The NPR Politics Podcast - The National Implications Of Impeaching Texas' Attorney General

Episode Date: September 6, 2023

Ken Paxton, a Republican, is facing a bipartisan impeachment trial in the Texas Senate related to allegations of corruption and bribery, which Paxton denies. Despite being a state official, Paxton has had an outsized influence in national policy, especially regarding immigration, by involving the state of Texas in lawsuits filed against the federal government. This episode: voting correspondents Miles Parks and Ashley Lopez, and Sergio Martinez-Beltrán of the Texas Newsroom.The podcast is produced by Elena Moore and Casey Morell. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Unlock access to this and other bonus content by supporting The NPR Politics Podcast+. Sign up via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hi, my name's Alia. My cat Rory and I have had to take a lot of trips to the vet recently. He's doing okay, but he doesn't like the drive. And he cries the whole way. Unless I put on NPR Politics Podcast. Consider this doesn't work. Planet money doesn't work. Up first doesn't work. The only thing that gets him to quiet down is NPR Politics Podcast. Go figure. And this podcast was recorded at 1.08 p.m. on Wednesday, September 6, 2023. Okay. Enjoy the show. I love that. I will say I drove my pet to the vet today listening to NPR the whole way there. Lots of crying. I think because she knows. I think she figures out like I'm in the car.

It only works for that one specific cat. Yeah. Wow. Hey there. It's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Miles Parks. I cover voting. And I'm Ashley Lopez. I also cover voting. And today we have Sergio Martinez Beltran from the Texas newsroom. Hey, Sergio. Hey, y'all. So we are talking Texas today because there is a big story happening there. The Texas Attorney General, Ken Paxton, is facing an impeachment trial, which began this week. Paxton is a Republican. He is a big ally of former President Trump. But the efforts to impeach him have been bipartisan.

And Sergio, let's just start with you. You're at the statehouse there in Austin. Can you just tell us, for people who do not live in Texas, why does Ken Paxton matter? Right. I mean, Ken Paxton won the Texas Attorney General's office about a decade ago and has been reelected twice since then. And, you know, like you mentioned, he's a conservative and is super popular with GOP voters, particularly those who identify as grassroots Republicans.

And part of the reason why he's so loved by many Republicans is because of his efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election. Of course, he's a big fan of former President Trump. But Paxton also has some influence on the lives of those who live outside of Texas. He's made a name by being strict on issues like voter fraud and for fighting with the Obama and Biden administrations over immigration, federal spending and abortion. And he's won some of those challenges, particularly in the U.S. Supreme Court. I just think like it's important, especially for folks outside of Texas, to understand just like how effective Paxton has been at affecting national policy on a lot of levels, but especially immigration policy since he's been in office. And a lot of this has to do actually with the mark that Donald Trump left.

Trump put so many staunch conservatives on the federal bench. Paxton has been able for the past several years to judge shop in a way that almost ensures his lawsuits will either stall or completely derail any policy coming out of the Biden administration. And I should I mean, I should point out that judge shopping, which is basically looking around for a court with an ideologically favorable judge to file your case with is not new. A lot of people do that across the political spectrum. But because the courts have become so favorable to Republicans, it's been especially helpful to Paxton. I think it was like the Dallas Morning News who ran the numbers. But as of December last year, 17 out of Paxton's 20 lawsuits filed against the Biden administration went before Trump appointed judges. And I've heard legal experts say that, like with all the wins that Paxton has racked up during his time in that position, especially when it comes to immigration policy, he has, like, in essence, become a key figure in this country's immigration laws.

Yeah, it's interesting. He really, and also by doing that, has kind of set up this game plan for how a state official can really build a national profile. I mean, as a voting reporter, like you said, Serio, I do remember him filing law, you know, trying to get before the Supreme Court the results of the 2020 election. That effort ultimately failed, but it still kind of gave him this national spotlight. Can you walk through why he's being impeached right now? Yeah. So this all started in 2019 when Paxton allegedly asked his top deputies for legal counsel on a disputed records request involving an Austin businessman. His name is Nate Paul.

And Paul wanted access to sealed information concerning a search warrant by federal agents against himself. And, you know, Paxton's staff did what you and I would have done, which is Google Nate Paul. And they found he was under investigation from the FBI and had multiple bankruptcies. So, you know, this raised some red flags for Paxton's staff and they ended up asking Paxton to not release these documents. Texas House investigators say that a few months later in 2020, Paxton told one of his deputies that he didn't want his office to help the FBI nor the Department of Public Safety here in Texas on the investigation involving Paul. Paxton eventually hired an outside attorney and he hired this person to issue grand jury subpoenas

to quash this investigation into Nate Paul. And again, he did this after his staff refused to intervene and kept telling him and warning him to stay away from Nate Paul. Eventually, these members of his staff decided to report Paxton to the FBI. Again, this is in 2020. And they were either fired or pushed out. But the reason Paxton was impeached truly is because he settled a lawsuit with some of these whistleblowers. And he went to the Texas legislature earlier this year and asked for $3.3 million to settle.

And that didn't go well for Paxton because lawmakers decided to launch an investigation into the allegations behind this settlement and decided to impeach him in May. And Paxton has been suspended since then. Sergio, what's his response to all of this, Ben? Yeah, so Paxton has denied any allegations of wrongdoing. He's also blamed Texas Speaker of the House, Dade Phelan, of pursuing this in a political way, saying he wants to derail Paxton's political career. Now, I do think it's interesting,

the legal strategy here behind Paxton's defense team. They're trying to argue a couple of things. One is that a lot of the accusations uh they say those actions happened before paxton's most recent election so 2022 and they say that they should be ignored that if paxton were to be convicted or impeached for someone it should be for actions that happened after the most recent election. Yesterday, many senators rejected that argument in the pretrial motion. So the other argument they're using, too, is this idea that voters in Texas knew about Paxton's alleged misdeeds and still re-elected him.

They're almost making it sound like the re-election absolves Paxton of any sin. And so they say that if he were to be convicted by the Texas Senate, that chamber will be negating the will of the voters who overwhelmingly voted for Paxton in 2022. Wow. And I do think I mentioned this at the top, but these allegations are not coming from Democrats. Right, Ashley? I mean, the people who are expected to testify in the coming weeks on a whole, many of them are Republicans. Yeah, that's right. And I think that's because like Republicans in Texas, I think really had to do something right. But historically speaking, corruption is something that voters say they care about when asked. Now, whether it translates into them not voting for the candidate in their party, like that might be another story. But there is seemingly like at this point, no downside for Republicans to hold one of their

own accountable for something like alleged corruption, because I think as long as it doesn't look politically motivated, it's the kind of thing that at least voters say they hope elected officials address. I was also going to add that when Paxton was impeached in the Texas House in May, the majority of the Republicans voted to impeach. And that included some of the more right-wing Trump-lover lawmakers in the state house, those who represent at times rural communities. And they said that the allegations and the evidence against Ken Paxton is so abundant that it's too hard to ignore. And again, we're talking about allegations of corruption, like Ashley mentioned, of bribery. For many Republicans, that's where they draw the line.

Yeah. I mean, one of the things interesting, there's so many interesting wrinkles here, but one of them is that one of the state senators who's going to be sitting in on these proceedings is Paxton's wife, Angela Paxton. What is it like in that room right now? It's not a vibe, you know. I have to say I was expecting more chaos or more people here. Yesterday we did see dozens of people in the Senate gallery. Lots of them were supporters of Ken Paxton and, you know, they were wearing red shirts in support. But it was also a good mix of Capitol interns, staffers, a lot of reporters. Something interesting, as you mentioned, Senator Angela Paxton is sitting in the

Senate gallery. And I've been paying attention to her body language throughout this process because she has been prohibited from sitting in on the deliberations and from voting on motions or whether to convict. But again, she's required to sit in through the trial. And yesterday, when her colleagues were voting to reject the efforts to dismiss some of the articles of impeachment, Angela Paxton was looking at each one of them. Her eyes were like fixated on them. And the other thing I found interesting was her clothes. Listen, I'm not the fashion police here, but it's something to note. Almost all senators here in Texas wear dark blues, grays, or black suits or dresses. And Angela Paxton yesterday

wore a red suit, and it matched the shirts of Paxton supporters in the gallery. Okay, well, let's take a quick break and more on this trial in just a second. And we're back. And Ashley, you have covered Paxton for many years being based in Texas. He is, am I correct in understanding this? He's also under criminal indictment and has been for a number of years, but that is separate from this, these impeachment charges? Yeah, that's right. So Paxton was indicted by a grand jury in Collin County, which is in the Dallas area. And those indictments, by the way, include three felony counts, which is two alleging first degree securities fraud and another alleging a third degree charge that

he failed to register as a securities agent. This has to do with an alleged investment scheme. But to this day, he hasn't gotten a trial. And Paxton's opponents and government watchdogs here have claimed for a while that this is because Paxton is from Collin County and has a lot of friends, particularly in the legal world. You know, he is an attorney and they have for some reason chosen to slow play these charges. We don't know what those reasons are. I wonder if maybe things will change a little if Paxton is actually impeached, though, being the state's attorney general for those years, I think might have provided him some cover, you know, just because of the weirdness of the situation. So a formal impeachment might change the calculus for folks there. But like we have no idea. But for it's been a really long time since these charges have kind of like hung over him.

Sergio, I wonder, I mean, those are two separate issues, but is there any indication that voters are starting, Republican voters are starting to see all of this and it's affecting how they view Ken Paxton overall? Not really. I mean, there was a recent poll by the Texas Politics Project here in Texas based at the University of Texas that shows that only 24% of Republican voters think that Paxton should be removed because of the allegations that we're discussing now in this trial. And so, again, I don't think that will happen. I do think some Republican voters are recognizing that Paxton is not the only means to achieve their conservative agenda. They recognize that if Paxton were to be convicted and removed from office, the person who Governor Greg Abbott appoints or the person who gets elected next time will be as conservative, likely,

and will also sue the Biden administration or whoever Democrat is in office. They'll do the same thing as Paxton has done. So I think some Republicans are recognizing that maybe they don't have to be so all behind Ken Paxton because they know that they'll be able to accomplish their goals with any other Republican in Texas. Can you talk a little bit more about the process in terms of this trial, this impeachment trial in the state Senate just began, but how long is it expected to go? What

are the possible outcomes here? So we are going to hear from more witnesses, particularly the other whistleblowers. We're also expecting to see Nate Paul, again, this businessman at the core of the articles of impeachment, take the witness stand, too. So we are thinking that this is going to last three to five weeks. Now, I think it's unclear at this point, Miles, whether there are enough votes to convict Paxton. 21 votes are needed. So assuming all 12 Democratic Texas state senators vote to impeach, they will still need at least nine Republican senators to be successful. And if Paxton were to be convicted on any of the 20 articles of impeachment, he will be removed from office. And that's exactly what House impeachment managers want. They also want to bar him from holding any office in the future.

Ashley, what's your take on what the outcome here says about the Republican Party in Texas more broadly? Well, I will say this. I think this whole situation provides a kind of mixed picture of Texas Republicans. On the one hand, you know, it's not a small thing for lawmakers to hold to account a member of their own party, especially someone who has been such a fighter on a lot of their ideological battles, particularly on a federal level, as we were discussing, you know, with all the polarization in American politics, like we just see a lot more reluctance from like elected officials to speak out and go against members of their own party.

So I will say this makes Republicans in Texas look like they are at least somewhat interested in accountability in a way that maybe goes a little beyond politics. But, you know, that being said, you know, as I mentioned, this is not the first time Ken Paxton has been in legal trouble since being elected. He was indicted eight years ago and the party kept reelecting him and supporting him. And I think that kind of speaks for itself in terms of like what this says about Republicans, but also about like Texas politics. OK, well, we can leave it there. If anyone is interested, you can live stream the impeachment hearings on YouTube. So Sergio Martinez Beltran from the Texas newsroom. Thank you so much for covering this. You're welcome. I'm Miles Parks. I cover voting.

And I'm Ashley Lopez. I also cover voting. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.