The NPR Politics Podcast - Weekly Roundup: Democracy and the Courts

Episode Date: May 31, 2024

Donald Trump, convicted yesterday of 34 felonies, held an event this morning where he continued his attacks on the judge who oversaw his case and the legal system as a whole. His allegations of a "rigged" process and politically-motivated judiciary have been echoed by Republican lawmakers of all stripes, in a major erosion of democratic norms.And Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito is refusing to recuse himself from any cases after New York Times reporting revealed that flags associated with election denial and the Christian nationalist movement flew outside of his residences.This episode: White House correspondent Deepa Shivaram, political reporter Ximena Bustillo, senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro, and national justice correspondent Carrie Johnson.The podcast is produced by Jeongyoon Han, Casey Morell and Kelli Wessinger. Our intern is Bria Suggs. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi. Listen to every episode of the NPR Politics Podcast sponsor-free, unlock access to bonus episodes with more from the NPR Politics team, and support public media when you sign up for The NPR Politics Podcast+ at plus.npr.org/politics.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Autograph Collection Hotels, with over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of hotel brands. Find the unforgettable at AutographCollection.com. Hi, this is Rich. This is Siri. This is Mark. And we're in Denver City Park celebrating our fourth wedding

anniversary in the same cluster of trees where we got married at the beginning of the pandemic. This podcast was recorded at 11 50 a.m. on Friday, May 31st, 2024. Things may have changed by the time you hear it. Enjoy the show. Enjoy the show. Enjoy the show. That was so cute. I actually feel calmer, and I didn't think that that was possible after this week, so thank you for that. That was lovely, yes. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Deepa Shivaram. I cover the White House. I'm Ximena Bustillo, and I cover politics.

And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent. Today on The Roundup, how resilient are our democratic institutions? Big question, but let's start here. Donald Trump is now a convicted felon and spent this morning continuing his attacks on the judicial system. So we're going to be appealing this scam. We're going to be appealing it on many different things. He wouldn't allow us to have witnesses. He wouldn't allow us to talk. He wouldn't allow us to have witnesses. He wouldn't allow us to talk.

He wouldn't allow us to do anything. The judge was a tyrant. Okay there. Ximena, you are in New York, outside Trump Tower, I believe, where Trump gave his remarks. What was the scene like this morning? So this morning, it all started pretty calm. And there weren't a lot of people gathered outside yet.

Obviously, that's not the case right now. You can probably hear a lot of talking, people walking around. Different crowds have gathered outside of Trump Tower, where Trump gave his speech inside to a crew of TV reporters, print reporters, us, of course. Several reporters were gathered. And he reiterated a lot of the same claims that he has been telling us outside the courtroom down in downtown Manhattan, which is that he believes that the judge is biased. He believes that this is a political tool against him, all without evidence, of course. And, you know, he continues to rail against the entire process, the entire judicial system. And calling the judge a tyrant, like we

just heard in his remarks. Domenico, I mean, these attacks against the judicial system, the judge, as we heard Trump say, they've kind of been like par for the course for a lot of Republicans at this point. I mean, we've heard rhetoric like this from House Speaker Mike Johnson, Republican Senator Josh Hawley, Representative Matt Gaetz, basically saying that this trial, the judicial system overall is a sham. Right. I mean, Josh Hawley was on Fox this morning saying that this was an assault on the Constitution. I mean, it's kind of worth noting how common now it is to kind of make these refrains. Yeah, it's not surprising, but still kind of shocking, honestly. I mean, being able to consistently and quickly, immediately move to saying that this was a scam. You know, you have the Speaker of the House saying it was a shameful day in America. Trump's allies and the cadre of Republican

officials who are trying out to be VP sort of unofficially, all saying the same thing, speaking from the same playbook. And, you know, you wind up having this hyper partisanship, mostly because of this conservative insulation that we're seeing where they have an entire media echo chamber that's telling them this is all made up. This is just politics and stick to the playbook and stay on the team. And then on the other side of the equation here, I mean, this isn't exactly something that the Biden White House or a lot of Democrats are sort of trying to fill the void with, right? Like you don't really see a lot of strong rhetoric coming out saying the opposite necessarily. And that has been interesting to watch. Yeah. You know, nothing changes the fact that a jury of Trump's peers, 12 people unanimously convicted him. And no matter what probably happens in this election, there isn't probably enough time

for a conviction, even if it's overturned, before Trump winds up being on the ballot in November, and he has convicted felon as part of his unofficial title. And, you know, that's definitely something Trump did not want, had been prepping for. That's why you see the sort of outrage on the right the way it is, because they know that this is a serious threat to him. On the other side, when you have President Biden, who has said basically nothing about this at this point, even his campaign has said, you know, what's really important here is voting in November, which is something, by the way, Trump agrees with, saying that the real verdict is in November. But I'm curious to see how he winds up using this or not in some of these big tentpole

events that we have coming up the rest of this year. Yeah. And it's worth pointing out that there is a sense from this White House that like this is not a process that they're involved in, right? Like they are being accused of making a political, that it's a political witch hunt. Of course, Biden has nothing to do with the decisions being made in that New York court, but it is notable. I think that that hasn't really been their tendency to sort of jump back in and sort of use different rhetoric to counter it. Jimena, I mean, how much of this is going to be part of the campaign message for Trump and for Biden? I mean, when it comes to advertising, messaging, fundraising, I mean, how is this factoring in so far?

Well, for Trump, it already is a part of the messaging, and it has been for a while. We have heard him throughout several campaign rallies and campaign stops talk about what he perceives to be this great injustice happening out in New York in this liberal city that is filled with all this crime, allegedly. conviction came down that his website is auto directing to a fundraising website where he is labeling himself a political prisoner and is asking people to donate to help him out. The Trump campaign is already boasting having raised millions of dollars through this website overnight. However, it is important to include the caveat that those numbers, that total, cannot be fully verified until we get the latest FEC filings. You know, I think what's interesting here when it comes to President Biden is the title president, right? He's really having to walk these two worlds because he's both president and to show that he is going to be weighing in on this, to talk about Trump as a convicted felon, to talk about all of the legal woes that Trump has, because he hasn't wanted to show himself to at all be influencing the Justice Department or to be influencing state prosecutors. But he's really going to have to make a decision here. We've only got five months to go.

Yeah, I will say one thing that will be really interesting to see is if he talks about it a little more openly in fundraising, where he doesn't have the cameras on. You know, it's a different sort of scene. So we'll be watching for that. And we have some big events coming up that are going to show us whether or not and how each of them frames this because June 27, less than a month from now, we have the first debate that they agreed to, then you have both conventions over the summer, then finally, the September 10 debate. So those are really going to be some big tentpole events to watch. What does this really change at the end of the day? Like the folks, Domenico, who maybe were seeing coverage of this or knowing that Donald Trump was facing some kind of verdict,

they maybe already thought that he was guilty or there are folks on their side who already thought, you know, he was innocent and then this was a political scheme. So really with this decision coming out, I mean, does this actually change anyone's minds at the end of the day? Yeah, it's tough. We're going to have to see. I mean, I think this is a moment in American politics, a moment in American history. I think there were a lot of people who weren't paying that close attention to this trial, who are going to be starting to tune in to figure out what was Trump convicted of. And then they're going to go to their favorite news outlet for that. And if they're Republican-leaning independent, for example, and they go to Fox News or conservative media, you know, Trump did nothing wrong and they're going to be more on board.

If they're going to maybe more mainstream outlets, they might have a different take on this. But already, before going into this, the latest NPR-PBS NewsHour Marist poll that came out this week found that only 17% of people said that they would be less likely to vote for Trump if he was found guilty. Some of those are partisans. It also less likely doesn't necessarily mean that's what they're going to do at the end of the day. I'm really looking at some of these voter groups that Biden is struggling with, like younger voters, for example. They were among the highest to say that they could have their mind changed. One in five said that they would be less likely to vote for Trump if he was found guilty. One in five also said that they'd be more likely to vote for Trump if he was found not guilty. And only 54% of them said that they

definitely have their minds made up. So can Biden use this to try to bring over some of the groups that he's been struggling with, I think is an important thing to watch over the next few months. Yeah, we'll have to keep an eye on that. All right, we're going to take a quick break. Jimena, great work on covering this trial. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. And when we get back, investigative reporting exposes a lot more questions on behavior by Supreme Court justices. Hello again. So after we taped this, we did get to hear from President Biden directly. Before making remarks about Israel's war in Gaza,

he made a very brief statement about the verdict in New York. After careful deliberation, the jury reached a unanimous verdict. They found Donald Trump guilty on all 34 felony counts. Now he'll be given the opportunity, as he should, to appeal that decision just like everyone else has that opportunity. That's how the American system of justice works. And it's reckless. It's dangerous.

It's irresponsible for anyone to say this was rigged just because they don't like the verdict. Biden didn't take any questions. All right, we'll be back in a moment. This message comes from WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies. Send, spend, or receive money internationally and always get the real-time mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Download the W Wise app today or visit wise.com. T's and C's apply. This message comes from NPR sponsor, the NPR Wine Club, a place to explore the exciting world of wine, including wines inspired by popular NPR shows like Weekend

Edition Cabernet. Whether buying a few bottles or joining the club, all purchases help support NPR programming and fund quality reporting developed to connect people to their communities and the world they live in. More at nprwineclub.org slash podcast. Must be 21 or older to purchase. And we're back with Keri Johnson. Hey, Keri. Hey there. Okay, so the theme for today's roundup is the way public figures can and can't be held accountable, right? And just to lay out what's happening here, the New York Times reported that two flags, one associated with Trump's election denial movement and another associated with the Christian nationalist movement,

were flown outside of homes connected to Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito. Alito says that the election denial flag, which is basically the American flag flown upside down, was raised up by his wife in response to a dispute with neighbors and isn't related to the Stop the Steal movement. Carrie, given the context of all this, though about whether Justice Alito should recuse himself, disqualify himself from hearing or deciding at this point two cases related to January 6, 2021. One involving former President Trump and whether he enjoys some form of immunity for his actions on and around that day. And a second case involving a January 6 rioter who argues the Justice Department has misused a statute against him. Depending on how the Supreme Court rules in that case, it could imperil convictions of hundreds of other rioters on that day. Yeah. And I mean, Alito is refusing to recuse himself from any cases over this. And Democrats have responded, right? We did see some movement about that in the Senate.

What was going on there? Yeah, several senators, including Dick Durbin, Democrat from Illinois, chairman of the Judiciary Committee, and Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island, had actually written John Roberts, the chief justice of the United States, asking about all of these issues. And this week, Justice Alito responded, not the Chief Justice. Justice Alito sent a letter saying he's not going to step aside from deciding these cases. He said he had nothing whatsoever to do with the flying of the upside down flag. He said his wife makes her own decisions and he respects her right to do that. He also said, my wife is fond of flying flags. I am not. She was solely responsible. He

says that nothing in this whole controversy implicates him having to disqualify himself. And so he's just not going to do it. And this is just pretty unusual, all of this to begin with. But like for a Supreme Court justice to kind of go out on his own, send this letter like this is not something we normally deal with. It is not something that normally happens, although I will point out that Justice Alito in the past has reached out to reporters at Fox News and has penned op eds in The Wall Street Journal amidst criticism of him by investigative outlets like ProPublica and others. So he does not exercise his right to remain silent in the face of these controversies. He seems to want to make his own case, whether it's persuaded people who disagree with him. Hard to say at this point. You know, the thing is, this is D.C.,

right? Everyone's spouses have jobs. Sometimes they're high profile jobs. Sometimes those lives intersect. This is a flag at your home, right? And you're saying that I couldn't really tell her to take it down. She's half homeowner. So, you know, what can I do really shrug emoji? I mean, I know that conservatives are buying this, but it's hard for me to believe that a lot of people, you know, are saying that that makes a lot of sense to them. You know, one thing that's interesting about this whole debate is that a law professor, Steve Vladek, formerly of the University of Texas, about to join Georgetown, has argued that we're thinking about it all wrong, that we shouldn't be talking about recusal here.

We should be talking about good behavior and how things look to reasonable people and how justices respond to public controversy is clearly in the heartland of how we should evaluate them. And by that standard, he seems to argue that Justice Alito is not doing a very good job and that there are plenty of reasons to question why he's hearing these cases and whether he's truly impartial about them. The weird thing, I guess, about these interesting times that we live in where we are having these conversations, I mean, there's not exactly like a system to necessarily hold these justices accountable or maybe there is and it's not really been used before. Like, how do we deal with this? You know, the Supreme Court has really resisted any kind of oversight from Congress or anyone else. In fact,

Chief Justice John Roberts has been out there saying, including earlier this week, that these are matters of judicial independence and separation of powers. He refused to even meet with Democratic lawmakers because he basically told them it would be a really bad look. And so the justices have adopted some kind of ethics code for themselves, but there's no enforcement mechanism. And it's going to be very, very hard for Democrats in Congress or even litigants who have cases before the Supreme Court to make these justices do anything they do not want to do, because they're in charge of whether they want to recuse or not individually. You know, the Supreme Court is like the last stop in American democracy in a lot of ways, right? They settle the disagreements on the biggest issues that we have in this country. And public perception is really, really important. Trust in the Supreme Court is really important. And that's been on the decline in recent years, not just since the Dobbs ruling that overturned Roe, but before that, after Ruth Bader Ginsburg died and Amy Coney Barrett was appointed to take her place and Democrats were upset because Mitch McConnell, Republican leader, had stopped Merrick Garland from being appointed that when Barack Obama tried to appoint him.

So this goes back a ways even before that, because Republicans will say that this goes back to the 80s and appointments that Democrats blocked back then. So there's been a lot of, you know, really partisan feelings on this, but it hadn't bled over necessarily into the public. The public had trusted the Supreme Court, the FBI, a lot of other pillar institutions in a democracy. And now it has bled over into the public where they're sort of, you know, looking at the Supreme Court in a way like it's another political branch. Well, yeah. And because it is now all politicized, folks are thinking of the Supreme Court as a political entity, which it never was supposed to be a political entity in theory. It's kind of coming up on the campaign trail a little bit. Domenico, how is that sort of factoring in for both Biden and Trump?

Well, I mean, you know, I mean, I go when I think about the campaign trail and I think about judges, I often tell people that, you know, people vote on things like the economy, which a president has very little control over, and they don't vote on things like judges and foreign policy, which a president has much more control over. It's hard to argue that there wouldn't be a very different Supreme Court today had Hillary Clinton won. And certainly we saw in the 2020 election, Democrats saying they wanted to pack the Supreme Court. They wanted to expand the court to be able to add justices so that they could water down the strength of conservatives on the court. It is a huge issue and it should probably be a voting issue. You know, Deepa, President Biden famously was in charge of the Senate Judiciary Committee for many years.

Some people on the left, to the left of Biden for sure, have been kind of critical of the White House and Biden himself for not taking on the Supreme Court more often. What's coming out of the White House these days? It's pretty silent overall. This is not something, especially with this whole upside down flag Alito situation. You know, this is not a White House that really wants to weigh in. They sort of like to keep those boundaries in place, if you will. But I will say one place where like Biden and Harris, too, they don't hesitate to bring up the Supreme Court is on reproductive rights. Like they talk about it in regards to dobs all the time.

And that, I feel like, is their campaign kind of connector with voters where they say you're angry about, you know, all these abortion restrictions coming up all over the country. Well, look who put those justices on the court. This is Donald Trump. So that's their kind of connector to bring the court back into the picture. But you're right. We don't really see Biden weighing in. To my mind, this issue is really underappreciated on the campaign trail. You know, Justice Alito is 74.

Justice Clarence Thomas is 75 years old. Justice Sonia Sotomayor is 69 years old. The next president of the United States could have the opportunity, depending on the decisions of these justices and their health, to appoint two or three more justices. And that would be that would be an enormously consequential move for either party. I'm really shocked that hasn't come up more in this campaign season so far. But again, we still have five months to go. All right. We're going to leave it there. And when we get back, it's time for Can't Let It Go. And we're back. And now it's time for Can't Let It Go. That's the part of the round here

where he had to decide how to spell some of these words, which I would just, you know, pull myself off the stage. Ramuner. R-A-M-U-N-E-U-R. Aposaiapesis. A-P-O-S-I-O-P-E-S-I-S. Apsail. A-B-S-E-I-L.

Opalp. Opalp. Huh? Wait, is this like a times round? Yeah, I guess so. Lightning round. I didn't know they do lightning round in this. Why am I sweating?

This is terrifying. It's very terrifying. My God, it's like a bad dream. You know, words that aren't words. That's actually crazy. Okay, wait. So do you have the definition of what abseil means? Luckily.

Oh, that's his winning word. Abseil was the winning word. So I want you guys to try to spell it. What do you think? He already did. I think he said there was an E in there, but how did I get in there? Oh, that's his winning word. Absale was the winning word. So I want you guys to try to spell it. What do you think? He already did. I think he said there was an E in there, but how did I get in there? Because it's not about sailing, apparently.

It's about descending. It's descent and mountaineering by means of a rope looped over a projection above. I have to tell you, I don't even think mountain climbers use absale. I'm going to absale now. I don't think so. Oh, and then there was a tiebreaker. That was the tiebreaker, I think. The lightning round was the tiebreaker.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Okay. Also, let's just take a beat and point out that this is a 12-year-old kid. I heard a story, I think, on NPR some years ago about how they, like like study the dictionary, read it over and over again. You got to know the etymology to make it go. Come on. That's true. Greek, German, French.

Well, congrats to Bruhat. That's pretty amazing. Carrie, take it away. My can't let it go is that alcohol is no longer going to be served in the stands of the French Open, the famous tennis tournament. After multiple episodes where players complained about unruly behavior, the worst to my mind was that a player complained that somebody in the stands spit out chewed gum at the player, which just no. Oh, that's unhinged. Disgusting. And then there were other complaints about loud comments and other stuff. So no more booze for you in the stands at this French Open tournament.

Dang it. That's the only reason I was trying to go to the French Open. But also, does this just mean people are, like, sneaking in little flasks as they enter? Like, I kind of love the potential for nonsense to happen. You're taking me back to college days, and I'm going to take the fifth. Deepa, what about you? Okay, so I have kind of a funny can't let it go, but I feel like it really works for today specifically because it is the last day of AAPI Heritage Month. And my thing that I can't let go of is that earlier this week, our lovely colleague Asma Khalid just came

up to me in our office and was just like, hey, do you want this mango from Pakistan? And obviously you would never say no to a question like that. And Asma had the incredible opportunity to obtain a lot of mangoes from Pakistan, which if you guys don't know, mangoes there are just, they hit different. They are made different. The fibers are different. It's sweeter. It's just better all around. And you can't find them here. So it is a genuine treat to have had just one tiny little

mango this week. Absolutely made my day. I have so many memories of like cutting mangoes in our kitchen with my family and like the way you kind of score the mango and eat it with a spoon and you suck on the seed and there's just like fibers in your teeth and juice running down your arms. It is just the epitome of summer to me and just such a fun way to like feel really connected with, you know, your culture and your homeland and your family and things like that. So all of that from like a tiny little fruit that I got today was very kind of her to share. And that is what I can't let go of. That sounds so amazing. But central question.

Did she share her source with you? Are you going to get your own secret? All I heard is that involved a guy with like a trunk full of mangoes potentially outside the airport. I don't know any details. Amazing. This mango fell off a truck. Yeah. Amazing. I need to do some digging, some potential investigative journalism to learn more. I will let you know. Or maybe I won't and I'll just keep them all for myself. Okay, two. All right, we're going to leave it there for today. Our executive producer is Mithoni Maturi.

Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our producers are Jung Yoon Han, Casey Murrell, and Kelly Wessinger. Special thanks to Kelsey Snell and Lexi Schipittel. I'm Deepa Shivaram. I cover the White House. I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent. And I'm Carrie Johnson. I cover the Justice Department. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast. Support for NPR and the following message come from the Kauffman Foundation, providing access to opportunities that help people achieve financial stability,

upward mobility, and economic prosperity, regardless of race, gender, or geography. Kauffman.org.