The NPR Politics Podcast - Weekly Roundup: Thursday, April 26

Episode Date: April 27, 2018

President Trump's embattled nominee Ronny Jackson withdrew his name to serve as the head of the VA. The Senate Judiciary Committee approved a bill with bipartisan support to protect Special Counsel Robert Mueller if he is fired. The team also discusses the visit of French president Emmanuel Macron. This episode: Congressional correspondent Susan Davis, White House reporter Ayesha Rascoe, editor and correspondent Ron Elving and Congressional reporter Kelsey Snell. Email the show at [e-mail]. Find and support your local public radio station at npr.org/stations.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Hi, this is Molly Scarborough calling from Graz, Austria, and I'd like to wish my mom, Mary Scarborough, a very happy birthday. This podcast was recorded at 2.24 p.m. on Thursday, April 26th. Things may have changed by the time you hear this. Keep up with all of NPR's political coverage on NPR.org, on the NPR One app, and on your local public radio station. Okay, here's the show. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast, and we're here with our weekly roundup of political news. This week, President Trump's embattled nominee, Ronny Jackson, withdrew his name

to serve as Secretary of Veterans Affairs. The Senate Judiciary Committee approved a bill with bipartisan support to protect special counsel Robert Mueller in the event he is fired. And French President Emmanuel Macron made a whirlwind visit that included the first state dinner under the Trump administration. And of course, we'll end the pod as we always do with the one thing we just can't let go this week. I'm Susan Davis. I cover Congress. I'm Ayesha Roscoe. I cover the White House. I'm Kelsey Snell. I also cover Congress. And I'm Ron Elving, editor correspondent. I think we need to start the pod this week with a

little bit of birthday wishes. Happy birthday to First Lady Melania Trump, who I like to believe is an avid NPR politics listener. We don't know. I would like to imagine that too. To you. And our own Domenico Montanaro shares a birthday with Melania Trump, which is one more thing those two have in common. What are the other things?

People are talking. A love of hats, perhaps? So we got to start the roundup this week, I think, by talking about the one name that you've all probably been hearing in the news this week, Navy Rear Admiral Ronnie Jackson. Ronnie Jackson had been President Trump's nominee to run the Department of Veteran Affairs. He withdrew his name from consideration for the job today following allegations that came to light about

his personal conduct during the time that he has served as the top doctor in the White House. He has served under the past three presidents. Ayesha, you've been covering this story this week. Let's just start with the allegations that came to light against him. Yes, and I'm sure that Ronny Jackson never envisioned being in the spotlight in this way. But, yes, some of the accusations that came out about him, and they were outlined in this two- page document from Senator John Tester, a Democrat on the Veterans Affairs Committee. The accusations came from 23 former and current military colleagues of Dr. Jackson.

And they range from, you know, kind of being loose with prescriptions to and not keeping proper records. And in one case, which seemed one of the most serious cases, giving a large amount of Percocets to a staffer in the White House military office and not keeping proper track of that. That led to the office worrying about there being a shortage. And they found out that Dr. Jackson, according to these allegations, had given them to someone. And so and the other serious accusation is getting drunk at a going away party and wrecking a car. And so these accusations, to be very clear, have not been proven. And so but these were some of the serious accusations against Dr. Jackson. So Ronnie Jackson denied all of these allegations. The White House yesterday was mounting a pretty rigorous defense of him, seeming to stand by him. Ronnie Jackson

said he wanted to have his day at the hearing to defend himself. Why withdraw? Well, I think after the actual summary came out, the new things were the Percocets, that incident and the wrecking of the government vehicle while being drunk. Those accusations, those are pretty hard to have hanging over your head while trying to go through a nomination process. And so I think that what happened was there were already questions about Dr. Jackson, even before any of these accusations coming out, the idea that he didn't have the managerial experience to run the VA, which is a huge bureaucracy and that that is responsible for helping, you think, that was already a knock against him. And so then you add on these very serious accusations. It would have been hard for anyone to overcome, but I think when you're already starting out kind of behind the line, I think it made it kind of impossible. Also, the nature of the people who were making these accusations, they were going to senators. They were not identifying themselves in public, but they were identifying themselves to members of the relevant committee.

And they were members of the military, many of them still in uniform. They were people who would not seem automatically to have an ax to grind against Ronny Jackson, who has been, by all reports, highly popular with all the presidents that he's served. So there was something going on here. And there are a couple of issues that seem to, in the end, have really made the difference, even apart and aside from some of the unpleasant allegations that were being made about his drinking habits. The most important of these was probably the opioid, the Percocet, because that is something the country is fixed on at this particular moment. It is a crisis in much of the nation. It is a crisis in many of the states that are electing senators this fall. And so all of

these things are in the background as people have come out of the woodwork to say, wait a minute, maybe Ronny Jackson's a great guy, but maybe this is not the job for him. And Kelsey, I think we need to do a little Capitol Hill decoding here because John Tester, the top Democrat on the Veterans Affairs Committee, took center stage here. He was the source for essentially making public the allegations against Ronny Jackson. But there wasn't a lot of Republican senators rushing to his defense in this either. Right. Absolutely. Because Tester was not the only person who was receiving these complaints. I spoke with Senator Mike Rounds, another member on that committee. He's a Republican from South Dakota, and he said that he had received complaints and he had been contacted by constituents, people who lived in South Dakota who were military officials who had similar complaints.

It just happened to be that Tester, being the top Democrat on the committee, was in charge of putting the information out. And I guess for that reason, that's why the White House has focused on Tester and kind of aimed their ire at him. But this is a very bipartisan situation. And the complaints about his potentially not being experienced enough in management or having the skills necessary to run an agency that has over 350,000 employees overseeing the care of over 9 million veterans, those questions were there beforehand, like Ayesha mentioned. So this is not a partisan exercise. Ron brought this up and you and I have talked about this, too, that in the rainbow of allegations against him, the one that I think made a very clear signal that this nomination couldn't go forward was allegations that he may have inappropriately handled opioid drugs, specifically Percocet. I think we need to explain to people like why that was so

toxic to senators on Capitol Hill, sort of the politics of the opioid debate. If there's one thing that Congress can agree on both sides of the aisle, House and Senate, is that there is an opioid addiction problem in the United States. And they have focused for several years on finding ways to combat that. They've passed bills, one known as CARA, that was supposed to help local governments combat opioid addiction and get people treatment and kind of head off addiction before it even happens. And they have frequently been having arguments about how much money to funnel towards opioids. And it's something that they've largely reached an agreement on. We use the term third rail of American politics all of the time, but congressionally speaking, opioids are kind of it

right now. It's as much as Me Too and sexual harassment are a big disqualifying factor for a member of Congress. Even appearing for just a moment to be okay with somebody who has over prescribed an opiate is just the end for somebody in Congress. This is just not something that they can countenance right now. Aisha, there also seems to be a bigger point here. And what did the Ronny Jackson incident this week tell us about how the White House is vetting the nominees they're sending to Capitol Hill for approval? Well, Ronny Jackson is basically a textbook example of what you don't want to happen and why you vet. This is what you don't want to happen. You don't want stories coming out about drunken driving and being loose with prescriptions.

And so I think that this is an example where the White House is saying he has worked through three administrations. This is not an outsider that they brought in. And a lot of people spoke in his defense this week, too. Yes. So he worked for he was President Obama's personal, you know, White House physician. So this is someone who has been around. And so he had been through at least four background checks. I think what some would argue is that with these types of positions where you're going to be in such a high profile position, which is being the head of the VA, that you may have to go beyond just an FBI background check, that you may have to actually talk to people who've worked with him

and say, is there anything that might come up? Yeah, because it's not just about the law or legality. It's about character and conduct. Yeah, we should be clear that a nomination and a vetting process for somebody who is going to become the head of an agency or a cabinet member is just a much more rigorous process than a background check. And for a lot of reasons, they are overseeing and managing many, many more people as a head of an agency than you would be as, say, White House doctor. And typically, as we've said already, be as, say, White House doctor. And typically, as we've said already, this happens both at the White House level before the person is nominated and then in a very routine process in every committee. Every committee in the Senate has an investigative staff whose job it is and has always been to investigate the background of

nominees. This is not some situation where they're going after Ronny Jackson specifically, but doing their constitutional job to vet nominees. But Ron, Donald Trump is not the first president that has seen a nominee go down in flames or embarrassing after conduct came to light. I mean, there's something about this, what happened with Ronny Jackson this week, that is a very familiar Washington story. That's right. Let's go all the way back to John Tower, who had been a senator from Texas and was very well known in the Senate, but was rejected when nominated to be Secretary of Defense by the first President Bush back in 1989. There were allegations of excessive drinking in that particular case. And I think that there have been many occasions

when someone who had other problems or with whom other people had problems, issues, were done in by allegations of personal bad judgment or personal improprieties. Oddly enough, one of the people who was early on in the Bill Clinton administration nominated to be Attorney General was a woman named Kimba Wood, who was very well respected in the legal community and was seen as a great pick to be Attorney General. At a time when we had not had a woman named Kimba Wood, who was very well respected in the legal community and was seen as a great pick to be attorney general at a time when we had not had a woman attorney general. And she was shot down over something having to do with filing the right papers for her nanny. Yeah. Not an allegation of illegality, but just bad optics.

So we have seen this again and again. And what it generally does is it hobbles the first weeks of a presidency. But we are now into, what, 14, 15 months of this presidency. We've seen something approaching half of the White House staff having turned over. And getting rid of a Ronny Jackson nominee or possibly getting rid of Scott Pruitt, and we're going to talk about his rather precarious position in a moment, getting rid of these people does not solve the problem because you have to get new people in there to take their place. And time is passing. We should say that President Trump appeared on Fox and Friends this morning. He did say on that show that he has somebody in mind for VA secretary. He did not say who it was.

But as of now, that's still it's an unfilled vacancy. And whoever's nominated will still have to go through this exact same vetting process. Let's move on to another member of Donald Trump's cabinet who is also facing scrutiny for personal and professional behavior. We're talking about EPA Chief Scott Pruitt. He's having a really fun day on Capitol Hill, appearing before two congressional panels. And I just want to play a little bit of sound that will give you a sense of how these hearings have been going. You are unfit to hold public office and undeserving of the public trust. And I don't say those words, you know, because I particularly dislike you or or, you know, hold you in ill repute. I just think that every indication we have is that you really should resign. Now, that was Frank Pallone. He was a Democrat from New Jersey on

the committee. That gives you a sense of how Democrats are approaching Scott Pruitt today. Another member of this administration facing rather serious allegations. Aisha, I will ask you again to talk us through. What are we talking about about Scott Pruitt? Well, Scott Pruitt, he is being looked at mostly for things that happened while he is EPA administrator. And these aren't uncommon scandals, but they seem to pop up a lot with Pruitt. and that's flying first class, you know, kind of misuse of taxpayers' funds, like you chartering flights and doing things that people feel like are inappropriate or not being as careful with taxpayer dollars as he should. He's also accused of having, getting a sweetheart deal to rent a room in a condo in D.C. from the wife of a lobbyist. And then also government watchdog, the government

accountability office, they found that EPA, when they installed a $43,000 soundproof booth in Pruitt's office, that they actually broke the law. They didn't get the proper approval from Congress. So these are just some of the things that have been following Scott Pruitt lately. But Kelsey, Scott Pruitt to me seems there's a distinction here, too, because while Ronny Jackson didn't really enjoy many public defenders on Capitol Hill, there's still a lot of Republicans who really like Scott Pruitt and the job he's doing at EPA. Yeah, absolutely. I'm really glad you brought that up because it's something that is kind of hard to understand if you're watching it from far away. You see Republicans kind of doing this awkward dance where they kind of want to defend Pruitt, but they also really can't

defend him against these things that he's being accused of and they want to be hard on him. Of any of the messages that President Trump, you know, had out there on the campaign trail, one of the ones people really loved was drain the swamp. And this is the most swamp like behavior that you can probably think of. And, you know, you're hearing all these Republicans say, well, we're happy with the work he's doing. We're happy that he is rolling back regulations and that he is looking at what they would consider to be more sensible regulations on big businesses, particularly oil and gas companies. But they really find it difficult to defend things that they attacked others and Democrats for, like using multiple email addresses and spending excessive amounts of money and abusing security detail.

That's all kind of stuff that most Republicans, even if they like the job that he's doing, it's kind of holding their nose to even say that they support him anymore. Pruitt is obviously already approved by the Senate. He's a member of the cabinet. The question seems to be, where's the White House and do they want to stand by him or have they softened their support of him at all? President Trump has said that he supports him. He thinks he's doing a good job. The White House this week did kind of pull back a bit in their support for him. They said that the accusations against him are serious and that he has to answer for these things that people are saying about him. And so, and I asked about that. Again, we're evaluating these concerns

and we expect the EPA administrator to answer for them, and we'll keep you posted. Aisha. Thanks. Just to follow up on that, when you say you expect the administrator to answer for these accusations, where do you expect that to happen? Are you looking forward to this in hearings? Is the White House asking any questions? We're having ongoing conversations. There you have it. They're having ongoing conversations.

This sounds really familiar. Haven't we heard this before when there were conversations about Rex Tillerson or for other other members of this White House that are no longer with us? Yeah. David Shulkin. So the this this does seem like the White House was softening a bit. Now, these hearings are probably important today and how he's handled himself. And if he can kind of show himself to be sturdy and strong and kind of stand up to these criticisms, that might kind of endear him to President Trump. He likes people that are fighters and he does like what Pruitt is doing regarding rolling back regulations. Yes, absolutely. And it's not just people in Washington. There are people all over the country who have stepped up, groups of conservatives who

have said, you've got to fight for Scott Pruitt. He is really what we're all about. And these other things, well, people do that all the time. And perhaps there you can find analogs for some of this behavior before, and it's all been criticized by whichever party was out of the White House at that time. But in this particular instance, as these hearings have unfolded so far today, he's had to admit that maybe he didn't kind of tell the whole story with respect to the raises that he had given to some of his employees. He said that that was strictly done by his staff. He had to let it be known today that he had been aware of them. He didn't know how much they were, but he did know a little bit more than he had originally told Ed Henry on Fox News in that famous interview that really has had a lot to do with how deep it

got for Scott Pruitt up to now. So this has not been a stellar day thus far for him. We'll see how the day stretches out. Generally speaking, witnesses do not ripen well as we get into the sixth, seventh, eighth hour of these kinds of grillings. And it's terribly unfair in a way, and stacking two of them in one day is scarcely to his benefit. But on the other hand, if they seventh, eighth hour of these kinds of grillings. And it's terribly unfair in a way. And stacking two of them in one day is scarcely to his benefit. But on the other hand, if they can get it all out in one day, and we've got a lot of other news to compete for the evening news tonight. And, you know, many things are going on that people are probably going to focus on first. So that could be a big break for Pruitt. It was a stellar day for one of Donald Trump's nominees. CIA Director Mike

Pompeo was confirmed to be the next Secretary of State. He was approved by a 57-42 vote. He has already been sworn in. He is now the Secretary of State. With that, we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about Robert Mueller, Michael Cohen, and yes, Stormy Daniels. And a reminder before we go, if you like the show, leave us a review on iTunes. It helps other people find the podcast. We'll be right back. Support for this NPR podcast and the following message come from Untucked. If you're wondering whether your shirt is too long to wear untucked, it probably is.

Finding a shirt that looks good untucked has been one of the biggest problems in men's fashion for years. Untuckit shirts are designed to fall at the perfect length, and the right length means the right look. So visit untuckit.com and use code POLITICS for 20% off, because the right shirt will make all the difference. Hey, I'm Kelly McEvers, host of NPR's Embedded, and we've got a new episode all about how Scott Pruitt ended up running the EPA. It's a story about Pruitt's life in the Southern Baptist Church, how he handled a major pollution case, and why he sued the EPA 14 times. Just search for Embedded on the NPR One app or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, we're back. Today on Capitol Hill, the Senate Judiciary Committee approved legislation

with bipartisan support that is aimed at protecting special counsel Robert Mueller, if maybe perhaps somebody might try to fire him. Kelsey, you were covering the hearing, you've covered the bill. What would the legislation do? Legislation would give not just Robert Mueller, but any future special counsel, they wanted to make sure that this would be something that would go on in perpetuity. So it didn't look like it was being aimed directly at President Trump. But it would allow that person 10 days to go to a judge and say, I want a review to see if my firing was legal, basically. It would also give Congress a lot more information. So if the scope of a

special investigation either got smaller or larger, the attorney general would have to notify Congress. And if there was a hiring or a firing that Congress would get additional information about all the details about why any changes were being done. Members of Congress say this is just an appropriate way for Congress to continue its job, its constitutional job of having oversight. Other people say that it's probably going too far in Congress infringing on the actions of the executive branch. And there was or there is bipartisan support for this bill. And I thought Orrin Hatch, who is the top or one of the top Republicans on the Judiciary Committee, had some very interesting comments about it.

Firing Mueller would cause a firestorm and bring the administration's agenda to a halt. It could even result in impeachment. But he also voted against this bill to protect Mueller. He is one of those people who says that there are constitutional problems with it. It ended up passing the Judiciary Committee 14 to 7 with four Republicans, including Judiciary Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley, voting with every single Democrat on the committee. Now, this is a big message. And here, let's hear from Senator Lindsey Graham, who's one of the co-sponsors of the bill, kind of explaining why they're doing this. We're not saying you can't fire somebody. We're saying somebody's going to look over

your shoulder in these hotly contested political environments. So they say it's all about the heat of a political moment and the fact that, you know, with the White House being investigated, that's what having a special counsel means, right, is that somebody in the White House is being investigated. And that creates a logical kind of conflict of interest situation where Congress feels the need to step in and alleviate some of those conflicts. What's interesting is that there's bipartisan support for this bill. There's agreement that Robert Mueller should be able to run the course of the investigation. But then, Ron, you have Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell saying this bill will never see the light of day on

the Senate floor. I mean, if there's so much support for it, why no interest in actually putting it to a vote in the Senate? First, there's no chance it's going to pass in the House. So Mitch McConnell has to ask himself, do I want to bring to the floor a bill that slaps the president in the face and that pleases the Democrats no end and that has absolutely no chance of passing in the House and that Paul Ryan has said he would not even bring to a vote. And God knows if he did, it would probably cost Paul Ryan the last few months of his speakership. So being as how it's not going to actually become law, why does Mitch McConnell want to spend a lot of time on this and give the media a field day of the Senate of the United States sending a warning shot across the bow of President Trump. That

does not help Mitch McConnell. And it probably doesn't really do that much good for his candidates this November. It's the wrong issue mix. It's the wrong set of messages for him to send. That having been said, we now know there's a clear majority in the Senate to pass the bill. So he is standing there saying it's unnecessary, saying it's potentially unconstitutional, and the rest of the Senate is looking him in the face and saying, Mitch, we're not on the same page here. You're the leader, but as others have pointed out in the past,

the majority leader needs to be, in some respect, the majority follower if he wants to keep his job. Ron, you hit on something that Sue and I have talked about. The thing that we keep hearing is the big, toxic, great sin for any Republican running for re-election right now is to appear to be against the president. Although it does seem interesting to me that there are some Republicans on Capitol Hill who do see maybe a benefit of being able to cast an affirmative vote

just to at least say they're in support of Robert Mueller. Kelsey, isn't there talk now in the Senate of maybe just trying to do a resolution, which is just sign of a toothless measure to say we back Robert Mueller? Yeah, that was one of the options that was brought up in this committee hearing. It was brought up by Senator Mike Lee and Senator John Cornyn, both Republicans, that would essentially affirm the support of the Senate for Mueller. It really wouldn't do anything. Democrats say it's kind of a silly move. We can just say we support him and do that every day.

The bigger question, I think, for a lot of Democrats and a lot of Republicans is whether or not people are willing to vote to give some teeth to keeping Mueller around. And Democrats actually see what happened in the committee as a huge victory because it makes the issue of Mueller a little less partisan. To have some Republicans on their side, to have Republicans on the record and voting as being on their side and being worried about Mueller's fate makes it so that they can now say, you know, we're not alone in this. This isn't the partisan exercise the White House believes it to be. And President Trump this morning, again on that Fox & Friends interview, did say he's not making any moves at justice, but he also did that very Trumpian left the door open. Maybe I'll change my mind in the future. So it's going to remain an open question until it's no longer a question. You know, one important thing to remember about this is that the measure is written so that it could be retroactive. So if Trump did fire Mueller, McConnell could change his mind,

they could pass this bill, and that 10-day judicial review window would immediately pop up and the court could get involved. I want to stay on the legal news of the week, but I think we have to pull the call-in-a-friend card, and so we need to bring in Ryan Lucas. Sir. Hello, Ryan. Cue the balalaika music.

I've been so deep in Ronny Jackson news, I need you to explain to me the Michael Cohen news of the week. Well, hopefully I can oblige. Okay. So, Michael Cohen, President Trump's longtime personal attorney, made news this week when he said he would invoke his Fifth Amendment rights in a lawsuit filed against the president by Stephanie Clifford, the adult film star better known as Stormy Daniels. Why is he doing that? He's doing it because he was advised by his counsel, and wisely so, according to lawyers that I've spoken with, not to talk about anything involving this case while the proceedings in the Southern District of New York are ongoing. Now, the Southern District of New York, of course, is where the FBI raided Cohen's, his home, his hotel room and his office for materials related

to a number of things, including the payment to Stormy Daniels. The reason that Cohen pleaded the fifth, I mean, it's not uncommon for defendants who are facing both a civil case and the Stormy Daniels case in Los Angeles is a civil case, and criminal prosecution, which is what he potentially faces in New York, to request from a judge what's known as a pause in civil proceedings to avoid giving sworn testimony or producing documents that could prove incriminating. So by pleading the fifth in the civil case in Los Angeles, he avoids potentially, potentially providing materials that could be incriminating in the criminal case against him in New York. Now, the president this morning, again on Fox and Friends, spoke about Michael

Cohen in a way that's gotten a lot of attention. Let's listen to the tape. Michael is in business. He's really a businessman, a fairly big business, as I understand it. I don't know his business, but this doesn't have to do with me. Michael is a businessman. He's got a business. He also practices law. I would say probably the big thing is his business. And they're looking at something having to do with his business. I have nothing to do with his business. I can tell you he's a good guy. But isn't your business, isn't his business your attorney, Mr. President? Well, I have many, many, just so you understand, I have many attorneys. I have attorneys, you, sadly, I have so many attorneys you wouldn't even believe it.

How much of your, Mr. President, how much of your legal work was handled by Michael Cohen? Well, as a percentage of my overall legal work, a tiny, tiny little fraction. But Michael would represent me and represent me on some things. He represents me like with this crazy Stormy Daniels deal. He represented me. One that seemed to be pretty big that we have the president acknowledging representation in the Stormy Daniels matter. That's the first time that he's done that. And it's also worth noting here that, you know, as little as I think three or four weeks ago,

the president said when he was asked about Stormy Daniels, he said, one, I don't know anything about it. I know nothing whatsoever. Talk to my attorney, Michael Cohen. And now he's basically saying, He's just a guy. Cohen's easy. He's a businessman. He's a businessman.

Does a little bit of legal work. He does acknowledge that the legal work that he's done, some of it at least, related to Stormy Daniels. Significant in that respect, certainly the first time that we've heard from him acknowledging that he had a role in the Stormy Daniels matter. You know, does this help Michael Cohen out? There was a court hearing today in New York in which they are fighting over the materials that the FBI seized in the raid targeting Michael Cohen. One of the arguments that Cohen's lawyers are making as to why they need to see this material first is to review it for attorney-client privilege. And here you have the president, one of three named clients that Cohen has told the court of, saying that really,

Cohen didn't do that much legal work for me, which federal prosecutors, of course, seized upon. And in a filing that they made this morning, they noted the president's comments from Fox and Friends from this morning saying that, well, you know what? It looks like there probably isn't going to be that much attorney-client privilege here because, you know what? The president says he didn't do that much legal work for him. So the president kind of stepped in it by saying,

by distancing himself by Cohen, legally speaking, maybe. He's not helping the man out. Did the court make a final ruling today? Well, what Judge Kimba Wood decided on was that she was going to appoint a special master, and she did. A former judge by the name of Barbara S. Jones, who worked for 16 years on the bench in the Southern District of New York, so knows the presiding judge in this case, Judge Wood, well from her time there. I spoke with a former federal prosecutor by the name of Harry Sandek, who had several cases in the Southern District, presided over by Judge Shones, said she's a very good pick, a very fair

judge, knows the law very well, and really you couldn't have landed upon a better selection than her. Ryan, is this the same Kimba Wood? We were talking earlier in the podcast about the Kimba Wood who was considered for attorney general 25 years ago this spring. It is, yes. This is the exact same Kimba Wood who had to withdraw. See, there are second acts in American lives. Some people are still around from that era. Ron's tying everything together with a beautiful bow.

Okay, I think with that we're going to say good day to Ryan. Get back to work. And we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about the French president's whirlwind state visit this week. Easy online custom framing for your favorite art and photos. The perfect Mother's Day gift is already on your phone. Frame it with FrameBridge. Their team will custom frame your pictures and deliver them straight to you in days. Get 15% off your first order at FrameBridge.com with promo code NPR. What's unique about the human experience?

And what do we all have in common? I'm Guy Raz. Every week on TED Radio Hour, we go on a journey through the big ideas, emotions, and discoveries that fill all of us with wonder. Find it on NPR One or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, we're back. And we are going to talk about a love affair on display in Washington this week between two world leaders. French President Emmanuel Macron. I really like saying that.

Can you say it? Am I saying it right? Emmanuel Macron. I think you have to say it with that certain French guttural. I won't try that. The less of an N, the better. Yes. French President Emmanuel Macron came to D.C. this week with his wife, Bridgette, or Brigitte, and had a multi-day visit that included symbolic planting of trees in the White House lawn, a couples dinner at Mount Vernon, a joint press conference, a state dinner, an address before Congress. A lot of touching. A lot of touching. And yes, let's start

just with what seems to be the chemistry between these two presidents. It is a true life bromance. It is just the warmth and the fuzzy feelings that were just floating around the White House. I mean, seriously, though, Macron and Trump, they were patting each other on the back. They were smiling, dusting each other's shoulders off, dusting each other's shoulders off for dandruff, holding hands, holding hands. They were talking about how much they liked each other. President Trump even stopped at one point and he told the press when they were walking to the Oval Office, he said, Macron is going to be a great French president. This is my prediction.

So, I mean, he's really just lavishing the praise onto Macron. And they just had a connection. Macron really seems to have figured Donald Trump out in that I was thinking a lot about his when the president and first lady made a visit to France last summer and how the McCrone's, you know, the dinner at the Eiffel Tower and the military parade. I mean, he really does seem to get how to schmooze this president and does it really well. They both really understand the way things look. And I think that's what you saw with the trip to Paris and what President Trump was kind of trying to return that favor when they came back or when the McCrons came here. He wanted to show them, you know, this is how this is American style. This is how we this is how we entertain. And so you had that with like the helicopter ride over D.C.

and all of that. So I think that that's what they were trying to do. So that that's really the connection. It's like a finale of The Bachelor. Helicopter rides, romantic dinners. We don't normally talk about sort of the state dinner social part of this, but because it was the first state dinner in the Trump administration, it was under a lot of scrutiny. And it seemed like it went pretty good. It was a time where President Trump could kind of show himself as a statesman.

And a big moment for First Lady Melania Trump. Exactly. And she's and she's gotten a lot of praise for the way she put on the dinner and the attention to detail and everything about the decorations and all of that that goes into a state dinner, the food, the menu. They say that the First Lady was very hands-on with all of these details, and I'm sure she was. So then they have all of these amazing optics, and then Emmanuel Macron heads to Capitol Hill for a joint address to Congress, which is often typical in these major visits. And Kelsey, this was a different tone. He delivers a different message to the Congress than the past two days with the president would have suggested, right? Yeah, he essentially took the time on the floor of the House of Representatives to rebut and take down much of what makes Trumpism an ethos, if that, you know, a political ethos.

Let's just hear some of what Macron told Congress. Let me say we have two possible ways ahead. We can choose isolationism, withdrawal, and nationalism. This is an option. It can be tempting to us as a temporary remedy to our fears. But closing the door to the world will not stop the evolution of the world. We are killing our planet. Let us face it. There is no planet B. Yeah, he also talked about fake news and used the term correctly, as in actual news that is fake and is being perpetrated by people

who would like to change the narrative with incorrect information. To protect our democracies, we have to fight against the ever-growing virus of fake news, which exposes our people to irrational fear and imaginary risks. So this got an incredibly warm response in the Congress. He also warned against withdrawing from the Iran nuclear deal. Ron, how do we square these two McCrons? Well, like the cherry blossoms, they're fragile. These bromances in the spring. They come and go. Macron was careful not to say terrible things about Donald Trump.

So without the president's name, perhaps it didn't seem quite so direct, but it was stunning that he would turn so 180 the very next day and be in a completely different attitude towards the administration that he was here visiting and celebrating and toasting the night before. You know, and it's interesting that it was also received well by Republicans in Congress. That part surprised me. As I talked to Republicans today, they were quite happy with that speech. Ayesha, did the White House have any reaction to the congressional address? Well, I know even today, President Trump was asked about Macron, and he's had nothing but glowing things to say about him. So I don't think that President Trump takes it personally when

there are disagreements on policy. I think for him, it's all about that personal chemistry. Now, the question is, does that chemistry actually translate into action? And it doesn't really seem like Macron, even though they had this great bromance, was able to convince President Trump to make any changes to the idea of the Iran nuclear deal or certainly not to get back into the Paris climate change agreement or anything like that. So it's not really clear that even though they're close, what really will come of it. And what did Macron have to say about Iran? Well, Macron, he wants the White House or wants the United States to stay in the Iran nuclear deal.

He says that, no, that deal is not perfect, but we shouldn't get rid of it without having something to replace it. Instead, he said that we should keep that deal and then build on to it and address some of the concerns that President Trump has raised about this deal. And President Trump has said repeatedly it's a really bad deal. Isn't there sort of an upcoming deadline about the Iran deal that this could be a decision point for him? Yeah. So there's a May 12th deadline where President Trump has to decide whether he's going to stay in the Iran nuclear deal. Right now, he was saying, even with Macron with him, he was talking about how bad the deal is, how it's kind of on a decaying foundation. He was making it clear he's not a fan of the deal.

And Macron said publicly he does not think that President Trump will stay in the deal. This is one of those weeks in Washington that I refer to as a Shonda week, because if you took all of the plot points that unfolded in the past four days and put them into a one-hour script for a Shonda Rhimes show, even Shonda Rhimes viewers would be like, this would never happen. It's too much. It's too much. It's too much. One last thing about the expression of pleasure that the president has given over the French visit. Yes, he does like the personal side a great deal. He also knows what people have seen and what they're going to remember. He's extremely good at judging what

the media impression of a particular event is. He knows people aren't going to think about that congressional speech. They're not going to have that in their minds in the same way that they have all the pictures of him making buddy-buddy with his new pal, Emmanuel. This is what people are going to remember. Okay, let's move on to everyone's favorite part of the podcast, where we all talk about the one thing we can't let go this week, politics or otherwise. Aisha, since this is our first pod together, I'm going to let you go first. Well, thank you. So this week, I can't let go of Kanye West. Yeah. You and a lot of other people.

I know. Well, and so last week, if anyone listened then, I talked about a rapper and an unlikely political partner, Cardi B and Bernie Sanders. And this week, we have Kanye West and President Trump. How do we even explain this? So Kanye West has gotten back on Twitter and he has thoughts. He has in a big way, as usual. And so one thing that he tweeted this week was, you know, just to condense it a little bit. He said, you don't have to agree with Trump, but the mob can't make me not love him. We are both dragon energy. And so he goes on to say he's his brother. So he was just showing his love for President Trump. He

did see him during the transition. They did meet at Trump Tower, but we hadn't really heard much from Kanye on President Trump since then. And so he's making it clear, I still really like him. And he even tweeted a picture of the hat, make America great again. And then of course, President Trump being President Trump, he's going to respond. So he tweets, Oh, thank you, Kanye. Very cool. He's kind of like, you know, like that parent. Oh, very cool. So he was very excited about this love being shown to him by Kanye West. And even when he was at, President Trump was asked about it this morning in the Fox and Friends interview, and he brought it back to low black unemployment. He said, that's why Kanye

likes him so much. So, you know, so there is a little bromance there. And so the reason why I can't let go, I can kind of let go of Kanye. But the reason why I brought this up is because my little cousin, Essence, who I'm very close to, she's like a little sister to me. She's 16. She messaged me late last night and was like, Aisha, I got a topic you should talk about on your radio show. Now, I don't have a radio show. Not yet. Not yet. But I was like, what's that? And she was like,

Kanye West. And so I can't let go of Essence, my little cousin. And so that's why I can't let go of Kanye West. This one's for Essence? This is for her. One of the through the looking glass moments of the many that we go through is watching sort of conservative thinkers and writers embrace Kanye West. I know. He called him iconic. What is happening? It's 2018. It's 2018.

Yeah. Kelsey, what can't you let go this week? Today is one of the more fun days on Capitol Hill. It is Take Your Sons and Daughters to Work Day. And that means that the Speaker of the House and Nancy Pelosi, the minority leader in the House, have press conferences with little kids. And it is by far one of the funniest times that you get to watch either of them interact with reporters because it's reporters and their kids. So Ryan's press conference was a little bit on the buttoned-up side.

People came in. The first question was from a Fox News correspondent's son who was asking about the debt and deficit. Kids are really obsessed with the debt and deficit, guys. It's from a Fox News correspondent's son who was asking about the debt and deficit. Kids are really obsessed with the debt and deficit, guys. You can hear it. It's their money. It's all they talk about. The kid was getting the microphone, getting ready to ask his question. Here's what, you know, Ryan gave him some instructions.

Here's what he said. You have to state your name and who you're with and then ask the question. So if Ryan's press conference was a little bit stayed, Nancy Pelosi went and sat on a chair in the middle of a sea of children, including like four or five little toddlers who were just wandering around in circles and climbing up into her lap. At one point in time, this one little girl got in her lap, and Pelosi started to talk to her and wanted to know if she had a question. Do you have a question?

Do you have a question? And instead, they decided to sing. A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, M, N, O, P, Q, I, S, T, O. Everybody had a great time, and they cheered. And then there was time for one more question, and the kid walks up. They get handed over to him. What is policy? time. They cheered. And then there was time for one more question. And the kid walks up.

They get handed over to him. What is policy? What is policy? What is policy? What is policy? That's a question that the ancients have been asking for thousands of years. It was really fun. And throughout the day today, we had little kids riding up and down in the elevators. They all went and got to go look at the mall in Chuck Schumer's office on the Senate side. It was a really nice day up here. I will tell you, no matter how old you are, riding the trains in the Capitol, still fun. Super fun. Still fun.

Still fun for me, too. Ron, I don't know what you can't let go this week, but I'm excited to hear it because the only note written down on my piece of paper here just says, Ron, follow up on marijuana. So lay it on me, Ron. What can't you let go this week? My can't let it go is my last can't let it go a little bit because we talked about John Boehner becoming a representative for part of the marijuana industry and how that was a big turnaround for John Boehner, who used to oppose the legalization of marijuana. Apparently, he is on to something in terms of a national trend. Because the Quinnipiac poll asked people how many people favored the legalization of marijuana. And 63%, by an almost two-to-one margin, Americans now support the legalization of marijuana. Now, we're not attributing all of that to John Boehner. And since we don't have a good visual for that, I think we have to refer to the visual of Mitt Romney wearing a Utah Jazz jersey for the playoffs this week in a state where he's not native and where the Jazz franchise is

not native, but where he's locked in a tough primary for a Senate seat. And it's safe to say he probably was not under the influence of marijuana at that basketball game. Certainly did not want to imply that Mitt Romney, a good Mormon, would... The juxtaposition of those two thoughts there. But it's no stranger than the juxtaposition with John Boehner. So who knows? So Sue, what can't you let go this week? I can't let go what I'm calling Melania's formation hat, which if we go back to the moments of President Macron's state visit, Melania Trump had a one of her a major fashion moment at the official state greeting where she wore this very elegant white suit. But she wore the most amazing,

hard brimmed white hat. It was cool. That looked like the white version of the black hat that Beyonce wears in the formation video. It's sort of low on her forehead. It's hard to see her face. And it was the designer that did it is a man named Hervé Pierre. I hope I'm saying his name right. He's a longtime fashion designer. He's worked with the last four first ladies. And this outfit was part of the long planned. This wasn't a last minute decision, right? She wasn't walking out the door and was like, oh, maybe I'll put this hat on. It was like part of the statement outfit. Carefully vetted.

Carefully vetted hat. And it got a ton of attention. It even became it's become a meme of certain points. There was this moment at the end of the press conference where the two presidents are walking away and Melania stands up and you just see this white hat rise up into the shot of the TV. She wore it all day as she toured Washington with the first lady of France. And Robin Gavon, who is the longtime fashion writer for the Washington Post, wrote a whole column about the hat. And I just thought she was so eloquent in the way she described it because the hat was also the statement about who Melania is as first lady. And she wrote, it was the bright white hat of a gladiator worn on an overcast day, a kind of glamorous public shield when sunglasses would not do.

The hat was a force field that kept folks, the wrong folks, from getting too close. It was a diva crown, a grand gesture of independence, a church hat. The Lord is my shepherd. Deliver us from evil. Amen. That's not a... Whoa, Robin. That, now that is a hat. Yeah, we referenced Shonda Rhimes earlier

and that is the theme of Scandal, now our dearly departed Scandal, which ended last week. That was Olivia Pope's thing when she wore a white hat. Yeah, and I saw the comparisons there too that it was like, and then someone, I saw a funny tweet that was like, the reboot of Scandal that I am in for. It was just a picture of Melania with the hat. Yeah. And with that, that's it for today.

We'll be back in your feed soon. Keep up with our coverage on NPR.org, NPR Politics on Facebook, and of course, as always, on your local public radio station. I'm Susan Davis. I cover Congress. I'm Aisha Roscoe. I cover the White House. I'm Kelsey Snell. I also cover Congress. And I'm Ron Elving, editor-correspondent. And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.