The NPR Politics Podcast - Weekly Roundup: Border Crossings Have Dramatically Declined

Episode Date: May 24, 2024

Trump's trial enters its final stage next week as lawyers make their closing arguments and the case is expected to head to the jury. And immigration remains a top campaign issue after a record-high level of migrants crossing the U.S. southern border this winter gave way to an atypically quiet spring.This episode: White House correspondent Deepa Shivaram, political reporter Ximena Bustillo, senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro, immigration correspondent Sergio Martínez-Beltrán, and congressional correspondent Claudia Grisales.This podcast was produced by Jeongyoon Han, Casey Morell and Kelli Wessinger. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Listen to every episode of the NPR Politics Podcast sponsor-free, unlock access to bonus episodes with more from the NPR Politics team, and support public media when you sign up for The NPR Politics Podcast+ at plus.npr.org/politics.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Autograph Collection Hotels, with over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of hotel brands. Find the unforgettable at AutographCollection.com. This is Andrew. And Nash. We're at Jacob and Laura's wedding at Bethany Beach, sitting right across from NPR host Domenico. While he's rocking a fedora.

This podcast was recorded at... 12.09 p.m. on Friday, May 24th, 2024. Things may have changed by the time you hear this, like Jacob and Laura are about to get married. Enjoy the show. That was awesome. They were so nice. They came up to me like super politics podcast fans. So shout out to Andrew and

Nasher. It was a great time. And congratulations to Jacob and Laura, two ex-NPRs. That is so cool. We obviously now need to see the fedora picture. Yeah, spotted in a fedora. As they would say in the 90s, I'm pretty sure we look pretty fly. That's a good way to kick off this Friday pod. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Deepa Shivaram. I cover the White House. I'm Jimena Bustillo and I cover politics.

And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent. Let's begin our roundup today with the latest in Donald Trump's criminal trial in New York. To sum up pretty briefly, this trial is related to the payments allegedly authorized by Donald Trump to keep potentially damaging stories out of the press ahead of the 2016 presidential election. And this week in court was a short week. Ximena, you've been on the ground covering this. Who did we hear from? So this week we heard the defense's case, so Donald Trump's case. We wrapped up with Michael Cohen at the very start. And then we got to hear from one paralegal who testified to some phone records.

And he was pretty on and then off. And then we spent some time with Robert Costello. Robert Costello might be a familiar name. He was once Rudy Giuliani, former New York mayor's lawyer, and was pretty involved in Trump's space. And he was mainly up on the stand to testify against Michael Cohen as a character and talk about how he might not be that reliable of a witness. Yeah. And I mean, look, this was a kind of stop the presses moment with Bob Costello being on the stand. It seemed like he was performing for Donald Trump in many ways. This is somebody who, he's a lawyer, but he's on the

stand. And he's literally muttering under his breath when the judge is making rulings. He says, geez, the judge at one point cleared the courtroom because Costello, he felt was being so disrespectful and needed to kind of put him back in line, asked him at one point, are you staring me down? And again, I think that a lot of this was performative. And for the fact that we had been talking the week before about Michael Cohen and his testimony and some of the problems with his testimony, you know, you don't have a lot of great actors on either side in this. And those moments were really, really tense, particularly when all of the press corps got shoved out of the courtroom. But Trump and his guests got to remain in the courtroom.

That was a little bit of a controversial moment and definitely the most heated that we have seen New York Judge Juan Rashan in this entire trial. One thing I did want to ask about is about Donald Trump himself. I mean, he had the right to testify and he said that he wanted to, but he hasn't yet. Jimena, why is that? What's going on there? So that had been up in the air for a while. At the very start of the trial, he had told reporters, I'm going to be testifying, like I'm going to speak. And we've been asking him for weeks, do you still plan to, do you still plan to? He never answered that question again. And then ultimately just never took the stand.

The defense rested their case. That means no more witnesses. We expect closing arguments on Tuesday. So opportunity. Train has kind of left the station for that. That being said, it was, you know, including past testimony on the stand that he has done over the past six months for civil trials here. But they won the right to open that can of worms and ask him about it. And so it really would not have served him to be open to all that line of questioning

when potentially being up on the stand against a jury. That being said, I mean, he can do what he wants as the defendant, and he could have testified if he wanted to. There was nothing preventing him from doing so. And we should say this had nothing to do with the gag order. You know, Trump likes to blame the gag order for seemingly everything under the sun. But, you know, he's able to criticize the judge still. And, of course, he's able to take the stand. The gag order is intended to protect staff and to protect jurors. Trump himself clearly was full of a lot of bluster, wanting to come out and sort of blame everything as a political trial. And we're going to see next week if the jury bought what the prosecution was selling and if they're going to convict or if it's hung or whichever direction it goes.

It's certainly going to be a consequential moment because we've never seen this before. Yeah. I mean, let's get into next week. I know, Jimena, you obviously don't have a crystal ball here, but what are we looking at? I mean, as we seemingly barrel towards the end of this. Expected to near the end is just kind of the way I can describe it. We will likely get closing statements, also known as summations, on Tuesday. Those are expected to take most of the day, which means that Wednesday is when Marshawn will read the charges to the jury,

give them their jury instructions, and they could begin deliberating Wednesday. That's why we've had such a big long break between Tuesday and now is Marshawn really didn't want to give that much time with the jury to go home between closing arguments and them actually talking about what they're going to decide. And then who's to say, you know, we could get a verdict or a decision on Wednesday. We could get one Friday. We could get one the week after. I mean, there really is no telling what this group of 12 New Yorkers is going to do and how they're going to do it. And it's not the end of this story or this case, because Trump is obviously going to appeal. So anybody who, you know, is looking for consequences for Trump, if he's convicted of this, it's going to take quite some time,

and he can't pardon himself if he were to win the presidency because this is a statewide case. But we have to really underscore, Donald Trump is probably not going to jail. It's almost 100% certainty that he's not going to jail based on this case. And since the other cases have essentially been indefinitely delayed, it seems, and we're not likely to get another trial, this is probably the only one. So not exactly tying this up in a clean bow, as some people might have been waiting for. That is very important to point out. And of course, we should point out that as all of this is happening, Donald Trump continues to campaign.

He was just holding a rally in the Bronx this week. So still a lot going on on the campaign side of things as well. He's in New Jersey. He's in New York. You know, these are not places where are really the, you know, half dozen or more battleground states. And, you know, this trial, you would have thought would have meant that Trump would have made some more effort to do that kind of thing and campaigning in places like, you know, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania and Nevada and Arizona and all of the rest. But he really hasn't done very much of it.

And the clock is ticking on the campaign here. Yeah, absolutely. All right. We'll leave it there. Domenico, thank you, as always, for joining us. You got it. And Ximena, take a quick breather. We are going to get back to you for Can't Let It Go.

Talk soon. All right. A quick break. And when we get back, there's been a decline in the number of people attempting to enter the U.S. via the southern border. We'll get into what's going on. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies. Send, spend, or receive money internationally. And always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees.

Download the WISE app today, Claudia Casales. Hello. Hey there. And NPR immigration correspondent, Sergio Martinez Beltran. Not your first time on the pod, but the first time you'll be working with us as an immigration reporter for NPR HQ. Welcome. Hey, I'm super excited. Very exciting. We're so excited to have you. So you've got a story out looking at the decline in people crossing the U.S. southern border.

These, of course, are folks who are seeking asylum and are encountering or presenting themselves to Customs and Border Protection agents. I'm curious, I mean, what kind of numbers are we talking about here? How steep is the decline? And what were the levels before? Yeah, I mean, that's what everybody's talking nowadays when, you know, when you cover immigration is that there has been a decline. The latest data released by CBP shows that last month there were nearly 129,000 apprehensions and expulsions at the southern border, which is a 6% decrease from March.

And, you know, when you think about it, this number is quite interesting, especially when you take into consideration the fact that the month of December, there was a record high. The other thing here that's interesting about these numbers is that they are defying traditional trends. Migration tends to increase in the spring. But again, we have seen a decline. So that's something that lots of observers are intrigued by. Okay. And what do you think is behind this?

Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of things playing a role here, right? If you ask the state of Texas, where I'm right now, state officials would say it's their enforcement at the border through Operation Lone Star. Remember, the state deployed state national guardsmen to the border to patrol those areas. It also implemented barriers on the Rio Grande. So they'd say, you know, it's the enforcement that the state has been doing that has deterred people from crossing. But again, it's more complex than that. Mexico has played such a big role here. They have been enforcing their immigration laws. That country has deployed its National Guard

to patrol its southern border with Guatemala and its northern border with the U.S. The country has also been sending Venezuelan migrants back to Venezuela as part of an agreement with that government. So Mexico has been doing a lot. However, I think something that's important to keep in mind is that observers say there is sort of a bottleneck in Mexico right now, which means that many migrants are just stuck in the country.

And so those numbers are not reflected yet at the U.S. southern border, and they are expecting that we might see higher numbers later on. It might not be a surge because a lot of people are crossing, but mostly because they have been stuck there because they don't have the means to cross yet. It's interesting that Sergio is teasing out kind of these nuances when it comes to the border, how these levels can decline. But if you reach out to a lot of voters out there nationally, they may not know that. And this is the subject of a political messaging war between Republicans and Democrats right now. Republicans don't want that kind of message out there talking about declines.

They want the word crisis, crisis, crisis out there, while Democrats are trying to push back and say, hey, we're working on this. And so these are the kind of details that kind of get lost in the kind of political warfare we're seeing between the two parties right now. And Claudia, I mean, as we're talking about this issue, right, we're going to keep talking about immigration. We're going to keep talking about the border.

We have been for months now, but part of the reason it remains so relevant is because it's such a big political issue, especially in this election. It is one where like President Biden gets the weakest poll numbers is on his handling of immigration and the border. It keeps coming up on the campaign trail. And I kind of want to ask you, I mean, as you've traveled and cover Congress and all these elections around the country, I mean, Democrats have typically

shied away from this issue, but we're sort of seeing a little bit of a shift in approach, right? And how they're talking about it and their willingness to even talk about it in the first place, right? Right, exactly. So this is something I did hear about when I traveled along the Texas border talking to politicians and more about this election year and how the border issue is playing into it. And it was just a constant cry I heard from Democrats who have been dealing with this for years on the border, is that they need to see their party at large lean into this issue. And when I say lean in, what I mean by that is they point to examples like Tom Suozzi.

This is the new Democrat in Congress, in the House, representing New York's third congressional district. He won a special election. And many say the reason he did is he ran on a tough on immigration campaign. And so this is what Democrats along the border are telling the rest of the party to do is to really push these tougher stances on immigration and not let Republicans run away with this message. And we also saw Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer also push this issue this past week. He brought a bill that failed earlier this year. It was once a bipartisan border bill that had sweeping reforms to immigration.

And it was probably one of the toughest pieces of legislation Democrats say they have ever negotiated out. We heard Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, for example, say this was the best deal they would ever get, even if Republicans controlled the White House and both chambers of Congress. And so Schumer put this bill, even though it failed earlier this year, because Republicans changed their mind on it. They didn't like the deal in the end, especially after former President Trump said he was not going to go along with it. So they reversed course. But Schumer was determined to show where Democrats stand on this issue and draw a line on it

and illustrate where Republicans stand and say that Republicans don't want to help. And of course, Republicans rejected that notion and said this was politically motivated. No, of course. And you definitely see that rhetoric echoed from the president, right? President Biden himself saying really strong language on the border, obviously backing this bipartisan bill that failed and also using language, essentially saying that he would shut down the border if he had those tools in his toolbox. So it is really interesting to see that language and that rhetoric and that stance coming from Democrats who, like we've said, have often shied away

from even talking about the border in the first place. Schumer made pretty clear that the Senate, because we are moving closer into the election campaigning months of the year, that they're gonna focus a lot on these messaging bills. And this once upon a time bipartisan border legislation was one of those missions to illustrate where they all stand. But it's interesting, some of the original authors of the plan, Kyrsten Sinema, the independent from Arizona,

and James Lankford, the Republican from Oklahoma, both voted no this past week on the plan, because this was they said this was politically motivated by Democrats. I want to talk really quickly about something that is happening in Texas where you are, Sergio, the implementation of a law known as SB4. And other states are looking at similar laws, but I'm curious, what does it do? What is it proposing? And how is it shaping the landscape down there where you are? Right. So that law in Texas was approved last year, and it pretty much allows local and state police to arrest migrants they suspect are in their country without authorization. It also gives local judges the power to send the migrants back to Mexico, even if they are not Mexicans.

Now, the law is under federal review, but it's already having an impact in the border communities in Texas, right? There's a lot of fear of potential racial profiling. I've spent some time in Eagle Pass, Texas, and I've talked to folks from like an 85-year-old retired shoemaker to a 19-year-old community college student, and they have said to me that now they are thinking about the importance of having some sort of ID with them every time they leave their houses because they are they're scared that a state trooper or a Neagle Pass police officer would stop them and what's interesting right the dynamics at the border is that many of these residents they're used to interactions with the border patrol because the border patrol agents are their neighbors.

They go to the same school, so they know them. They know that they are, in a way, a little bit more understanding of what's happening. They are scared of these new interactions with state troopers who might not be from Eagle Pass or the border community. And now they're there to enforce potentially this measure. So there's a lot of fear with that. The one thing, Deepa, that I think it's also interesting about this law is that it is shaping the politics in other states. Other places have been inspired by SB4

and they have passed their own versions that mirror the law. I'm thinking of Oklahoma. I'm thinking of Iowa who passed similar laws. And the federal government is suing both of those states over the measures, just like they're doing with Texas. And And, you know, the federal government is suing both of those states over the measures, just like they're doing with Texas. And then, of course, Arizona, the state legislature there is advancing a ballot proposal that

would allow voters to decide whether Arizona should make it a state crime for immigrants to enter the state illegally. Again, very similar to what Texas has done. But it's going to be interesting what happens or if what would happen is what has happened in the past that maybe some aspects of the law could be implemented and others would be struck down. Very interesting reporting. Thank you so much for bringing it to the podcast. Sergio Martinez Beltran, we'll talk to you soon. Thank you. We're going to take another quick break and then it's time for Can't Let It Go. That's the part of the show where we talk

about the things that we just cannot stop thinking about, politics or otherwise. Jimena, welcome back. And Claudia, I'm going to kick it off to you, our Taylor Swift correspondent. Yes. Thank you so much. I am so grateful to revisit this issue. I may have been yelling at some people that I must talk about this again. It's been too long. Last time was when I went to her heiress tour concert in Los Angeles. This was her last US date last year. And then now my mind is blown. My swiftiness is in a higher gear because she's kicked off this European leg. And there's so many incredible things about this new Taylor Swift chapter. As we know, she dropped this new album, The Tortured Poets Department.

And so this actually redid the entire set list for the Eras Tour. There's a whole new era for TTPD. So it's been glorious. Now that she's in Europe, this is an exciting year. We're also watching Travis Kelsey and all his moves closely, because it's possible we could have exciting news for them. I did not like him initially. I'm a convert. I want to update that on my last. Can't let it go. And I could go on for hours. And I'm sorry I went on so long. I can't let go about how Claudia can't let go. I could talk about this for hours. So deep. What can you not let go of? Okay. I'm going to take this in a little bit of a different direction here because here at NPR,

we enjoy beer and there is a thing I cannot let go of shared by our colleague Kelsey Snell. Oh my God. I can't. Which is that there is a place in Germany that is called the Reuse Brew. And they are using wastewater and like retreating the wastewater and making beer out of it. I will say the beer is not available for sale yet.

So we can't buy it. But I do want to make a pitch that I think that when it does become available for purchase, it is newsworthy and relevant that we cover that story. Maybe we need to travel there to do a testing. If Taylor Swift is performing in Germany and the beer is for sale, do we pitch? Yes. I think we make that happen. Done and done and done. All right, Ximena, let's toss over to you. What can you not let go of this week?

I can't let go of how I work out of our NPR New York Bureau all the time. And I get immense joy from when my fellow politics colleagues like all of you happen to also be in New York. And this week, I got the treat of two people, Franco Ordonez and Ryan Lucas were both up here for their own respective stories. And it was just very lovely to work alongside colleagues. We have a very nice office. And we should be clear, Ximena, you are a very good marketing specialist for New York Missions. You had posted an ad to all of us saying, come on up, let me know, I'll hook you up. So it sounded so appealing. I was like, I need to come up with some reasons. You should.

Maybe New York, then Germany. That's how we do it. Direct flight to Berlin. A couple international airports here. Can't let it go. On the scene, on the ground, live coverage, multiple platforms. I see it

now, wall to wall. It would be fab. We're going to leave it there for today. Our executive producer is Mathoni Maturi. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our producers are Jung Yoon Han, Casey Morrell, and Kelly Wessinger. Special thanks to Krishnadev Kalamer and Megan Pratz. I'm Deepa Shivaram.

I cover the White House. I'm Claudia Grisales. I cover Congress. And I'm Ximena Bustiona. I cover politics. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast. Thank you.