The NPR Politics Podcast - Tick-Tock, TikTok: What Makes It A National Security Threat

Episode Date: April 29, 2024

After a series of classified national security briefings, Congress passed a law that will ban TikTok if it is not sold by its Chinese parent company. It is not clear what specific risks they're reacting to, but experts point to a widespread, if ineffectual, state-backed disinformation effort and other data-privacy concerns.This episode: senior White House correspondent Tamara Keith, political correspondent Susan Davis, and disinformation correspondent Shannon Bond.This podcast was produced by Kelli Wessinger and Casey Morell. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Listen to every episode of the NPR Politics Podcast sponsor-free, unlock access to bonus episodes with more from the NPR Politics team, and support public media when you sign up for The NPR Politics Podcast+ at plus.npr.org/politics.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hi, I'm Claire. And I'm Tyler. And we're on our way to the Grand Canyon for the first time. This podcast was recorded at 1.18 p.m. Eastern Time on Monday, April 29th. Things may have changed by the time you hear this. All right, here's the show. It really is grand. I've been there.

It's spectacular. It is grand. Does not disappoint. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. And NPR's Shannon Bond is here as well. Hello. Hello, guys. President Biden has signed a law intended to force the sale of TikTok from its Chinese owner.

And if the social media platform doesn't divest from that ownership, it could be banned in the U.S. The bill passed as part of a national security package, raising the question, what TikTok actually has to do with national security, which is something that you looked into, Shannon. Let's start with what concerns lawmakers raised. Well, we've heard a lot of general concerns, I'd say, right? So there's questions about data privacy because of this relationship with this Chinese owner, ByteDance, and the questions of what kind of pressure the Chinese government might put on the company to potentially pass data along for American users. So there's concerns about sort of like surveillance or you think about government officials or members of the military using TikTok. And, you know, if there's data

being transferred, that might be an issue. They've also raised questions around the spread of disinformation propaganda on the app and particularly this idea that China, the Chinese government, could, again, be leaning on ByteDance, the TikTok's owner, to influence, you know, the TikTok algorithm, you know, to spread pro-China messages, to suppress information that China doesn't want. But I will say one of the issues with evaluating these claims is that we've heard from lawmakers, you know, that they've had classified briefings with intelligence officials. You know, some of them come out saying, you know, we're quite concerned, but they actually haven't publicly shared some of this evidence that they're seeing. So in a lot of ways, some of these concerns they've raised sort of remain theoretical. So

what I wanted to do is say, okay, what do we actually know about in the case of propaganda, disinformation, misinformation, you know, particularly around, say, elections. What do we actually know about TikTok and kind of how it fits into the larger picture of social media and how foreign governments, including China, may be using social media or trying to manipulate social media? You know, part of what makes this such a fascinating new law is how fast it came together. Congress just generally does not move on issues of big policy debates as quickly as they did. And I think, as Shannon referenced, these intelligence briefings that were given to all lawmakers. Also, what made this sort of extraordinary in such a divided Congress was the big bipartisan support that this legislation had. And also, frankly, the willingness of Congress to regulate the tech industry, any element of the tech industry, which they have basically been incapable of doing

since the 90s. So I think understanding how fast and bipartisan this move through Washington does sort of speak to how broad the concern was within the entirety of the U.S. government of the potential influence TikTok could have. And so, Shannon, you, as you say, dug into what publicly available information there is about the spread of disinformation by China via TikTok or otherwise. What did you find? Yeah. So, I mean, I think we all, you know, we've been talking a lot over the years about social media and, you media and foreign influence. The intelligence community, tech companies, outside researchers say China does present what seems to be a growing threat. There has just been more activity from China in terms of online information operations as part of what the intelligence community sees as China's broader goals. There was a report earlier this year from the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, you know, saying, you know, what China is aiming to do is sowing doubts

about U.S. leadership and ultimately undermine democracy. And so, you know, social media is part of that, the toolkit, you know, if you're trying to influence opinion. And so we have seen that on TikTok, but as well as other social media platforms like Facebook, like Twitter, now known as X. platforms that's being used, but it may not be sort of being used differently than, say, Facebook or Instagram or X or, you know, lots of other social media platforms are being used. So what do these efforts at disinformation look like in practice? What are people seeing? What's coming up in their feeds? Well, this may sound familiar from, you know, what we've talked about how Russia has previously exploited social media, but we're seeing things, we're seeing familiar from, you know, what we've talked about, how Russia has previously exploited social media.

But we're seeing things, we're seeing China, in some cases, start to impersonate American voters, you know, posting as if they're a Trump supporter, criticizing President Biden, you know, claiming falsely that, you know, Biden stole the 2020 election. We've seen also this real zeroing in around, you know, existing divisive topics in the U.S., so things like immigration or LGBTQ rights. And you're sort of seeing more and more of these networks of these accounts they've linked to China appearing to actually poll Americans on, like, what are the most divisive issues with the idea maybe that's something they could jump on here. Shannon, there was an interesting line in your reporting in which Microsoft basically says, like, they're not necessarily that good at this right now, but if they were to get better, it could have even more profound effects. And I thought that was really interesting. Yeah, I mean, I think that's exactly what some of this concern is around, right? These are sort of behaviors, as I said, we've seen Russia do some of the same things over the years. I mean, sometimes it feels like China is a little bit late to the game. But the scale of what China

is doing is particularly what is, you know, one of the things that stands out. There is a Chinese network of fake accounts that's been running sort of across various social media platforms, including TikTok, including Facebook, but also like much smaller platforms, even sort of random forums. It's known as spamouflage in the industry. And last year, Meta, Facebook's owner, said it was the largest covert influence operation they have ever taken down. But it hasn't been that effective. You know, they have not, these accounts have not necessarily gained a lot of followers. They haven't moved the needle. The question is, as China sort of refines its efforts, and as I said, sort of takes on these newer tactics of, say, actually impersonating Americans, and in some cases using generative

AI, you know, using artificial intelligence to say, you know, fake images or write more convincingly, you know, in English, you know, there's a question over will that be more convincing? Might that actually be the sort of thing that we then see these efforts having more of an impact on American voters? And so all of this is coming at a pretty tenuous time for U.S.-China relations. If you think about what this TikTok potential ban was included in, was in this foreign aid package that also included money for Taiwan that China very forcefully opposed, that includes billions of dollars not just to bolster U.S. military in the Indo-Pacific, but also direct aid to Taiwan to bolster their military.

China has responded to this legislative package saying that they oppose it and that they intend to respond forcefully to it. I think it's an understatement to say that U.S.-China relations are at a minimum complex right now. And it's clear that the Biden administration is trying to open up a dialogue. Secretary Blinken just took a very well-publicized trip to China. But look, the U.S. interest and the China interest in so many ways run in direct conflict with each other. And how to de-conflict that is not just something for this president to figure out, but one of the big foreign policies questions for this country in the coming generation. All right, we're going to take a quick break.

And when we come back, the domestic politics of the potential ban on TikTok. And we're back. And I want to ask about the timeline here. President Biden has signed the law. But what is next? AndDance needs to sell TikTok and so needs to find an alternate owner, presumably a non-Chinese based owner. And if they do that to the satisfaction of the U.S., then they wouldn't ban it. But if they don't divest the app, then it would be banned in the U.S., meaning you couldn't, it would have to be taken out of app stores and people couldn't sort of download updates to it. But again, that's a long timeline.

And TikTok has made very clear they are not going to just let this happen. They've already indicated they are planning on suing, you know, under a couple of different claims, including First Amendment rights. Tam, it also seems worth noting that the irony here that this is a law signed by President Biden, but also his reelection campaign has made quite clear they intend to keep using the platform through the election. Right. A campaign official told me that they do intend to continue being out there on the app with an official account for the Biden campaign, also working with TikTok influencers who are very important in delivering the Biden campaign's message to voters. Now, why would they do that? Well, one, they insist they have very stringent safety protocols. And this TikTok app is getting nowhere near government devices. It's not on a shared device. It's cordoned off. app that the president was obviously willing to ban, I think that they are willing to get past any concerns about irony or hypocrisy if they can reach voters, especially young voters,

who they're having trouble with generally. Which makes this recent Truth Social post from former President Trump kind of entertaining. He actually put out this post saying, quote, just so everyone knows, especially the young people, Joe Biden is responsible for banning TikTok. Which isn't also, again, another irony here, because when he was president, Donald Trump was also opposing TikTok. But now he's against the ban. Right. I mean, the Trump administration is sort of the ones that started this in the first place. And, you know, back to the point of just, you know, how quickly this moved and differently than the pace of things normally in Washington. I mean, there was also this investigation launched under the Trump administration by CFIUS, this body that examines foreign ownership of companies and, you know, has in the past forced divestitures, for example,

with the app Grindr. You know, that investigation, as far as we know, hasn't concluded. And yet Congress moved quickly on it, you know, at this moment. It's just sort of there's a lot of questions around these timelines. Now, the ban, if it were to happen, would not take effect until after the November election. Convenient. And I believe, if I'm correct, the final version of the legislation shifted that moment of reckoning until after the election, which probably got it bipartisan support. Yeah, it certainly helped make it through Congress is giving them. And I do think, look, there was a lot of skepticism and there maintained some skepticism on Capitol Hill about this type of singular regulation of one company. And it's almost certainly going to go through legal challenges. But there was some lawmaker resistance to this idea. This isn't something Congress does a lot.

It is a pretty extraordinary act. I think, again, it goes back to this and we don't know the answer to it, but at least behind closed doors, it was a compelling enough case that an overwhelming number of lawmakers believed that this was necessary for the national security of the United States. There was a massive amount of last minute lobbying from TikTok users. Sure. Calling members of Congress. Which seems to have backfired, right? I mean, there are members of Congress who said, you know, that was actually the sort of thing. They then felt like that was an example of how the platform could be manipulated. Yeah. It's also like a way just politically, it's such an unusual thing because, well,

one, Congress doesn't do a whole lot to begin with. Right. But it's rare to see government, and this is, I'm oversimplifying this for political terms, but it's rare to see the government try to take away something that's really popular and people like, right? Like social media is a defining feature of our lives now, and people tend to feel pretty positive about it and they rely on it. And this is much more complicated and people might have access to TikTok for the rest of their lives, depending on how the sale

and everything goes out. But the sense of this is that like the government is trying to regulate speech or how you get your information. And I think it can create a real public backlash towards members that did this because the perception of what government is trying to do here, I think turns a lot of people off. is trying to do here, I think, turns a lot of people off. And again, I mean, I think one of the things to really get back to here is, like you said, we don't, we haven't seen sort of the particular evidence that TikTok is, you know, worse than some of these other apps, you know, in these questions, whether it's data privacy or whether

it is, you know, spreading propaganda and disinformation. But you're targeting just one company here. And you could make, frankly, the arguments that have been made about TikTok, you could make about Facebook. You could make about X, certainly. Even though there is bipartisan support in a lot of ways, say, around child safety and concerns about child safety on social media, we have not seen Congress move nearly as quickly. I mean, you did hear that from some members of Congress, including Senator Markey of Massachusetts, saying, you know, he just he felt like, you know, any of these claims

you can make about TikTok, you could be making about these other companies. And his view is, why are we not passing more comprehensive regulation of the tech industry? Well, Sue, that would be hard. I don't think that that's something that's going to be happening anytime soon. But I do think that there is like there is actually increasing pressure and interest in looking at the tech industry more aggressively and in both parties. And I think it's an industry that doesn't have as many friends in Washington as compared to other major U.S. industries. So there is certainly momentum there. But this is this is going to take a very long time for any kind of comprehensive regulation, certainly of social media companies and how people access information.

All right. Well, Shannon, thank you for coming back on the pod. Always happy to do it. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.