The NPR Politics Podcast - U.S. Officials Allege Ballooning Chinese Espionage Threat

Episode Date: February 10, 2023

China has sent surveillance balloons over more than 40 countries across five continents and the Biden administration is in touch with other countries about the scope of the program, according to information provided by the Biden administration. And voting officials in Pennsylvania continue to deal with election misinformation and advocates hope some election reforms could help fend off any disruptions in 2024.This episode: White House correspondent Tamara Keith, political correspondent Susan Davis, China correspondent John Ruwitch, voting correspondent Hansi Lo Wang, and voting correspondent Miles Parks.This episode was produced by Elena Moore and Casey Morell. It was edited by Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Research and fact-checking by Devin Speak.Unlock access to this and other bonus content by supporting The NPR Politics Podcast+. Sign up via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org. Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hi, this is John in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and I'm starting my two-hour drive to LaGuardia to pick up my long-distance boyfriend flying in from Houston for his first visit to the city. This podcast was recorded at 12.09 p.m. on Friday, February 10th. Things may have changed by the time you hear this, but I'll still be taking him out to restaurants and teaching him how to pronounce Pashunk, Skookle, and Conchahokan. Okay, enjoy the show. I thought this was going to be Super Bowl related. I did too. I'm not sure that his boyfriend understands what he's about to get into in Philadelphia the weekend of the Super Bowl, but good luck to you both. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover

the White House. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. And NPR China correspondent John Rewich is here. Hey, John. Hey, guys. Hey, hey. The Biden administration has started to share what it is learning from the debris of the Chinese surveillance balloon shot down a week ago off the South Carolina coast. Sue, members of Congress were given a classified briefing this week. So what do we know now? You know, what's so fascinating about this interaction is that oftentimes administrations keep things under wraps, and they've actually been quite forthcoming. They declassified a ton of information to the

public even ahead of these briefings on the Hill. They disclosed a lot of what they know about the Chinese balloon. They disclosed, for instance, that the balloon was capable of intelligence collection and geolocating. They disclosed the size and scape of it, even the design of it. They disclosed that it had an antenna and solar panels. They also disclosed that the company that built the balloon has links to the Chinese military, very squarely putting the blame on China and saying, we know it was them. We know it was an intelligence operation. We know it wasn't a weather balloon. Exactly. They also, a number of Pentagon officials testified in public before the Senate this week. And, you know, there's a lot of anger on Capitol Hill about this, and we can talk more about that. But there was also a lot of questioning in public of

Pentagon officials about why it took them so long to shoot it down. Also, obviously, a big topic of lawmakers in their classified briefings as well. What the Pentagon officials said, and this did seem to mollify some Republicans, is that they detected the balloon over Alaska on January 28th. And they were aware of its movements until it was shot down off the coast of South Carolina days later. But what they testified was that the risk of intelligence collection to the government seemed relatively low. But the risk of shooting it down over land that could potentially have people casualties below was higher. So they just made a risk calculation. And that did seem to mollify at least one Republican. Mitt Romney of Utah came out and said that he thought that the Biden administration had fulsomely answered that

question. So, John, how is China dealing with all of this? China's reaction has been pretty interesting. They were a little flat footed on this when the story broke last week. But early on, they expressed regret over this thing floating, they said, unintentionally over U.S. airspace. Secretary of State Blinken was planning to travel to China just days after that. And the interpretation of many who watch China is that this was sort of an attempt to keep that trip on the books. It was since postponed. And since then, China's messaging has been a bit colder. It's been very disciplined.

You know, the foreign ministry daily briefings, which are pretty much the only opportunity that foreign reporters have to ask any Chinese government official about anything, you know, it's come up day after day. And their reaction, their response has been like a recording. You know, it was an up day after day and their reaction, their response has been like a recording. You know, it was an unintentional entry into U.S. airspace by a civilian airship for reasons that we couldn't control. The U.S. has overreacted. They've declined to comment on questions about what the balloon's equipment was all about and what its capabilities were.

And despite, you could say, being caught red-handed, as it were, you know, they have kind of stayed true to form and not missed any opportunities to spice things up. The spokeswoman this week, Mao Ning, implied that the U.S. is in fact the world's biggest offender in terms of surveillance and spying. She also said U.S. politicians are just trying to score political points by dramatizing the whole thing. Well, so it sounds like it was actually, we regret that you're upset about our balloon and not we regret the balloon. There was a we regret. The regret was this. We had no control. You know how the wind works. We had no control over the wind. This thing blew over your country.

So don't worry about it. But to be clear, one thing that U.S. officials have been saying this week is this is not the first balloon ever. Not the first balloon ever and not isolated to the U.S. Another key detail of the declassification documents is they say that this is part of a more global Chinese effort of surveillance. They said it was part of an effort to surveil 40 countries over five continents. The methods of those surveillance still not entirely clear, but clearly not one balloon caught in the wrong wind gust, although good spin on their part. And China, by the way, for their part, they've been asked about this, quote unquote, fleet of balloons that's been flying over 40 countries. And the response from the foreign ministry spokeswoman this week has been,

I know nothing about it. So can we talk about domestic politics here, Sue? Earlier this week, there was a very clear divide between Democrats and Republicans, with Republicans saying it should have been shot down sooner. What do the politics of the balloon look like at the end of the week? It's complicated because I do think that there are still some substantial criticisms of the president and the administration for not acting sooner. Even, you know, some Democrats, Brian Schatz of Hawaii, also kind of raised the question of maybe it isn't such a bad thing to take things down as soon as they enter our airspace. Like a more aggressive posture on these things could behoove the U.S. national security. There's also home state politics. Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, John Tester, a Democrat from Montana, also were very angry. But I think the balloon was floating over their states over the course of this week. And I think they want to look strong to their own constituents to say, like, I don't support letting Chinese surveillance balloons hang out over our states. So there's also this sort of small domestic local politics of this. But broadly, the politics towards China are actually an area where there's a tremendous amount of bipartisan, at least support for action

and more aggressive postures. By the end of the week, the House had passed a resolution condemning China for the balloon. It passed unanimously through the House. A similar resolution is expected to go through the Senate and probably pass with similar overwhelming support. The House has established a new select committee on China. There is a lot of alliance here in the U.S. taking a more forceful posture towards China, both in terms of military and national security, but also economic. And the problem is I don't think there's, as of right now, complete unanimity on what those answers and policy should be. But the support for starting to take more aggressive action and more coherent, aggressive action towards China, I think, is pretty overwhelming in Washington right now. It might be the singular thing in Washington that has the most support.

I just want to make a quick point based on what Sue said, that bipartisanship on China is not lost on the leadership in Beijing. There is a lot of mistrust and I guess cynicism on their part about where the U.S. is coming from. They see everything through the lens of this concept that the U.S. is trying to encircle China and trying to hobble its development. This week, the Pentagon announced new basing agreements in the Philippines, and the US convinced Japan and the Netherlands to get on board with chip export controls. These types of things, it's all part of the same story for them. So that's the lens through which they're seeing this balloon. And it's a huge issue now because, you know, China is emerging from three years of self-imposed COVID isolation that really hurt the economy. It eroded trust in the leadership. It scared off foreign investors. And for this year, Xi Jinping's big priority is going to be the economy. To do that, he needs stable relations. And there is some reporting that U.S. officials think Xi Jinping probably didn't even know about this balloon. He wanted Blinken to visit. In recent months, he's been signaling a willingness to warm ties with the U.S., with the the West and kind of put a floor under things so that he can get China back on its feet?

But you're right. I mean, this now it gets whiplash. It puts that whole project on pause. It sort of pushes things off course and creates chaos. It's hard to see Blinken rescheduling that trip anytime soon. Yeah. All right. Well, John Rewich, we'll be watching that. Thank you so much for coming on the pod. Happy to do it. We're going to take a quickich, we'll be watching that. Thank you so much for coming on the pod. Happy to do it. We're going to take a quick break and we'll be back in a second.

And we're back. And Hansi Lo Wang is with us. Hello, Hansi. Hey, Tam. You cover elections for us and you've got a very interesting story that you're bringing. You know, it's been 27 months since President Biden won the 2020 election. But that election continues to haunt local elections officials across the country. They are still dealing with election deniers alleging fraud without anything to back it up, including lawsuits, ongoing criticism from local residents during public meetings, the whole thing. Well, the story of how election deniers, election denialism, how that is affecting U.S. democracy is not over. These are deep systemic problems inside this country's political system right now. And, you know, the midterm elections are over. The votes have been certified.

But these problems have not gone away. And you're seeing this playing out probably most prominently in swing states like Pennsylvania. Yeah. And you have some reporting out of Pennsylvania. What did you find? Well, I focused in this Philadelphia suburb called Delaware County, Pennsylvania, and officials there have been dealing with multiple lawsuits alleging election fraud with no substantial evidence. And, you know, the thing is, the county can't just ignore these lawsuits. They still have to go through legal proceedings, do the paperwork, and all that uses up public officials' time, taxpayer dollars. And there was a recent county council meeting where local officials sat through another round of public comments from folks criticizing officials for how they handled the election and bringing up allegations of election fraud without any evidence. And there was this really

remarkable moment when the county solicitor, William Martin, hit a breaking point. I am profoundly offended to listen to baseless allegations of fraud against me and against other county workers. It's time to put up or shut up. If you think there is fraud, sue me. Sue me. Sue me personally. Because then when it gets thrown out, I'll sue you for abuse of process. Sue me. Hansi, one of the details in your story that I found really surprising is that some places are still doing recounts. Yes. And there was a recount, controversial hand recount of 2020 results in January 2023. This came after a lot of pressure from some local residents who just did not believe that the results were accurate from November 2020.

As put out by Lycoming County election officials. There were allegations that those results were off by thousands of votes, but the results came out and the officials said that they found no significant difference between the recount and their original tallies from 2020. But the thing is, you know, a lot of local officials are not expecting necessarily that the misinformation, the campaigns from election deniers, that all that is going to go away. Are local election officials worried about what this means for the next election? I mean, two years after the 2020 presidential, they're still fighting it out. So what does that tell you about 2024?

There are a lot of fears about 2024. There are fears about elections that are taking place this year, some local elections. And, you know, right now, things may have quieted down somewhat because we're in this kind of pause between major elections. But there's the potential for, again, more misinformation, maybe more lawsuits. And you know, in Pennsylvania, this is really all tied up with how a state law started allowing all voters in the state to vote by mail in time for the 2020 election. And since then, there have been countless attacks on mail and voting from prominent Republicans like former President Donald Trump and from Republican politicians in Pennsylvania, some of whom who once publicly supported voting by mail,

and they've now turned it into this partisan flashpoint in this state that is really just drawing a lot of this misinformation and a lot of these allegations. This recount happened. The results came back. They were not substantively changed. There were not thousands of votes that were wrong. Does that satisfy election deniers? I mean, like, are they then going to say, well, now, now I'm satisfied and we can move on. And 2020 was totally fair. think there's really one spokesperson to really represent how all electioneers feel. But certainly, I think that election officials are preparing that that will not necessarily be the final word, if you will, that they are trying to gear up for what may be coming next. The potential here is that, you know, again, going back to mail-in voting in Pennsylvania, there are still some unanswered questions about what is allowed, what is not allowed in Pennsylvania.

There's some ongoing lawsuits. And with that legal uncertainty, that kind of leaves the door open for folks to raise questions, also to potentially spread misinformation. Is this unique to Pennsylvania? Are you seeing this happening in other states, especially the states that were also sort of critical or called into question in 2020? I'm thinking about places like Arizona and Georgia. This is not necessarily unique to Pennsylvania. I think particularly if you take a look at swing states around the country, this seems to be a very common theme. But in general, election officials around the country, this seems to be a very common theme. But in general, election officials around

the country are really burnt out in a lot of ways, because in lots of different pockets around the country, you see this happening still in different ways. And I think it really speaks to how this is in the water. And to get it out of the water, if you will, is not going to be an overnight thing. But there are also bad actors out there who are taking advantage of this uncertainty and that won't necessarily stop in time for 2024. And Sue, as Hansi said, we're talking about swing states in many cases. And the definition of a swing state is that it could decide the presidential election. What's fascinating to me in a lot of these swing states. And a lot of people who were election deniers or fueled election denialism actually did concede their elections and didn't continue to fuel it. So it feels like it might be on the

wane, hopefully. But if it doesn't actually affect the outcomes of elections, it's important to remember that, like Hansi's reporting, is that it creates and can create such an unbelievable bureaucratic headache for the administrative side of elections. Because like he's saying, like, you can't ignore a lawsuit that's filed over an election. If you have to do a recount, you have to do a recount. And the fact that in Pennsylvania, two years after the election, there are places that are still fighting out the election. It is a level of bureaucratic insanity, if not ultimately one that has so far dramatically affected election outcomes. Hansi, thank you so much for bringing your reporting to the podcast.

You're very welcome. We're going to take a quick break. And when we get back, it is time for Can't Let It Go. And we're back and it's time to end the show like we do every week with Can't Let It Go, the part of the pod where we talk about the things that we cannot stop thinking about, politics or otherwise, and we have brought in our ringer, Miles Parks. Happy to be here. You know, just on a Friday, there's nothing I like doing more than just like thinking of weird, funny stuff and talking about it with you guys.

Can't wait to hear it. I can't wait to hear the weird, funny stuff. So I'm going to go first. This is definitely funny. I don't know if it's weird. It's a little. Anyway, during the State of the Union address earlier this week, President Biden, in a particularly contentious moment with Republicans,

like, blurted out this line. As my football coach used to say, lots of luck in your senior year. And I've heard him say it like once or twice before. It's a Bidenism. But like, what does it mean? I'm so glad you did this because I've like, I saw your story. You wrote a story about this and now it's all I can think about. And I've started like, like today, I've had four different moments where I've just used it randomly, where I'm just like, it kind of can mean anything you want it to, depending on which word you emphasize. It truly could. Best of luck in your senior year.

In yours. So I went back into the archives of Biden, and he has been using it at least since the 1990s. And he uses it in a couple of different ways. One way is somebody telling him lots of luck in your senior year. And other times he's like telling somebody else lots of luck in your senior year. So my favorite instance of this is a Senate floor speech where he is talking about meeting Slobodan Milosevic, the Serbian, we'll call him a war criminal. He asked me what I thought of him. I told him then I thought he was a damn war criminal

and should be tried as such. He looked at me like I said, lots of luck in your senior year. Did not phase him a bit. What I love about this story also is that I've now gotten a lot of feedback from listeners and people who read the story on the internet. And there are a lot of people from listeners and, you know, people who read the story on the Internet. And there are a lot of people who have said, oh, my God, how did you not get this? what his intention was in that moment when he said it, but the words that he used, it's hard to like fully explain what that saying means. But sometimes I wonder if it's like a generational thing, because my dad

and Joe Biden are like roughly the same age and both from Pennsylvania. And my dad also says just lots of weird different sayings. And I wonder if like some of this stuff is just iterations of stuff that when they grew up that were things that they said that you can kind of use in any, any situation. Do we, but he goes back to this coach, right? Who he says said it to him. Like my coach used to say. Right, exactly. Not to be like the cynical, like, do we know the coach definitely exists? Like, do we know who the coach is? Which coach it was? Has any coach stood up and been like, yeah, that's my saying. I know where Joe got it. I will have you know, I reached out to the White

House to ask which coach said it. And they did not get back to me with an answer on that. I did also speak to someone the president went to high school with who played baseball with him, but Biden has said it was his football coach. So anyway, that guy thinks he picked it up in college or just made it up, but whatever it is. Or yeah, who knows what team, Mary? He probably played on a number of teams. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. I'm just saying I would love to hear from the coach. If the coach wanted to come forward and say it was his thing, I'd be very interested in reading that profile. It's just an expression. Miles, what can't you let go of? What I can't

let go of is I feel like it was pretty obvious what I was going to come here with. LeBron James. You know, I mean, I feel like I'm NPR politics resident basketball fan. And this was a huge moment. It was also State of the Union night. Yeah. I was at the Capitol and got to watch it. It was just a very cool moment where I was Ubering home from the Capitol watching the LeBron James thing on my phone. So it was like a really special Tuesday night and I really enjoyed it for LeBron as somebody who's like grown up. Are you a LeBron super fan or are you just a super fan of basketball?

I am. I am. Honestly, LeBron and I've never been a fan of his individual teams as much as him. He was just became great right at the same time that I started learning to love basketball. You're going to say right at the time, I also became great. Oh, yeah. So I definitely am kind of a LeBron super fan. But the secondary part of this that I think is really fun about this story is, so everyone was kind of looking at all the different

footage. There was like 8 million cameras in the stadium watching LeBron shoot the shot that gave him the scoring record. And one of the angles, which Shea Serrano, who's one of my favorite basketball and hip-hop writers, he pointed this out. One of the angles from the back of the stadium, you see LeBron pulling up to shoot. Everyone in the stadium is so excited for this shot. Everyone knows he's going to shoot it. And then there's a guy on the Lakers, on LeBron's team, named Thomas Bryant, who I'm sure you guys have maybe never heard of, potentially. Never heard of him. Never heard of him, right?

He's in the background of the shot with his hand up in the classic pass it to me. He's like looking for LeBron to pass him the ball at this key moment. And it's like, I just respect the heck out of Thomas Bryant. Read the room, Thomas Bryant. LeBron was probably thinking, lots of luck in your senior year, buddy. I am not passing you that ball. And he didn't, and then went through the hoop. And I'm sure Thomas is very excited, though I will say, last part of that story, Thomas Bryant was traded this week after that game from the Lakers.

Well, the Lakers also lost that game. They did. They did. But that will be like Thomas Bryant's final moment as the Los Angeles Lakers, like waving, pick me, pick me. Yeah, exactly. Sue, what can't you let go of? The thing I can't let go of is this weekend, Super Bowl, the Eagles are in the Super Bowl. And as longtime listeners of the podcast would know, I am originally from Philadelphia and nothing brings out my Philly more than a Philadelphia sports team in the Super Bowl. And I just, I'm living my best

Philly life right now. I already have ordered tasty cakes and soft pretzels, are sitting in my house. I have my no one likes us, we don't care shirt. But part of what I can't let go of it is like how Philly is also preparing for the Super Bowl. There's been like some hilarious stories out of the city where one was a jury duty last week, a judge in the jury duty system. When they call roll, you normally have to say here or present. But he also said at the front that he would accept go birds as an acceptable roll call. So, of course, everyone in Philly jury duty is responding. Go birds, go birds during jury duty.

Pennsylvania schools have already announced a two-hour delay on Monday morning to allow the season to cover. I also come from, you know, I come from a Philly maniacal sports family, so it's like really my brother's text chain, and everyone's wearing matching shirts and, like, just having all of the fun and excitement around it. And I'm just super excited. Go Birds is what I'm saying.

You're not in dread mode? No, I think it's super fun. I think it's so fun. And the last time the Eagles won the Super Bowl five years ago, I met a couple of my brothers up in Philly for the Super Bowl parade. I remember that. I do it again. Brave the cold. It was a ridiculous experience. If you are familiar at all of how Philadelphia sports fans celebrate, it's not that much different than how they riot. Well, that's what I was going to say. I feel like this is a classic Philly sports fan to be like, I'm just really excited to be here.

Can't wait to watch the game. But then if they lose, I guarantee you multiple NPR trash cans will be on fire and it will be because Sue Davis went on a rampage. Allegedly. Allegedly. Yeah, I thought you said, we're going to say when you said

that they were preparing for it, that they were just like greasing all the left. They're probably doing that as well. They're doing that as well. But I'm excited for the game. And I'm excited to maybe let my kids push bedtime a little bit. It's a good reason to indoctrinate them into Philly sportsdom. Nice.

Well, go birds, I guess. Go birds. Go birds. I guess that's the only right answer in this room right now. Yeah, I don't feel comfortable saying anything else. Go birds. And that is a wrap for today. Our executive producer is Mathani Mathuri.

Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our producers are Elena Moore and Casey Murrell. Our research and fact-checking comes from intern Devin Speak. Thanks to Krishna Dev Kalimer, Brandon Carter, and Lexi Schipittel. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Miles Parks. I cover voting.

And I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. And thank you Susan Davis. I cover politics. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.