The NPR Politics Podcast - Title 42 Is Set To End. What Happens Next?

Episode Date: May 3, 2023

The public health policy was implemented by the Trump administration as a way to limit migration to the United States during the pandemic, and the Biden administration kept it in place, despite criticism from many Democrats. With the policy set to be rescinded this month, what will happen to U.S. immigration policy as a result? The podcast is produced by Elena Moore and Casey Morell. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Unlock access to this and other bonus content by supporting The NPR Politics Podcast+. Sign up via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hi, my name is DA here in San Francisco, California, where I am currently doing my morning ritual that is staring blankly out the window at the rolling hills freckled with colorful houses, sipping on my morning coffee and taking in some sun rays with my cat Charlie as we wait for the first meeting of the day to start. This podcast was recorded at 938 a.m. Eastern Time on Wednesday, May 3rd of 2023. Things may have changed by the time you hear this, but one thing certainly won't. Charlie will still be laying lazily around, soaking up the sun, but my quiet morning of blank stares will have given way to a busy day of Zoom meetings and floor plan reviews. Oh, gotta go.

That does sound like a lovely way, though, to begin your morning. I'd like to hang out with Charlie. Well, hey there. It's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. I'm Frank Ordonez. I also cover the White House. And I'm Mara Liason, national political correspondent. And today on the show, U.S. border policy and why President Biden is sending 1,500 more troops to the southern border. That brings the total number of service members to 4,000. And they're there at the border because Title 42 is ending.

I'm sure you all have heard us talk about Title 42 a lot on this show. That is a pandemic-era rule that the administration has been using to reject asylum seekers without a hearing. It's going to end on May 11th, and the flow of migrants is expected to reach as many as 10,000 a day after that. Franco, I want to actually begin with a policy question, which is, this certainly poses challenges to the White House. I don't have a clear sense of what the White House is planning to do from a policy perspective on immigration once Title 42 comes

to an end. I mean, there's a lot of questions about what the administration is going to do. This is going to be a huge, huge challenge for the White House. And they know that. You just talked about the 10,000 a day. Some say 13,000 a day. It is going to be very difficult. They are scrambling to try to get control of the situation. That's why they've been making all these policy moves, sending the National Guard there. That's in order to kind of free up the border agents to do their law enforcement. And the United States reached a deal with Mexico where Mexico announced that they agreed to continue taking migrants from Venezuela, Haiti, Cuba, and Nicaragua when they're deported. And that's been a big

question because the administration has really been ramping up deportations, daily flights, and there's been questions about where they will be able to go. They cannot deport people unless they have somewhere they can go. So the administration is working very, very hard to try to get control of a quickly without being able to apply for asylum or any reason. That's actually what I wanted to ask you about. If you could help us connect the dots as to why this pandemic rule is expected to lead to such a large increase of people at the southern border. Well, first of all, it's a public health policy that the Trump administration put in place. Many argue that it's more of an immigration policy, less for public health. The Biden administration actually kept it going to great controversy among their supporters who wanted it removed immediately. But essentially, because Title 42 is a public

health rule, it allows the government to say, no, you cannot come to the United States, even if you're seeking asylum. So basically, anybody who comes in can be sent back. The United States administration did make exceptions and certain extreme cases or major cases, but the majority of the migrants were sent back under this rule. So lifting that basically shifts things back to the way it was. So if a migrant comes to the border and says that they have a credible fear of returning for religious reasons, political persecution reasons, they have the right to have a hearing to make their case. That means a court date. That means being allowed to perhaps stay in the country. So this is an opportunity for migrants to have a better chance of being

able to arrive in the country and stay in the country. There seems to be, Mara, a lot of public blowback, certainly from Republicans, as to how the administration has been handling this situation leading up to these, you know, few weeks that we've been seeing of the lifting of Title 42. We've been hearing constant criticism from Republicans. This is an issue that it seems has been particularly challenging for the administration. This is a huge problem for the administration politically. Republicans consider immigration one of their top issues. There's constant focus on what they say is chaos at the border. And the White House, when you ask them about this, the politics of this, they say it doesn't really matter to their voters and the people that they need to get. It's mostly a Republican issue, and that might be true. But the picture of chaos anywhere, whether it's withdrawal from Afghanistan,

people at the border, that hurts the incumbent. And Joe Biden ran as being a competent manager who could solve problems and would be the opposite of the chaos of the Trump years. And a chaotic border just undermines that argument. So they have to get the border under control. They're trying to do it with more centers in Central America where people can apply for asylum so they don't have to go on the dangerous trek to the border. Or now trying to find ways that they can surge personnel to the border to make the asylum process faster and more efficient. But what they're trying to do is avoid pictures of chaos at the southern border. That's the bottom line. All right, well, let's take a quick break,

and we'll be back in a moment. And we're back. And, Frank, I want to ask you a sort of basic question here, but I think it's very important. Can you help us understand who the folks are who are coming to the U.S. southern border? Why are they leaving their home countries? I mean, it's really so many people across the Western Hemisphere who are fleeing poverty, violence, oppression. I mean, more recently, in recent years, you've also had increasingly extreme weather that is driving people to leave. And notably, over the last several months, the last year, the numbers have really skyrocketed around four countries in particular, Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, and Haiti, which are

dealing with all those things, poverty and violence, but also a lot of political turmoil. You know, this administration has tried to emphasize that solving this situation is not just about what happens at the U.S. southern border, but it's about what they call root causes of migration, right? Essentially addressing the problems at the source countries that lead to the reasons why people are migrating. This was part of the portfolio for the vice president. I know there's been a lot of focus on this issue from the White House. Have you seen any indication that, you know, that they've had results? I mean, that is probably one of the toughest jobs that the vice president had trying to address the root causes of migration because those causes are so large. They're so dramatic. And it's really hard for one country to solve the problems of another country that's hundreds or thousands miles of way.

I mean, also, I mean, these are problems that, you know, in Central America, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador have been dealing with for decades and decades, these corruption in the government's instability in their law enforcement, violence and poverty. I mean, these are things that are really hard to tackle. And also, I mean, one thing that critics often tell me is like, the United States can't want to fix these problems more than the governments themselves. So it is a huge, huge problem to tackle. The United States has already invested billions and billions of

dollars over previous administrations. And this problem continues. Biden is being criticized by both the right, I will say we talked about that earlier, but also by the left on this issue of immigration. And, you know, I wonder if either one of you sees the way in which he has tried to deal with this situation as an indication that he is trying to tack to the middle. And will we expect to see more of that? And how does he really navigate the situation? I mean, I won't even say just from the left. Like I saw a statement that I think it was Senator Bob Menendez put out criticizing him for sending additional troops to the border.

I mean, this is a very challenging issue for him to navigate. Yeah, it's super challenging. He has his own party pushing him for a more, quote, humane immigration policy. He's got the Republicans who are pushing this chaos at the border message. But then there's the larger question, which is that the United States has a labor shortage. Immigration is one of the only ways to solve it. And the problem of allowing high-skill immigration, just legal immigration in general, has been ignored by Congress for years and years. Comprehensive immigration reform, which includes border security, a permanent solution for all those DACA kids, some kind of a regulated legal

immigration program. That's just something that Congress has tried and failed at over and over again. Yeah, I would just add that. I mean, you can see, you know, the challenges that Biden faces here, you know, in many ways, you know, in the lawsuits that are being filed against him on the right, regardless of what steps the administration tries to do to, you know, make it tougher to enter, the right is kind of filing lawsuits and criticizing Biden for, you know, quote unquote, open borders, regardless of what they do, they're always going to call it open borders. And on the left, when the administration does take action, for example, one of the rules is to prevent migrants who do not enter along legal ports of entry to prevent them from taking asylum. Advocates are calling that a transit ban and saying that looks just like the Trump administration. So they're also threatening lawsuits. I mean, there's in both directions. The administration is having, you know, being criticized. That said, it is taking more steps to prevent and decrease migration for the reasons that Mara was talking about before, you know, not wanting to be uncontrollable. And as you say, you know, to tack to the center, because, you know, in 2024, President Biden is not facing a challenge from the left.

He's got a big challenge from the right. And immigration is one of the most vulnerable spots. I mean, do you see the positioning that he's taking, though, on immigration, posing any challenges to him within his own party? I mean, there are Democrats who see what he's doing with sending troops to the border as a militarization of the border. Those were the words of Senator Bob Menendez, a Democrat from New Jersey. He is not part of the progressive left of his party, I would traditionally say. Well, he is on this issue. And don't forget, he's Cuban-American. And there are a lot of cross-currents to the politics here. But I would say from the White House point of view, the answer to your question is no. Tell me more. They're not worried about a challenge from the left. This is a president who is not going to be primaried. There's no deep ideological rift in the

party that would lead to a primary challenge. And I think what they're more worried about for the politics is from the right. And as we've both said, the images of chaos at the border, which makes Joe Biden look less than competent. All right. Well, on that note, let's leave it there for today. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. I'm Frank Ordonez. I also cover the White House. And I'm Mara Liason, national political correspondent. And thank you all, as always, for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.