The NPR Politics Podcast - Weekly Roundup: Friday, November 15

Episode Date: November 15, 2019

Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch described a pressure campaign to oust her from Kyiv. President Trump tweeted negatively about her during her hearing; Rep. Adam Schiff called it "witness intimidation." Plus, two 2020 candidates throw their name into the ring. In this episode: White House correspondent Tamara Keith, political correspondent Asma Khalid, White House reporter Ayesha Rascoe, and senior editor & correspondent Domenico Montanaro. Connect:Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hey guys, before we get started, we have two live shows coming up. One is in Chicago on January 10th and the other one is at Drew University in Madison, New Jersey. That one's on January 22nd. We would love to see you there. To grab a ticket, just head over to nprpresents.org. Okay, here's the show. Hello, this is Casey, your friendly MRI technologist. The sound you hear behind me is my 1.5 Tesla magnet. I'm gearing up for a full day of taking care of the people in Bethany, Missouri. This podcast was recorded at 1.48 p.m. on Friday, November 15th. Things may have changed by the time you hear this. All right, here's the show.

Here, I thought she was doing laundry. What was that? There was like a shoe in there. That was an MRI machine. Oh, that was an MRI. Yeah. Okay, it said Tesla, so I was thinking it was a car. And then I was like, wait, what?

She's taking the car to give people MRIs? Nikola Tesla was an inspiration to many. Okay. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Ayesha I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House. I'm Aisha Roscoe. I also cover the White House.

And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent. All right, guys. Another day, another impeachment hearing. Today, it was Marie Yovanovitch, the U.S. ambassador to the Ukraine who was ousted by President Trump in May. She is, as we speak, still on Capitol Hill testifying in that impeachment inquiry. So, guys, I just want to talk through what stood out to us from what we've heard so far. You know, Yovanovitch, Ambassador William Taylor, who testified earlier this week,

George Kent, who was a top State Department official with oversight over Ukraine. We've known a lot of what they were going to say because of what they've said in hours long closed door depositions. What's different about this is how they present themselves to the public on camera and whether that can influence public opinion in any way at all. I thought Yovanovitch, for what she was trying to do, presented herself as a serious person, laid out what her concerns were, how she was targeted, and how she felt threatened by what the president said about her on the July 25th call. She also was able to, I think, lay out why she feels it's important that as an ambassador to another

country who's trying to fulfill U.S. stated foreign policy objectives, why she feels it's important that people understand that ousting a U.S. ambassador the way it was done might set a bad precedent. How is it that foreign corrupt interests can manipulate our government? Which country's interests are served when the very corrupt behavior we have been criticizing is allowed to prevail. Such conduct undermines the U.S., exposes our friends, and widens the playing field for autocrats like President Putin. Our leadership depends on the power of our example and the consistency of our purpose. Both have now been opened to question. I mean, there she talks about President Putin of Russia and the fact that geopolitically, he's really looking for leverage over Ukraine. And he, she said, was able to throw the U.S.

off the scent, at least President Trump, of saying that Russia was behind interference in U.S. elections, which the U.S. intelligence community has overwhelmingly stated it was Russia that was involved, not Ukraine. In some ways, this was a very long public service announcement about the very important, often difficult work that foreign service officers do for the U.S. government and for the American people. They go to difficult outposts and they represent the interests of the United States to other countries, to the leadership of those countries. And Yovanovitch, like Taylor and Kent, has been a diplomat for a very long time, has had a long

career. And she saw that career come to an end as the result of what she describes as a smear campaign. And then remarkably, during the hearing, Aisha, it kind of continued. Yes. So during the hearing, the president actually tweeted about Yovanovitch, essentially saying that everywhere she goes, bad things happen. He was almost blaming her. He brought up, she had an early post, I guess, in her career in Somalia. In Mogadishu, yeah. Yeah. And he said, look what happened there. I don't know, maybe blaming her for unrest in Somalia. But it led to this moment where Chairman Schiff basically read that tweet to Yovanovitch and got her reaction.

What would you like to respond to the president's attack that everywhere you went turned bad? Well, I mean, I don't think I have such powers, not in Mogadishu, Somalia, not in other places, I actually think that where I've served over the years, I and others have demonstrably made things better. So she was asked further about this, and she said, Yovanovitch said about that tweet, that she finds it intimidating, and the things that President Trump has said, that she finds it intimidating and the things that the president Trump has said that she finds it intimidating. What effect do you think that has on other witnesses' willingness to come forward and expose wrongdoing? Well, it's very intimidating. It's designed to intimidate, is it not? I mean, I can't speak to what the president is trying to do, but I think the effect is to be intimidating. Well, I want to let you know, Ambassador, that some of us here

take witness intimidation very, very seriously. Now, what the White House is saying is that how could this be intimidating to Yovanovitch? White House Press Secretary Stephanie Grisham says that the president was simply stating his opinion, which he is entitled to. She also said in a statement that this is not a trial. Therefore, he cannot be, I guess, intimidating witnesses. Now, the White House has also called for due process. So to say that this is not a trial in a way contradicts that. But they're just basically saying that they don't agree with the process at all and that the president is just stating his opinion. And look, this idea of witness intimidation, you know, that's laid out here that the White House is sort of defending themselves against already is important because you heard Adam Schiff say that witness intimidation is

something that he takes, quote, very, very seriously, which raised a flag for me and made me wonder if he's thinking about adding that now to a potential article of impeachment, along with hearing Nancy Pelosi say that what she sees the president having done is bribery. So bribery and witness intimidation as potential things that Democrats could add to articles of impeachment. And the other thing that the White House and Republicans on the committee have been the point that they've been making today is the ambassador serves at the pleasure of the president of the United States, which Ambassador Yovanovitch agreed with. She's like, yeah, the president can choose his ambassadors. That is true. Yes, he president can choose his ambassadors. That is true. remove me, but to remove me because of a smear campaign by people who may be corrupt sends the

wrong message to other countries. And that seemed to be the message that Yovanovitch was trying to get across. Yeah. And I think the bigger question that it raises that she tried to lay out was to say, who do U.S. diplomats overseas fight for? What is their role? Is their role to go and vouch for the president's personal interests or are they there to carry out officially stated U.S. policy, foreign policy? created, this regular channel and this irregular channel, as Ambassador Taylor called it, that was led by Giuliani, were so confusing for these longtime diplomats because they would write back or they would call in and say, has the U.S. official policy changed? Because they're trying to figure out, do they need to change? They will do what the president wants them to do as far as official foreign policy goes, but not necessarily. I think it makes them more concerned and more worried when they seemingly have to go and look into something that could be part of the president's personal interest. Let's turn to the Republican side. Democrats got the first 45 minutes of questioning,

then Republicans got the next 45 minutes. Right at the start of the hearing, Devin Nunes, the ranking member on that committee, took out a transcript that had just been released, a rough call log that had just been released by the White House of a call, the first call between President Trump and President Zelensky. This was a call on April 21st. The president, well, I agree with you about your country and I look forward to it. When I owned Miss Universe, they always had great people. Ukraine always very well represented, was always very well represented. When you're settled in and ready, I'd like to invite you to the White House. We'll have a lot of things to talk about,

but we're with you all the way. So it was the 16-minute short congratulatory call. Nunes read it. I mean, in some ways, this was great stagecraft from the White House and his allies on the Hill. Sure. I mean, to release it right at the exact time as this hearing was starting. The only question really here is what is this transcript supposed to show? You know, and the fact is, it actually wound up raising more questions than it did helping the president, I think, because in their readout in April, they said that the president pushed Zelensky to talk about corruption. There was not a single mention of corruption or even an intimation of looking into corruption. You know, you had Zelensky talking about tasty and

delicious food in Ukraine and trying to coax the president to go to Ukraine because he needs President Trump and the American president to look like he's fully on the side of Ukraine. And you had the president, on the other hand, saying he invited him to the White House in that call. The White House meeting still hasn't taken place and funds wound up being withheld that had already been appropriated by Congress. It does seem to serve having a transcript out there where President Trump is not bringing up Biden and just says only nice things. This is the actual perfect call. Yeah, this is the actual perfect call where nothing actually happened. And when you have two transcripts, that's going to be confusing to most people who are not following it as closely as we are.

That could be like, well, what transcript? People aren't going to know all those details. So by putting out two of them, you also can kind of add to confusion among the viewing public about what's actually happening. And then I do find it interesting that they've leaned so hard into this transcript. Like the president tweeted out screenshots of it. He has not been tweeting out screenshots of the other perfect call that happened on July 25th. So they seem to really like this call. And even though they said the president says he loves that other call, he has not taken the time to actually tweet out screenshots of that one. One last thing from this hearing is Devin Nunes, when he got his 45 minutes to ask questions,

the first thing he went to do was essentially say, why are we here again anyway? Not exactly sure what the ambassador is doing here today. This is the House Intelligence Committee that's now turned into the House Impeachment Committee. This seems more appropriate for the subcommittee on human resources at the Foreign Affairs Committee. This is the larger point that, you know, she wasn't there for the key moments of the July 25th phone call and the president has the right to oust whoever he wants. That's sort of the argument he was making there and an argument that Republicans on the committee, a number of them made.

OK, that is it for today's hearing, but there will be a bunch more next week. We're going to take a quick break. And when we get back, 2020. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Aspen Snowmass, dedicated to meaningful action on climate change. For over 20 years, Aspen Snowmass has implemented large-scale solutions, from generating clean power to wielding it. They installed the first solar array in the ski industry, the first LEED-certified building, and currently operate the only coal mine methane-to- energy plant in the country. Learn more about what Aspen Snowmass is doing to combat climate change at giveaflake.com. Support also comes from Uber.

Uber is committed to safety and to continuously raising the bar to help make safer journeys for everyone. For starters, all drivers are background checked before their first ride and screened on an ongoing basis. And now Uber has introduced a brand new safety feature called Ride Check,

which can detect if a trip goes unusually off course and check in to provide support. To learn more about Uber's commitment to safety, visit uber.com slash safety. A new reason to get up on Saturdays. Because now Up First gives you the biggest news of the day on Saturdays too. NPR's morning news podcast expands to your weekend every Saturday at 8 a.m. Eastern. I'm Scott Simon. And I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. Start your day informed six days a week now from NPR News. And we're back. And we've got Asma Khalid here with us now.

Hey, Asma. Hey there. And you are here because it is time to talk 2020. And there's somebody we need to say hello to. Hello. Yes. Yes. Is it me you're looking for? Hello, Michael Bloomberg. Hello. Yes. Yes. Is it me you're looking for?

Hello, Michael Bloomberg. Hello, Deval Patrick. Both of them are hoping to be the next president, which brings our tally of Democratic candidates to what? Too many. 18? 17? 18? Too many.

Tell me how to win your heart. For I haven't got a clue. But let me start by saying, I love you. So this is tricky because Michael Bloomberg has not officially decided whether or not he's going to be entering this contest, though he has filed to be on the ballot in some states already. I think that counts. I mean, if he's going to be on the ballot in Alabama and Arkansas, like, he's running.

Then he is technically, he is literally running for president. Domenico has announced that he is running for president of the United States. I haven't announced I'm running for anything. No, that he's announced. I know, I got you. But the other name this week that, you know, got a lot of attention from folks was the former governor of Massachusetts, Deval Patrick. He is, I believe, only the second African-American man elected as a governor anywhere in the United States history. Right. And you have covered him. What is his strategy? What's he what's he up to? So his strategy is different than what Michael Bloomberg's would be

if he enters the race. You know, Bloomberg has essentially said that if he were to enter, he would bypass the early voting states of Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Nevada. Deval Patrick's path to a nomination arguably has to go through his neighboring state of New Hampshire and then rests on doing really well with African-American voters in South Carolina. That is arguably his strategy. Now, he faces a lot of difficulties because he is entering this contest where we're less than three months away from when voters are going to start casting ballots. He doesn't have funds. You know, he doesn't have an organization. And some of these

other candidates have been out campaigning for months at this point. And so, Patrick, does he come to this race with any kind of baggage or anything like that? How strong of a candidate is he? I think one of the big things for him that's going to be problematic with this Democratic primary is the fact that he worked for Bain Capital after being governor, tried to make money, obviously. But Bain Capital, people might remember, was founded by Mitt Romney. Mitt Romney actually tweeted about the delusion of former Massachusetts governors who try to run for president. Ha ha. Get it? It didn't work out for him. He's a senator now. I think the bigger news here is that both Patrick getting in and Bloomberg

thinking about it are signals of something of no confidence votes in Joe Biden because he has struggled in the debates. His candidacy has seemed to sort of sputter that these folks who are kind of more centristy, left of center, they're certainly liberals, but they're more moderate than, say, Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders, that if Biden were strong, they probably wouldn't get in. Because Biden would have scared them away. Not scared them away. I think that they want somebody closer to the middle to win. There are a lot of Democrats in the establishment, Democratic people who've been part of the party for some time, who rightly or wrongly fear that

the policies of Elizabeth Warren in particular can't win in a general election when the focus should be on solely beating President Trump. So realistically, like, what difference will these two candidates make in this race? So at this point, it's just tough to get the name recognition, the campaign infrastructure, and the money to really have a viable contest. And Deval Patrick, he knows this. You know, he made these comments yesterday saying essentially that any presidential contest is a long shot, but his especially. You know, if running for president is a Hail Mary under any circumstances, this is like a Hail Mary from two stadiums over.

He's self-aware. So he knows it's hard, but he feels like it's important he has something to offer. I mean, this is tricky. You know, him and the former president, Barack Obama, are close. They have been close for years. Some of former President Obama's consultants, advisors like David Axelrod, were a part of helping him win the governorship in 2006. I don't see a scenario in which if, and this is me totally hypothesizing, but if Barack Obama had told him, like, no, don't enter this contest, that Deval Patrick would have entered. So to me, the fact that he got in, given how tight he is historically with Barack Obama, is significant, again, to what Domenico is saying. It's a vote of no confidence in Joe Biden or even just a question mark of confidence.

You know, they're so close that they actually borrowed passages from each other in 2008 when Obama was running. And Obama actually apologized and said that he should have cited Patrick in some of his rhetoric, but that Patrick allowed him to do it. So we are preparing to cover next week another Democratic debate. The stage is already set. These two aren't on that stage. That's right. Only 10 candidates are going to be on that stage. But really, Tam, to me, what's perhaps one of the most interesting things about this debate, as you might recall, like a lot of debates, we talk a lot about health care in all of the debates. And Elizabeth Warren, the senator from Massachusetts, was critiqued quite a bit about her Medicare for All plan and essentially whether or

not that would raise taxes. Since that last debate, she has now come out with plans. She, you know, released a plan for how she intends to pay for Medicare for All. And just today, she released a plan that outlines how she intends to transition to a Medicare for All system. So now she's got answers. The thing to me is like, are these answers really going to be sufficient to protect her from criticism? Or do they just give her opponents more fodder to work with? All right, we are going to take a quick break. And when we get back, can't let it go. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Google. From Connecticut to California, from Mississippi to Minnesota,

millions of American businesses are using Google tools to grow online. The Grow with Google initiative supports small businesses by providing free digital skills workshops and one-on-one coaching in all 50 states, helping businesses get online, connect with new customers, and work more productively. Learn more at google.com slash grow. What are the things that make us human? Why are we the way we are? I'm Guy Raz. Each week on NPR's TED Radio Hour, we dive into the incredible forces that shape our very existence. Listen now.

And we're back. And before we get to Can't Let It Go, we've got some news about one Roger Stone. He was found guilty of obstruction, witness tampering and lying to Congress. Stone was an advisor to President Trump, a political advisor for many years. Domenico, what does this all mean? Does this development matter or change anything? I mean, it's coming as the impeachment hearings are ongoing. Yeah. I mean, I think what's interesting about it, though, is that it picks up sort of on the Mueller report and Mueller investigation because, you know, a lot of people thought that that was over. But there have now been half a dozen people who've been ensnared in the Mueller

investigation. Roger Stone was part of that. I mean, you're talking about lying to Congress, obstruction, witness tampering, and that these are things that are still falling out from this Mueller investigation. And there are a handful of others who are going to be serving prison time as well, who are all close to President Trump. Well, and Stone was doing what he's now been convicted of in service of President Trump or to protect President Trump politically. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't really get much closer than what we've gotten to. The president's personal attorney in Michael Cohen, his campaign chairman in Paul Manafort, a senior advisor to his campaign in Roger Stone, somebody who certainly had the ear of the president, could call him anytime he wants. And just look at how that circle has tightened.

All right. We are going to let go of Roger Stone and talk about what we really can't let go of. Of course, this is our segment where we talk about the things that we can't stop thinking about politics or otherwise. Asma, what can't you let go of? So I'm sure you all are familiar with holograms, if you've ever, you know, remember seeing that one of Michael Jackson, what was it, a couple years ago at the Billboard Music Awards, and then there was the one of Tupac at, was it Coachella? Right, there, holograms. It was someplace. Or Anderson Cooper on CNN in 2008. Yes, that is the hologram I remember. That you remember. So I, earlier this week, was at the National Archives for this memorial tribute to Cokie Roberts, a longtime part of the NPR family.

And Cokie, you know, has written and talked a lot about the importance of women in the early American historical tradition, how they were not remembered. And she used to have this saying often, you know, remember the ladies. So anyhow, there is this giant mural on one of the walls of the Rotunda in the National Archives. And it's this picture of James Madison, essentially, I think, giving a draft of the Constitution to George Washington. So that night, they added the ladies hologramic version to this mural. And it's amazing. It was Abigail Adams, Martha Washington. I think it was Eliza Hamilton, Abigail Adams, a bunch of these women. I just want to show you a picture of this because it's kind of visual. You feel like you need to appreciate and see it.

So it's the founding mothers. The founding mothers. Okay, look at this. This is so cool. Yeah, I saw that. It's kind of creepy. It is nice. It's kind of creepy because I always feel like when you put like. You thought it's creepy?

No, I mean it's creepy in the sense that it's like seeing pictures of these old women. I mean, it's weird whenever you see holograms, I think, but it's cool creepy. So the news is Asma doesn't like pictures of old women. No. No. I'm showing this to you. I mean, it's cool that the founding mothers were added to the founding fathers. So are these holograms going to stay up there or was it just for a special event?

It was probably just special for Koki. I think it was special. But you know what? I will tweet it at my Twitter handle. So if people are actually curious about what this looks like, then you can see what I'm actually referring to. But hey, forget about the hologram. Somebody paint them in. Like, let's make it permanent.

I'm pretty sure that. Create a new painting. Okay. New painting, yes. Old painting probably needs to be preserved by the archives. But a great tribute to a great woman. Indeed. Aisha, what can't you let go of?

I cannot let go of this week. Everybody's been talking about that Disney Plus, which is the new streaming service. Well, I guess everybody hasn't been talking about it. So I was one of those people. I was like, there are too many streaming services. I already have Hulu, Netflix, Amazon Prime, cable. I got everything.

But everyone started talking about it. And I was like, you know what? As soon as the, on the day that it came out, I was like, I'm going to sign up. Oh my God. So did it live up to expectations? I feel really out of the loop that I actually don't know. You know, I have, like, basic television watching habits. I've been watching old Simpsons episodes, which I don't know if that's really an effective use of my money.

But I think I could already get that on cable. But I don't know. I just, it was something about it. And I was like, I'm going to get this. All right. What I cannot let go of is the fat cat. What? So apparently this guy wanted to fly with his cat, who he must love a lot because he overfed it over the course of years.

I mean, cats do tend to eat a lot. So apparently if you're flying with a cat, if you want to have it in the main cabin, it needs to be 17 pounds or less, which is substantial for a cat. This man's cat was 22 pounds. He's got to pay for a seat? No, no, no. They were going to try to put it in the underpart. And so the man got a dummy, like he got another cat. That looked like his cat.

I saw this. Yeah, so he got a cat that was like a more svelte cat, took the cat to the weigh-in at check-in, and then swapped it with his fat cat. Whose cat did he steal? No, no, no, no. He found someone on the internet. He's like, take the cat and just toss it out the ticket agent door. This is a very elaborate scheme.

He found somebody on Facebook and got them to bring their cat so that he could do the cat swap. And then he gets on the plane, starts Facebooking with his fat, fat cat, his 22-pound cat looking out the window with a glass of champagne, and he gets caught. Oh. I heard the flight attendant got suspicious when he ordered a filet. So I think the problem was that he was bragging about it. Like, he probably could have gotten away with it if he wasn't so public about it. Is that the case?

The fact that I brought my fat cat on? Yes. Yes. Yes. It was that he was, you know, he was being a braggart. So, kids, the lesson is don't be a braggart. Just switch out your fat cat and just don't tell nobody. And keep it on the download.

Domenico, what can't you let go of? Well, I can't let go of this contest to give people a thousand dollars to binge watch Hallmark Christmas movies. OK, if anybody has seen Hallmark Christmas movies, I have to remind some people for those who don't know what they're like, usually features a square jawed, sensitive hunk, you know, with a well-groomed beard, who's, you know, in some kind of seemingly platonic at first relationship with a nice, hardworking woman, but there's like some latent romance that they sort of chase after through this entire, like, snow-sprinkled show. Is that correct? I thought it was usually like the hardworking woman is like,

she's working at the job, she's working really hard, and then she has to go to her hometown where they only sell Christmas trees. Like evergreen. Yeah, and then they're like, oh stay and give up your hustle and bustle and then she's like, oh and there's this guy who cuts down the Christmas trees and he's really

hot and she's like, yes I'm gonna give up the working world. I'll stay. There's some degree of all of this to be true. Sometimes they stay. Sometimes they think about leaving. Whatever it is, the point is the company CenturyLink, and I'm not exactly sure why they're doing this,

they're choosing one lucky person to get $1,000 for the task of watching and critiquing 24 Hallmark Christmas movies leading up to December 25th. So like 12 days of Christmas, 24 movies. And they recommend, get this, making a short video, quote, showcasing your Christmas spirit for a shot at winning. To apply, you have to be at least 18 years old, love Christmas, and be willing to document the movie-watching process on social media. Okay, so hold on.

You can't. Domenico would not win this contest. Can't be the Grinch. I could win this contest. You have to have the Christmas spirit. But Christmas is one of those times of year

that bring out a degree of joy and hope and optimism even in someone like me. And with that, I think it is officially the season when we are allowed

to play Christmas music. I don't want a lot for Christmas. I don't agree with that. You do, you don't agree until after Thanksgiving. I had somebody tell me that with an impeachment going on,

it's okay to put your tree up now. All right, that is a wrap for today. Our executive producer is Shirley Henry. Our editors are Mathani Maturi and Eric McDaniel. Our producer is Barton Girdwood. Our production assistant is Chloe Weiner. Thanks to Lexi Schapittel, Dana Farrington, Brandon Carter, and Elena Burnett. I'm Tamara Keith. I cover the White House.

I'm Aisha Rasto. I also cover the White House. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the presidential campaign. And I'm Domenico Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.