The NPR Politics Podcast - Trump's New Charges Stem From His Attempt To Subvert The Election

Episode Date: August 2, 2023

Former President Trump has been indicted for his role in attempting to overturn the results of the 2020 election, an effort that reached a bloody crescendo on Jan. 6, 2021. Trump faces four federal criminal charges, including conspiracy to defraud the United States. Six unnamed individuals were listed alongside Trump as alleged co-conspirators, but have not yet been charged.This episode: political correspondent Ashley Lopez, national justice correspondent Carrie Johnson, and senior political editor and correspondent Ron Elving.The podcast is produced by Elena Moore and Casey Morell. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Unlock access to this and other bonus content by supporting The NPR Politics Podcast+. Sign up via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from the NPR Wine Club, which has generated over $1.75 million to support NPR programming. Whether buying a few bottles or joining the club, you can learn more at nprwineclub. It's 7.25 p.m. Eastern Time on Tuesday, August 1st. I'm Ashley Lopez. I cover politics. I'm Keri Johnson, national justice correspondent. And I'm Ron Elving, editor correspondent. Donald Trump is facing four new charges over his role in trying to stop the certification of the presidential election on January 6, 2021. The charges come from Special Counsel Jack Smith. The attack on our nation's capital on January 6,

2021, was an unprecedented assault on the seat of American democracy. As described in the indictment, it was fueled by lies. Lies by the defendant targeted at obstructing a bedrock function of the U.S. government, the nation's process of collecting, counting, and certifying the results of the presidential election. All right, lots to go through here, Kerry. Let's start with you. I mean, big stuff up top. What is Trump being charged with? He faces four felony charges. They include conspiracy to defraud the United States, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, another obstruction charge, and conspiracy against rights, which is basically interfering with people's right to vote. But really, at its core, the Cliff Notes version of this is that the special counsel says Donald Trump knew he lost the 2020 presidential election, but he kept lying about it. And he created this atmosphere of fear and chaos.

And then he exploited violence at the Capitol on January 6th to try to delay the certification, including leaning on his own vice president, Mike Pence. Yeah, four different charges here. And to be very clear, I mean, these are totally new and separate from the withholding classified documents case that we've also been hearing a lot about, right? Totally separate. This one is in Washington, D.C. The classified documents case revolves around Trump's resort Mar-a-Lago in Florida. Donald Trump is not only the first former president to be charged by a government he once led, he's now been charged twice by the government he once led. And Ron, I feel like this is something we say a lot, but it's true now as it's ever been, right? This is history. This is history.

And it reminds me of some other moments in history when significant developments happened in cases having to do with the president. I'm thinking here about finding out that Richard Nixon had tape recorded everything he said in the Oval Office. That was a jaw dropping moment in the Watergate hearings, and everything that happened in those hearings came from that. The significance, perhaps, of that comparison is that with Richard Nixon, even people who had voted for him, and he carried 49 states in his re-election, even people who voted for him began to contemplate that there was real criminality involved in the Watergate scandal and their president had been involved in those

crimes. So, you know, there's a feeling you just sort of have at a particular moment like this, no matter how many of them or how few of them, really, one might have experienced over the years and had that feeling this afternoon. And how has the former President Donald Trump reacted to the charges, Ron? Anything from him yet? Yes, he has put out a statement on True Social. It's not terribly long.

Let me just go ahead and quote it. I hear that deranged Jack Smith, which is a term he has been using for the special counsel. I hear that deranged Jack Smith, in order to interfere with the presidential election of 2024, will be putting out yet another fake indictment of your favorite president, me. his prosecutors and FBI agents on this case and other high-profile investigations in the Justice Department. And Jack Smith used his time, his brief time in remarks to us today, to talk about the men and women in law enforcement at the U.S. Capitol on January 6th who literally put their lives on the line defending the Capitol. The men and women of law enforcement who defended the U.S. Capitol on January 6th are heroes. They are patriots and they are the very best of us.

They did not just defend a building or the people sheltering in it. They put their lives on the line to defend who we are as a country and as a people. They defended the very institutions and principles that define the United States. Remember, 140 law enforcement officers were injured by rioters who beat them with their fists, with spray, with flagpoles, with sticks, with all kinds of other instruments of destruction. And Jack Smith also said today, interestingly enough, his investigation is not done. And you know, two and a half years sounds like a long time. But I think we'll find out as we get to trial and as people read this indictment and people should read this indictment.

It's 45 pages. It doesn't take that long. At trial and reading the indictment, you see what has happened over the last two and a half years and how this evidence has been amassed and why that takes time. Well, this is a great place to take a quick break. More in a moment. It's part of a long tradition. Journalists from all over the country descend on the state of Iowa for an event unlike anything anywhere else. There's definitely a lot of campaign deja vu, but people just aren't, they're not in the mood to talk about politics. Why Tamara Keith is taking a break from covering the White House to ride a bike across the state of Iowa and eat a lot of pie. It is the only 500

mile bike ride where you can gain weight because you eat so much pie. That's in our latest bonus episode for NPR Politics Plus listeners, whose support helps make this show possible. And we are back. Let's get more into these charges. First, Carrie, obstruction of an official proceeding. We've seen that against other defendants. Many of the people who actually broke into the Capitol and the over a thousand cases that have come through since January 6th. Tell us more about this particular charge. Yeah, that's an old standby charge now

by now for these January 6th prosecution team members. Dozens and dozens of people have been charged with that crime already in this sprawling investigation by the Justice Department. Many of them have been convicted. Some defendants are trying to challenge the integrity of that legal argument. And there are a couple, I think, a couple of petitions seeking Supreme Court review on the basis that the statute is not entirely clear. So we're going to have to wait and see what that happens. But the vast majority of lower court judges here in Washington, D.C. have upheld those charges and accepted guilty pleas on that basis. And then there's the conspiracy to defraud the United States and something called conspiracy against rights. What is that charge? Yeah. So basically, this indictment puts Donald Trump at the center of three alleged conspiracies.

One is that conspiracy against rights. And that's an old law. That's a post-Civil War, Reconstruction-era law that has been used to prosecute people who have tampered with the voting rights of others. And that's the central allegation in this case, that the former president and perhaps some co-conspirators had advanced this bogus theory about election fraud to try to cling to power and stay in the White House. And that as a result, some people were putting forward slates of fake electors in seven swing states to try to replace the legitimate electors. And that was basically tampering with other people's voting rights. The right to vote involves both the right to go to a polling place and cast one's legal vote, and also the right to have it count, the

right to have it properly recorded and counted towards the final result. And that was clearly what was being subverted by this plot. The other thing that really struck me was that, you know, the former president and several of his actions and inactions are chronicled in this indictment on the day of January 6th. You know, the attempts by other people in the White House to try to get him to quell the riot, to speak out, and Trump's refusal for a long time to do that. We heard all about that, of course, in the congressional January 6th committee, but it makes an emergence here in these criminal charges, too. Carrie, when is Trump expected to appear in court? And I wonder if we know anything about the judge in this case. Donald Trump has been summoned to appear in federal court here in Washington, which, by the way, is just down the street from the U.S. Capitol on August 3rd at 4 p.m. in front of a magistrate judge. The way this court works is that a person could zoom in,

do a Zoom hearing, but it remains to be seen whether the former president will want to show up in person and make a splash in the courthouse. And then moving forward, this case has been assigned to a judge named Tanya Chutkin. She was appointed to the bench, including a case involving the former president trying to keep documents away from that House Select Committee investigating January 6th. She's also got a reputation as a tough sentencer in these January 6th cases. In fact, Ashley, I saw her in the atrium of the courthouse earlier today, walking quite serenely. There was no hint at all that she would be the one to wind up with this historic case. There is literally a lottery that is held. It's done electronically now, but it used to be done

with a mechanical wheel with cards in it to determine which of the eligible and available judges in this particular jurisdiction should be assigned. That's how she got the case. I do want to talk about, Carrie, about six co-conspirators who are mentioned in this indictment, but they're not named. They're like named co-conspirator number one, two, that sort of thing. What do you make of that? Okay, so in advance of this indictment, the former president told us around July 18th that he had received a target letter, and it set off a round of calls and activity from reporters. They couldn't find anybody else who had received a target letter in this case. The reason why is that Donald Trump is the sole defendant charged in this case. But six people are mentioned as alleged co-conspirators. They're described as attorneys who knowingly spread false claims about the election. a fake elector theory, a Justice Department official in the Trump Justice Department who

is trying to use his authority there to open sham investigations of fake election crimes. And these descriptions in this indictment track fairly closely to people we know who have been of interest to investigators. Those people include Rudy Giuliani, John Eastman, Jeffrey Clark, Sidney Powell, and others. I want to get some final thoughts from you guys, just looking forward, what you're going to be looking out for. Ron, let's start with you. What are you going to be looking out for as, you know, the weeks and months to come after these charges? There is a question mark over the reaction of Trump supporters. Now, we have all seen polls

in just most recent days that show that his lead over all of the other candidates who would like to be the Republican nominee in 2024 is overwhelming. It's 35, it's 40 points. So what happens to that enormous lead? You do have to say that only a little more than half of the Republicans say they've already decided to vote for Donald Trump for the nomination in 2024. Do the others begin to feel more restive? Do some of the half of the party that wants Donald Trump start to ask questions about whether or not he would be the strongest candidate in 2024? We'll be watching that very carefully. One of the things that I've kept hearing from, you know, people I run into at the grocery store or lawyers I see around town is, you know, the Justice Department has prosecuted over a thousand people in connection with the riot on January 6th.

But the highest ranking until today, people who have been charged with other crimes like seditious conspiracy were leaders of the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers. And so today is a day when Donald Trump, the alleged mastermind of this bogus election fraud theory, is actually facing four felony charges voted on by a Washington, D.C. grand jury. And one of the things we've been hearing from Attorney General Merrick Garland and Special Counsel Jack Smith, is that no person is above the law. And I'm going to be watching to see how this court system in D.C., which has handled so many hundreds of cases involving rioters already, handles the case involving a former president who's running for reelection and leading in the polls in the Republican Party right now. Lots to watch out for. All right, let's leave it there for today. And before we go, just a huge thank you to everyone who listens

and who supports us either by supporting NPR Politics Plus or your local NPR news station. We simply would not be able to cover news like this without you. And if you are in a place to support us directly, you can do it at plus.npr.org slash politics. It'll get you a little behind the scenes content a few times a month and episodes without sponsor messages. We are so grateful for your support. I'm Ashley Lopez. I cover politics. I'm Carrie Johnson. I cover the Justice Department.

And I'm Ron Elming, editor correspondent. Thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.