The NPR Politics Podcast - Weekly Roundup: May 21st

Episode Date: May 21, 2021

The left flank of the Democratic party has exerted a lot of influence over the Biden administration on issues like climate change and economic strain. Will progressive sway Biden on Israel, too? And concerns over mental health could present a foothold for bipartisan regulation of big tech.This episode: White House correspondent Scott Detrow, White House correspondent Asma Khalid, senior political editor and correspondent Ron Elving, and political reporter Miles Parks.Connect:Subscribe to the NPR Politics Podcast here.Email the show at [e-mail] the NPR Politics Podcast Facebook Group.Listen to our playlist The NPR Politics Daily Workout.Subscribe to the NPR Politics Newsletter.Find and support your local public radio station.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hi, this is Alexandra Powell in Portsmouth, Virginia, but I teach eighth grade history at H.G. Hill Middle School in Nashville, Tennessee. I promised one of my students that if he earned an A in my class, I would do 100 sit-ups. He did his part. Now it's my turn. This podcast was recorded at... Oh, man. When that started, I was like, I always loved the middle school history teacher timestamps, but now I love them even more. It's 1240 Eastern on Friday, May 21st. Things may have changed by the time you hear it, but I will probably still be on the floor recovering.

Okay, here's the show. Watch it, not even breathless. 100 is no joke. No, that's a lot of sit-ups. Give me a time frame. I think you can knock them out over the course of a podcast. Anybody listening at home, give it a try. 100 sit-ups during the podcast. Let us know how it goes. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Scott Detrow. I cover the White House. I'm Asma Khalid. I also cover the White House. And I'm Ron Elving, editor-correspondent.

And you may have heard it right there, but guess who is back in the podcast? It's Asma! Hey, guys. How's it going? What's new with you, Asma? What's new? Well, I had a baby. I actually don't know if folks who are listening to the podcast actually gleaned that.

I might not have mentioned it before, but I'm back, and I had a little baby. And I will say, there's still construction going on outside my house. We are still working from home. Some things have changed and some have remained the same. It is nice to have you back in the podcast. And I will just say one of my favorite first vaccinated moments was picking up and holding your baby, which was a really nice moment. Thank you. It was so great to see you in real life, actually.

I feel like I hadn't seen a lot of humans in the flesh in a very long time. And try doing 100 sit-ups while holding a baby. It's a different kind of core workout. So the three of us have a lot to talk about. Asma, you and I have been reporting all week on how the White House handled this crisis in Israel and Gaza. And two key things emerged. First of all, the White House really focused on behind the scenes diplomacy. The first time Biden came out and made a formal statement on this was when it was all over last night. I believe the Palestinians and Israelis equally deserve to live safely and securely and to enjoy equal measures of freedom, prosperity, and democracy.

My administration will continue our quiet, relentless diplomacy toward that end. I mean, really, really amazing that, you know, he had responded to some shouted questions from reporters, but the president not coming out and speaking to something like this until 11 days in, until the ceasefire, was really remarkable. I mean, look, the administration was incredibly disciplined on this. You know, they feel like had they engaged in this conflict, had they called for a ceasefire from the moment, you know, missiles were fired back and forth, that ultimately they worry that could have led to a protracted war. There are people in this administration that were there in 2014 when the Gaza war went on for, you know, more than 50 days, a lot more loss of

life, and they were trying to avoid that. You know, Scott, though, you've also said, I mean, I think that's part of the equation, but also part of the equation is the fact that the Biden administration has wanted to focus on other foreign policy priorities. And frankly, Israel-Palestinian conflict was really not at the top of their list coming in. Yeah, there's been a real trend of if it's not the issue the Biden White House wanted to focus on that week, they're not going to adjust their public event plan to really accommodate for that. And you can argue that's the type of thinking that got Biden elected president. But I mean, it's gotten a lot of frustration. Ron, how striking was this to you compared to the playbook that we've seen rolled out over and over again when there is Israeli

Palestinian violence? This is a high contrast to somebody like Jimmy Carter with the Camp David Accords or Bill Clinton when his efforts to revive and extend the Camp David Accords or Bill Clinton with his efforts to revive and extend the Camp David Accords. And every president since has tried in some sense or another to achieve a peace in the Middle East that could be a major monument. Yeah, Asma, I don't think I've told you this, but we're working on this NPR anniversary podcast that will be in your feed soon. And there was this striking moment as this was all starting up. We're listening back and it's an interview Mara is doing with Bill Clinton in the Oval Office. And this isn't the point of the interview, but Bill Clinton says,

you know, I was up till midnight last night working with Prime Minister Netanyahu trying to address this violence. And it was like, well, some things haven't changed at all. And other things have changed dramatically because Biden did not take that approach. But the second thing, and Asma, you had a piece today really focusing on this, was a really interesting shift in dynamics within the Democratic Party. And that was major frustration and anger that progressives had with Biden and the Biden administration for how they talked about this, what they seem to prioritize, particularly the fact that Biden continued to lead throughout this with Israel has a right to defend itself against rocket attacks. The US stands by Israel and progressives were saying, what about all the Palestinian deaths? You are not seeming to emphasize this or think about it that much based on what you're telling us. Yeah, I mean, look, I think there was really sort of more outspoken criticism from the left

on this issue than we've heard in previous administrations in previous years. And I would say that there are really two main factors that explain what was going on here. One is, I actually think that this is somewhat tied to Israeli domestic politics, and that there is, you know, a prime minister, as you mentioned, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who over the years has come to embrace the American right wing. And they, in turn, have embraced him back. And that has created a fissure with, you know, some folks within the Democratic Party. And then the other factor that's going on here is intimately connected to what we've seen in the Democratic Party here at home.

And that is the fact that there is the growing power of racial justice movements, of social justice movements within the party. And I mean, there's a lot more to talk about there. But I think that that is a big explanation for what we've seen going on here is that, you know, you talk to young activists, and they will say that they see the sort of conflict and the struggle that Palestinians are going through as being akin to, say, the movement for black lives here in the United States. You saw President Biden in a visit to Detroit last week when he was going there on another mission entirely, spend eight minutes talking on the tarmac to one member of the Michigan delegation. And that, of course, was Rashida Tlaib, one of the Muslim members of the House of Representatives and the Democratic Party. But it was not limited only to the Muslim members. We saw a number of other members of Congress

stepping up, making a fuss about American arms sales to Israel. Now, that's not something we've seen much of in the past. And yet, there was actually an effort in the House to question whether the United States was going to go through with a $700 million arms sale to Israel because of this violence. This is a real change, and it is not limited only to a few of the most progressive members or a few of the Democrats who are people of color. People have taken a somewhat different tack on the entire relationship between Israel and the Palestinians. So Asma, what was your sense talking to progressives about this, talking to the Biden administration about this, about whether this pressure and this conversation that really flared up within democratic circles this week, is there any chance that this kind of affects the Biden

administration's thinking going forward? Or given what we were saying before, that Biden really does have other foreign policy priorities, other priorities in the Middle East, especially, you know, think about the trying to restart the Iran nuclear deal in some way, shape or form, that the Biden administration is just kind of like moving on, and he's promised to help Gaza, but this is not going to be something that is the top of his to-do list. Well, the Biden administration knew that they were going to receive pressure from progressives within the party. You know, I think that the frustration I've been hearing from progressives is that they feel that they've been able to nudge the Biden administration

on some other issues, say climate change, for example. And they don't feel like they've been able to nudge the Biden administration on this particular issue, you know, frankly, much at all. And I will say that there were, you know, conversations that I had with some young progressives who felt like to some degree, the initial early statements coming out of the Biden White House, they felt were not that much different than what they had seen and heard from the Trump administration in terms of, you know, sort of unconditional support they feel for for Israel and that the fact that Israel has the right to defend itself. I will say, I think that part of this is whether or not Joe Biden wants to deal with the pressure

he is receiving from the left on this issue at this moment, I don't know that this will entirely go away, I guess is what I'm saying. I think that these forces are growing. You know, in reporting out this story, I was really intrigued to learn that part of this is tied to the fact that Black activists and Palestinian activists from, you know, Ferguson, Missouri to Florida have been on the ground working together for years. And so I talked to this guy who in 2012 formed a group called Dream Defenders. They organize black and brown communities. And he told me that through their collaborations, they've been talking about, quote, state sanctioned terror. They see parallels between

the situation in Israel and the situation that African Americans have received from, you know, the police force here in the United States. And over these number of years, he's actually led four delegations of Black activists, you know, this includes people like the co-founder of the Black Lives Matter movement, to Israel to see how Palestinians are living there. That was so interesting. And Ron, such an interesting parallel and contrast to the way that lawmakers of both parties, particularly Republicans, have been invited on trips to Israel for decades and decades. of the power relationships in the Middle East. So that at one time, certainly during the 1967 war, the Yom Kippur War in 1973, and subsequently, there was a sense of Israel as this little embattled country, David and Goliath playing David, of course. And now that the Israeli defense force is clearly the strongest military power in that region. The enemies, the immediate enemies such as Egypt and

Syria have receded as threats. Israel is seen more in contrast to the people of Gaza or to the people of the West Bank. And that is really quite a different power relationship. And that has subtly begun to change attitudes towards the United States and Israel and all of the other powers in the Middle East, particularly when you crank in our interest in some kind of an arrangement vis-a-vis Iran. Ron, thank you so much for joining us. It was really nice to catch up with you. Hey, good to be with you again, both of you. Ron, we will talk soon. Asma, stick around. We're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we are going to talk about Facebook. You will hear surprising and intimate stories. Stories that help you notice things in your world that maybe you didn't see before. Listen to the Invisibilia podcast from NPR.

We are back and Miles Parks is with us now. Hey, Miles. Hey, Scott. Just like with Asma, I saw you in real life recently and it was really exciting. And I just want to dwell on that nice moment again. I've been thinking about that moment. So we went out to the softball fields and hit the ball around and caught some grounders. And it has gotten me through the last couple of weeks. I've just been

randomly walking around my house and I'll just be like, ah, remember when I was out in the sun catching grounders? So that was nice. You know why it was nice? Because we were seeing each other in real life. And that is actually like the flip side to some really good reporting that you did this week. As you cover disinformation, you've been digging in more and more on the role that social media plays in all of this. So the story that you just put together starts with an interesting moment you saw and you covered on Capitol Hill. Start off by telling us what you saw. Yeah. So basically, this was this hearing that the major social media companies went to Capitol Hill in March, and it took a lot of questions about misinformation from lawmakers

for like five or six hours. There was this one particular moment, though, between Representative Kathy McMorris Rogers, who is a Republican from Washington, where she's asking Mark Zuckerberg, she lists all these statistics about how the depression rates in the US among teens have gone up over the last 10 years, suicide rates, all of these like really scary mental health statistics. And then she gets to this point where she's like, do you acknowledge basically that your platforms play a role in this depression problem we're having. And Zuckerberg says, I don't think the research has been conclusive on that. Yes or no. Do you agree?

Too much time in front of screens, passively consuming content is harmful to children's mental health. Congresswoman, the research that I've seen on this suggests that if people are using computers and social apps. Can you answer yes or no? I'm sorry. Could you use yes or no? I don't think that the research is conclusive on that, but I can summarize what I've learned if that's helpful. Like, it's obvious that, like, for Facebook, it is clearly in their interest to have the idea of like kids, you know, being more suicidal or more depressed, connect to their platform, it's bad for business to have that connected to them.

So the idea that this is inconclusive, whether it is or not, it's objectively in their interest to have that kind of be the opinion about it. And so it just kind of got me in the mode of like, I want to learn more about this. And I also just want to learn about like Facebook's relationship with the science community. So, Miles, did you actually find answers to those questions? To a certain extent. I mean, the answer, the question about whether the science is inconclusive is complicated. But I will say that a lot of the researchers I talked to were a little frustrated with Zuckerberg's kind of idea that all of the science around social media is inconclusive.

That implies this idea that we don't know anything about how these platforms are connected to depression and social media. There have been a number of studies that paint this association between social media and depression, but there hasn't been that causation link. That part is the part that is still really inconclusive at this point. Does social media cause depression or do depressed people just use social media more? That's still, there's a lot, researchers basically say, we need to do a lot more research into this specific subject. But I will say, as I was calling these researchers,

asking them about this stuff, what I found out was that Facebook had also been reaching out to them in the last couple months. I was not the only person who was curious about these issues. These are people who have studied the ill effects of social media on mental health. And for the first time in their careers in the last couple months, three different researchers I talked to described getting contacted by Facebook to give their input on some sort of internal information. I talked to the company. They wouldn't tell me more about what that internal information was other than that it

was something about virality and content and algorithms. But we know that these three researchers study specifically depression and social media, and they were contacted by Facebook. So this is, in one way or another, Facebook is clearly thinking about this and trying to find out more about this. And I think this leads to the natural parallel in a lot of people's minds is that there's a pretty long history,

in Washington especially, of enormous industries, powerful industries, who at a certain point figure out there's something negative about their products, whether it's cigarettes or energy companies, fossil fuel companies, right? Who then either deny that fact or muddy up the waters and say it's inconclusive for a very long time when regulators come calling. Right. And I mean, that conclusion is not one that just we are having.

I mean, one of the researchers I talked to compared the current situation to climate change and said basically there are a number of people who have a loud voice who say there is no connection between depression and social media. And that might be because the companies have an interest in furthering that research. I will say, though, it is more complicated than especially cigarettes. I talked to this one researcher who in a previous life had researched tobacco and now researches the effects of social media. And I asked him, like, does this remind you of everything that happened with the cigarette companies muddying the waters? And he said, no, because that's a little oversimplifying it. Basically, what he

said is there is some research that does indicate that social media can be good for some people and some kids. There are studies that show it's good for brain development in some cases, all these different things. Okay, Miles, though, I'm going to pause you right there. Explain that to me, because I actually feel like as I've been listening to you talk, the idea that, you know, Facebook and mental health or that social media and mental health is linked feels like a no-brainer to a layperson. And so here you are saying that actually there's positive side effects to this too. As now a new parent, that feels like mind-boggling to me, to be blunt. A lot of the research is a lot more nuanced than just Facebook is good or Instagram is good or bad

for you. And that's something the company really points to a lot is that a lot of the research seems to indicate a difference between the way people use the platforms, for instance. Are you an active user who's messaging your friends and getting invited to stuff? Or are you a passive user who's just like laying in bed, scrolling for hours and hours and hours?

You're probably gonna have different mental health effects depending on which one of those things you are. The other thing is that some of the research does seem to indicate there's a difference in the effects depending just on how often you're using them. Are you somebody who's using them for an hour a day or are you somebody who's using them for four, five, six hours a day? That probably plays a big role in the mental health effects as well. So the company is just really big on saying this is nuanced, this is complicated. They say they're trying to understand it. in the mental health effects as well. So the company is just really big on saying, this is nuanced, this is complicated.

They say they're trying to understand it. It's not as simple as these things are just bad for you. So Miles, let me end it with this. You were covering voting, which was obviously a pretty big topic last year and early this year, but then you shifted to covering disinformation, which unfortunately obviously a pretty big topic last year and early this year. But then you shifted to covering disinformation, which unfortunately, there's a big overlap between the two of them. But you have been in this world more and more. And you know, I feel like increasingly your big stories

come out. And it's like social media plays such an enormous role in all of this. And I'm wondering, as you've kind of learned more about this, what's the most surprising thing you've learned about social media and disinformation and everything else? I think through all of this, I continue to be amazed by the amount of power that these companies wield in our everyday lives. And I think it's something that continues to be, like we say it, but I don't know that I walk around with that feeling of understanding of how much the Googles and Facebooks kind of affect the way I think, the way I talk to people, the way my friends perceive me. All of that is affected by these companies, and they've gotten so big. These are like quasi governmental entities at this point i just think

about like the facebook oversight board decision a couple weeks ago where this is a company basically deciding what kind of former president talk to millions of people or can he not and it's like all of these and you know this question about is this stuff like really really bad for us and who's going to tell us if it is. It just, the amount of power that companies have continues to shock me every single story I do, I feel like. All right, I do need to note here that Facebook is a financial sponsor of NPR. We're going to take a quick break here.

When we come back, can't let it go. We are back and it is time to end the show like we do every week, Can't Let It Go. We are back and it is time to end the show like we do every week with Can't Let It Go, the part of the show where we talk about the things we cannot stop talking about politics or otherwise. Asma, it's been a while since you've done one, so why don't you go first?

So mine is in otherwise. What I cannot let go is my new baby. I guess that is a very physical thing that I cannot let go of. But no, I mean, hear me out. I think the circumstances in which he was born have just made me really appreciate him. And I haven't shared this with a whole lot of people, you know, maybe frankly

no one here but Scott, but I had a really hard time conceiving my older son. I had a miscarriage, you know, multiple embryo transfers via IVF. And that's all the stuff that people don't talk about. They just see the baby and the baby photo at the end and congratulate you on that. And so because that was so hard, it was really challenging. I felt like the entire pregnancy with my first kid, I was always afraid, maybe a little irrationally that he would just not make it that he would like die up until the end. Thankfully, he made it. But, you know, it made this second pregnancy an entirely different experience, even though the world around me, I felt was going

absolutely nuts, right? There was a coronavirus spreading there, there was a crazy election that we were covering. Strangely, I felt like I didn't go through all of that. And you know, I hadn't didn't go through IVF the second time I didn't go through the multiple miscarriages, etc. And it just felt like it was a much more peaceful process. And I felt at a lot more ease. And, you know, I guess I share all of this, because as I realized, I began to talk to friends about this, I realized when you go through all of that alone by yourself, it's really painful, and it's really isolating. And I just wanted folks to realize that, you know, look, a lot of women, a lot of people struggle with having their children and it's not an isolating experience. It's incredibly,

incredibly difficult and I just wanted to share that. I think a lot of people are going to really appreciate you sharing that and saying that. Yeah, and I think it also is just a reminder that, you know, i haven't seen you in over a year asma we sit right next to each other at work and there's gonna be right it's like there's gonna be all these moments right this year where like you everyone's in different ways has like like changed and gone through something like really unprecedented, whether it's like related to the world or whether it's like much more individual like yours. And I just, I don't know, it's that that's really beautiful the way you put that. And Asma, it is. I saw you in a lot of stressful

situations over over over that period of time. And it's true, you just had like this calm, zen feel. I was very zen. I remember friends being like, you're traveling. And it's true, you just had this calm, zen feel about you. I remember friends being like, you're traveling? And I was like, you know what? I made it this far. Hopefully this baby will live. No, there was a very zen experience this time around. So anyhow, Scott, what can't you let go of?

Well, I guess it's kind of like a bookend fast forward a few years down the line, can't let it go. So my son's a little older than your older son. And we have reached the phase where he just asks questions all the time. And often I will just like earnestly roll with it and see what happens. And I feel like the logical, the end point, I'll be like, because we revolve around the sun, because we're all made of atoms. I don't know. I don't know the answer to your question you know so in that mindset

uh i saw this was everywhere but i saw it in the washington post so i'm gonna read the washington post story that i came across and at the beginning of the story i will say every kid in the story is okay and safe but there was um this sounds a little ominous what an intro it's it's a scary story with a very funny plot twist. In Columbia, South Carolina, somebody hijacked a school bus the other day. You know, he was armed. It was very frightening. He gets on the school bus, he hijacks the school bus, and he, you know, makes the school bus driver drive him. He's like trying to go to some town 15 miles away or so. Again, everybody is safe. The school bus driver shared the story with Good Morning America,

and here's the write-up I saw. The gun bus driver shared the story with Good Morning America. And here's the write up I saw. The gunman seemed intent on reaching the next town at least 15 miles away. Then the kids, the kindergartners especially, started peppering him with questions, Corbin said. Was he a soldier? Why was he doing this? Is he going to hurt them? What about the driver?

Six minutes after boarding the bus, the hijacker ordered everybody off. This is the quote from the bus driver. It seemed like he sensed more questions coming. I guess something clicked and he said, enough already. Get off this bus, kids. Get out of here. Basically, he couldn't handle an entire bus of kids. Who are you?

What are you doing? What's your name? This should be like taught to hostage negotiators, right? How do you de-escalate the situation just irritate them as much as possible it sounds like keep asking questions um miles what about you so mine is and i want you to go with me on this one for a second is about baseball cards and also a little bit about redemption. I will say in the next couple weeks, it's expected that the most expensive baseball card ever is about to get sold.

And what was amazing about this, and I admittedly would probably read about this no matter what, but our NPR reporter Vanessa Romo did a nice write-up and i what was amazing was the guy who had this card thomas newman who was like obsessed with baseball cards his whole life this obsession started when he was 10 years old and he had started collecting baseball cards in the 50s and then at some point his mom was just like no this isn't happening and just threw out all of his baseball cards yeah i mean so this trauma 20 years later 30 years later he's like you know what i'm gonna start trying to find all those cards that my mom threw out 30 years ago and he starts doing this in the

80s and the 90s and he ends up getting this 1933 Babe Ruth baseball card that is going to be auctioned in the next couple weeks for like over $5 million. And so I think that's just a lesson that if your mom throws out your stuff, just go get new stuff. My mom had this intervention. It was not with anything that would make me muddy, but it was I had like every sports illustrated from years. And she was just like, you can keep five or something. And just like, stop, stop.

I have a bobblehead doll collection. I'm super embarrassed about that. I actually wish my mom had made me throw them away because now there's like 50 bobbleheads in like a cardboard box at my childhood home. Okay, so they're not like all over your adult apartment. No, they're not displayed. No, no, no, no, no.

But I simultaneously want them gone and we'll never be able to make the decision to get rid of them. And so I'm just hoping at some point she tosses them.

But I think we're kind of in a little bit of a standoff. All right. All right. That is a wrap for today. Our executive producer

is Shirley Henry. Our editors are Mathani Maturi and Eric McDaniel. Our producers are Barton Girdwood and Eric McDaniel. Our producers are Barton Girdwood and Chloe Weiner. Thank you to Lexi Schipittel and Brandon Carter. Our intern is Claire Obie. I'm Scott Detrow. I cover the White House. I'm Miles Parks. I cover voting and misinformation. And I'm Asma Khalid. I also cover the White House. Thank you for listening to the