The NPR Politics Podcast - Trump Organization, CFO Are Criminally Charged. What Does It Mean For Trump?

Episode Date: July 1, 2021

Former President Donald Trump's family business and its longtime chief financial officer, Allen Weisselberg, have been criminally charged by the Manhattan district attorney's office in a case involving alleged tax-related crimes. The former president was not charged, but it's his name on the business. How could this impact him?This episode: Congressional correspondent Susan Davis, justice correspondent Ryan Lucas, White House correspondent Tamara Keith, senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro, and journalist Andrea Bernstein (author of American Oligarchs: The Kushners, the Trumps, and the Marriage of Money and Power).Connect:Subscribe to the NPR Politics Podcast here.Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Listen to our playlist The NPR Politics Daily Workout.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Susan Davis. I cover Congress. And I'm Ryan Lucas. I cover the Justice Department. And it is 4.12 p.m. on Thursday, July 1st. And this afternoon, the Manhattan District Attorney's Office charged the Trump Organization and its chief financial officer, Alan Weisselberg, for alleged tax crimes. Joining us to talk through the case is Andrea Bernstein, who covered the court appearance for NPR. Hey, Andrea. Hey, it's so great to be on with you all. It's so good to have you on the podcast. Can you start us off by talking about what the

charges are in this case? Yes. So this is a 15-count criminal indictment. Both Trump's chief financial officer, Alan Weisselberg, and his company are charged with serious crimes, the most serious of which is a charge to Alan Weisselberg of grand larceny in the second degree. And I've spoken to a few criminal lawyers in the two hours since the indictment was handed up. And they both feel like a C felony. It carries significant prison time in New York, up to 15 years in prison. It's pretty serious. And the crime specifically that Allen Weisselberg is charged with, or the crimes, essentially stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars from taxpayers by the indictment alleges, deliberately issuing

his compensation in ways that would hide it from taxing authorities. And the charges that he did it over more than 15 years, and that the Trump organization also went along in this scheme and participated in this scheme to defraud. What was he doing with the money that he was stealing, allegedly stealing? So everything from paying for the leases for very nice Mercedes Benzes from him and his wife, paying for his grandchildren's very expensive private school tuition in Manhattan. And one part of this alleged scheme was that he lied about living in New York City, that he did live in New York City, but that he claimed he did not for tax purposes.

So in these alleged crimes, it wasn't just about money. It was about sort of non-monetary gifts as well? That's right. That's the nut of it, that Allen Wesselberg paid himself through things like car leases for a Mercedes-Benz and expensive apartments that he lived in and designated these things as corporate expenditures, which means that they would be exempt from taxes, when in fact, according to the indictment, they were allegedly a way of paying himself to avoid paying taxes. What was interesting to me is that there were a lot of detailed records that were apparently kept. For example, there was a ledger that compared his non-cash, aka

income that was disguised to avoid paying taxes taxes and deducted from what would have been his cash income. And there's another point in the indictment where, as it's described, he had directed that his grandchildren's private school tuition be paid, it said per Allen Weisselberg, in a notation. And according to the indictment in September of 2016, so obviously height of the official book, so to speak. And it just is astounding that they would have that. How is the Weisselberg legal team responded to the charges? So Alan Weisselberg's legal team has issued some pretty terse statements. And they've basically been Alan Weisselberg is pleading not guilty and he will fight this in court.

And even in the courtroom today, it was sort of interesting because the assistant attorney general who stood up on the case, Kerry Dunn, addressed the issue of is this a political case head on? He said this is not politics. This is based on the facts. And basically, the Weisselberg lawyers had little to say. And there was an expectation that they might actually try to argue about the indictment in court, but they didn't do that. They had a very terse statement. The Trump organization had a very terse statement inside the courtroom, outside the courtroom, a little more expansive. The Trump organization's attorney, Alan Futerfuss, sort of leaned into the idea that this is a political prosecution and that the former presidents and his company and his chief financial officer are being persecuted because of the name Trump.

But I believe the political forces driving today's events are just that. It's politically driven. Yeah. Another thing that Fudderfoss said was that, you know, in the country's history, we have not had a local prosecutor go after a former president of the U.S. or his employees or a company. And so he said that this is a significant line to cross. Clearly, the Trump organization's political strategy, and we've heard this from the former president himself many times, is trying to pitch this as a politically driven witch hunt, more or less. Although the Trump organization's attorney certainly did not use politically driven witch hunt, more or less, although the Trump organization's attorney certainly did not use the term witch hunt. The other argument that we heard from Fyodor Foss was that it's unprecedented to bring charges like this against a company over

kind of off the books compensation. He said that this is something that would normally be settled in civil court, that this is not something that merits criminal prosecution in his view. On the other hand, as some criminal attorneys have pointed out, if the authorities find that you're doing this, they're going to charge you for it. And in this instance, it appears from the indictment that authorities believe that they have the goods to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that these sorts of crimes were being committed. Can you explain to us who Alan Weisselberg is to Donald Trump? Yeah. And I have to say that I was sitting in the courtroom this afternoon and it felt so dramatic. I've been in the courtroom for Trump's former

campaign manager, Paul Manafort's case. I was there when his former personal attorney and chief aide at the Trump Organization, Michael Cohen, walked in to plead guilty. And today felt different. And I think the reason that it felt different is because Allen Weisselberg is sort of a corporate alter ego for Donald Trump. He's been at the company since 1973, since it was Donald Trump's father, Fred Trump's company. And he has been there through thick and thin. And this is also really unusual. I mean, we saw what happened with the presidency. Cabinet officials came and went.

Senior advisors came and went. His company was like that, too. There was this churn and this royal of employees. But Allen Weisselberg was there the whole time. And if anybody other than Donald Trump personified the company, it would be Allen Weisselberg. And there he is in his 70s, slightly stooped, wearing a KN95 mask, walking into this courtroom in handcuffs. And that was a really startling and long way from the literally gilded offices of Trump Tower, where Allen Weisselberg works and presumably is going

to go back to work tomorrow. And it's Weisselberg who was running the company along with Trump's sons, Eric and Don Jr., while Trump was in the White House. Is there any clarity from the district attorney's office over whether this investigation is ongoing or is this the only indictment you're expected to see after this year's long investigation? Yeah. I mean, the DA's office said as much, said that it's ongoing. The DA had no comment because it's ongoing. And then in court, they sought and received a protective order to protect evidence against possible further charges against we don't know who. So just to put a fine point on this, the former president was not implicated in today's indictment. But because this investigation is ongoing, it's unclear what future legal problems he could have related to this case. That's right. He was he was not charged in the indictment that came out today.

It was Allen Weisselberg and the Trump organization. But it was the Trump organization that bears the name of Donald Trump. It is his organization. So he is implicated in a sense in what transpired or what is accused, what is alleged to have transpired. And this investigation is ongoing. The DA's office is continuing to dig. There is the possibility that they will try to get Weisselberg to flip, to cooperate and potentially implicate Donald Trump if he has such information. So Donald Trump is not out of the legal woods yet just because he was not charged in today's indictment. All right, Andrea, Ryan, I know you both have to get back to

work. So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. It was a great discussion and I'm really happy to have gotten a chance to speak to you all. Thanks, Sue. Okay, let's take a quick break and when we get back, we'll talk about what this might mean

for former President Trump. Capitalism touches every part of our lives. Capitalism is a giant force that I don't understand. I feel that it's a very safe system. I'm constantly in fear

of losing my job. It is our biggest success and our biggest failure. On this special series from ThruLine, Capitalism. Listen now to the ThruLine podcast from NPR. And we're back and we're joined by Tamara Keith and Domenico Montanaro. Hey, friends. Hey. Hello. So, Tam, has Trump responded to the charges brought against his CFO and his organization? Yeah, the former president has put out two statements this afternoon. They're both in tweet length, but obviously not on Twitter. He says, quote, the political witch hunt by the radical left Democrats with New York now taking over the assignment continues.

It is dividing our country like never before. And then his other statement essentially says that, you know, this is aimed at negating the votes of 75 million plus plus plus voters. In essence, this is exactly the argument we expected him to make. And in fact, you know, if you had asked me what Trump would say if Allen Weisselberg was indicted six months ago, we probably could have written that statement. We could have written that statement. You know, former President Trump is continuing to stay active in politics, is continuing to tease the idea of being a candidate for president in 2024. And he was never going to say, oh, wow, yeah, they've got some serious charges against my organization. Of course not. Well, whether he thinks it or not, he's certainly trying to spin it that way, right? I mean, that's sort of his thing, right? He's saying, let's dismiss all of these things that really don't have to do with the election at all, or the people who voted for me,

and let's politicize it. So then you essentially muddy up the jury pool of American public opinion, you know, and put half of the country in one corner, while the others focus on the facts or cheerlead for the fact that there's some criminal activity against the Trump organization. Well, and I would argue that you don't need a statement from President Trump for his voters to, by default, question the validity of such a prosecution. Tam, the White House has not weighed in on this, right? Yeah. So President Biden was just asked about this.

He is in Florida. He just spent three hours visiting victims, families of victims of that terrible building collapse in Surfside, Florida. But he was asked about the case. He says that he's not paying attention to it. But even if he was, he wouldn't comment on an ongoing investigation, which is, you know, a pretty standard thing for a president to say and to do. The past administration, when they did comment on ongoing investigations, was out of the ordinary. Domenico, I'm curious of what your take is on this politically, because as I think about it, Trump has defied political expectations and norms again and again and again. And I will be very frank and say,

I'm not sure that I see this news today hurting him really in any way politically. Yeah, I mean, look, Trump has certainly been the Teflon Don of politics, unquestionably. Nothing has stuck to the guy. But these are pretty serious charges. You know, you're talking about 15 felony counts, you know, alleged tax schemes that have stretched back more than a decade or so here. You know, and that's just, I guess, where they went to to to see what they could get. off the top that Tam was making about how politicized this becomes, how much he wants it, former President Trump, to be politicized so that the people who were in his camp don't start to question if some of this stuff is true. That being said, the more that he's been out of the public eye, the more you start to hear, at least anecdotally, from Trump supporters or people who voted for Trump, that they do wonder if there's some validity to these charges. They also question whether or not they want to be totally on board the Trump train in 2024 if some of this stuff is real. Now,

a lot of this over the next month or two is going to be fought out in the public arena. And if Trump can insulate himself from some of this, then it won't affect him politically. But if he can't, and some of it looks like it's coming back to him, or Weisselberg decides that he's going to maybe feel the pressure and turn on Trump, that's when we could see things start to change. But right now, I agree with you. Look, I don't want to diminish the seriousness of these charges because they are obviously serious criminal charges. But when I look at this through a political lens, I'm not sure that these are the kinds of things that could really hurt Trump politically, especially after coming after years of investigation into his organization

and what amounts to essentially just charges that look like Allen Weisselberg wasn't running a very good organization. And I don't know if that's something that voters would then turn around and blame the president for or politically harm him in some way. Well, the company has his name on it. So, you know, you do wonder how many of these little sticks and branches wind up piling on the camel before it breaks the back. You know, and if people, Republicans say, you know, do we really want all that? But look, Trump is clearly still very popular with the Republican base. So whether this changes it exactly, probably not today.

It almost seems as though, you know, unless President Trump himself, former President Trump himself, is actually indicted or beyond that, like convicted by a jury of his peers, it seems pretty unlikely that this sort of thing is going to affect his political career. I mean, there have been any number of other revelations over the last many years that just rolled right off. All right. I think that's a wrap for today, but we'll be back in your feeds tomorrow with the Weekly Roundup. I'm Susan Davis. I cover Congress. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent. And thanks for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.