak, and that ad certainly tries to do that, and to tell people that there's a new era dawning, America first, and their tax dollars will not be going overseas. The thing is, Trump hasn't been very specific in how he would do things differently. He says that he can end the war in Ukraine in one day. He says he can end what's happening in Gaza. But he doesn't say how he can do that. And I think that raises a lot more questions. All right. We're going to take a quick break. And when we get back, more on foreign policy and the presidential race.

And we're back. And we've been talking about the foreign policy divides within the Republican Party, specifically between the more traditional hawkish wing of the party and Trump's isolationist America First platform. Franco, do we see those divisions playing out on Israel or China in the way that we do with Ukraine and Russia? Not to the same degree. I mean, both on Israel and China, the candidates have really been kind of competing with each other in many aspects to see who can be the most hawkish. Though there are some differences on Israel, for example. You know, at first, Vivek Ramaswamy raised questions about U.S. funding for Israel, which, you know, he was quickly attacked on and kind of pulled back on some of those statements. In regards to China, I would say it's, you know, in many ways similar. It's kind of sometimes it's different degrees of it, particularly, for example, on severing economic cooperation with China.

Trump has been part of those who say that need to cut economic cooperation. Chris Christie, for example, has kind of stopped short of that. Also, Taiwan and supporting Taiwan and supporting Taiwan if it's attacked by China. There's been some kind of variations there as well. Chris Christie, for example, said he would send boots on the ground if the United States had to. Something he doesn't want to do, but something that he would do if he had to. Trump has kind of been very reluctant to kind of speak out on that. He says he wouldn't take it off the table, but says he's not going to negotiate in public beforehand. Haley has been very strong about supporting Taiwan, but she's also stopped short of saying that she would, you know, send U.S. troops or kind of intervene militarily if China attacked Taiwan. And when it comes to former President Trump, has he given any specifics about how he would deal with these various issues if he were to return to office? He hasn't, you know, explained how he would, you know, do things

differently. I mean, his message to this point is it's about strong leadership. And if there was strong leadership, these adversaries wouldn't, you know, wouldn't take advantage of a vulnerable moment. I mean, Mara, you tell me, I mean, this seems like a very typical kind of political type statement. No specifics, just big, broad statements and say like, hey, if I was in office, it'd be a lot better. Yeah. And he said that kind of thing many, many times. No specifics, just I'm tough. You know, only I can fix it. It's a very, you know, personality, cult of personality type message. Let's move over to the Democratic side of things for a bit. President Biden has made standing up to Russia and China a central part of his foreign policy

agenda. He has pledged unconditional support for Israel in their war against Hamas. And that, in particular, is causing him trouble with a part of his Democratic base, Mara. Yes, this has caused a deep rift in the Democratic Party. Young voters, voters of color, are pro-Palestinian. A lot of them have not made any distinction between being anti-Netanyahu and pro-Hamas, especially on college campuses. And there's no doubt that Bibi Netanyahu and his right-wing

settler-backed government has made it hard for progressive Jewish American voters to be supportive of his government. But that's really different than being supportive of Israel's right to exist or to defend itself. So this is a problem for Biden, who already was suffering from a lack of enthusiasm among young voters and voters of color. A lot of them are saying they're going to stay home. Then there's the problem for Biden of key ethnic constituencies like Arab Americans in the important battleground state of Michigan. They're also really angry about his unconditional or seemingly unconditional full-throated support of the Netanyahu government. So this is a problem. This is a wedge issue for Democrats. Just to close out, foreign policy is this area where presidents have far more unilateral power than they do in any other aspect of their presidency.

You know, like they don't have to work with Congress on foreign policy in the same way that they have to work with Congress on making policy changes to things like abortion or immigration. So do you think that this election will be different than other elections? Do you think that this time voters will decide based on foreign policy or that enough will to make a difference? I think this could be an election where enough people decide to stay home based on a foreign policy issue, that it does affect the race on the margins. U.S. elections are very close. They're decided on the margins, and they're not decided on the margins nationally. They're decided on the margins state by state, like Michigan, where Arab Americans could stay home. We're not saying they're going to cross over and vote for the Republican. The race in Georgia, for instance, in 2020 was decided by fewer than 15,000 votes. So yes, little things can make a big difference. All right, we're going to leave it there today.

I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Frank Ordonez, and I cover the campaign. And I'm Mara Liason, national political correspondent. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.